[Iamamartianchurch]

What I find amusing is that I said plainly that someone may be able to correct me on this. If you found an error you could have simply and civily informed me of that error. I usually have it out with Snake13 and even we managed to just talk through this one without debating.

[Umami]

Originally Posted by sucka T.

You aren't answering because you are making up stuff. Tell me how a shareholder or an investor "shuffles money around to make more money". Then explain in your opinion how wealth would or would not be created from that process. If you want to be ignorant and naive then do so, but don't make stuff up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_engineering

They are literally engineering markets for the sake of making money off of money. There is no concern for a final product to be provided to consumers in these marketplaces.

[StellarKnight]

Originally Posted by Umami

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_engineering

They are literally engineering markets for the sake of making money off of money. There is no concern for a final product to be provided to consumers in these marketplaces.

Hell, there's a decent argument to be made that the entire concept of insurance is little more than such a scheme.

[AlphaNeo36]

Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch

That's probably it. You passed the test. Here have a chocolate chip brownie muffin my insignificant other baked. Wait. No. These are MY cookie brownie muffins.

How dare you ****ing troll me when you don't respond immediately. Grade A *******.

[Umami]

Originally Posted by StellarKnight

Hell, there's a decent argument to be made that the entire concept of insurance is little more than such a scheme.

Probably. But it's not far enough removed from consumers to be an issue.

From what I can tell, the real issue arises when you have financial products based on financial products based on financial products. Investment becomes N times removed from the commodity being invested in, and investors no longer have a real evaluation of risk. As soon as accurate evaluations of risk become detached from investment, greed inevitably takes over and you end up with financial products that exist solely for the purpose of creating a "financial" "product".

Just an outsider's perspective.

[Iamamartianchurch]

Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36

How dare you ****ing troll me when you don't respond immediately. Grade A *******.

God forbid anyone to take the time to collect their thoughts before they speak.

Also,

"I'm going to call you names, then I expect you to answer my questions"

[AlphaNeo36]

That was probably the most inconsiderate thing I have ever seen you do. Apologize to sucka t right meow.

Anyway, you could easily look at short selling during the start of the financial crisis. It was fairly common to see investors taking advantage of the situation by driving the price of stocks down to make a profit. That involves moving money around to make a profit, hell, so does the entire stock market. It's a little difficult to be wrong here without specifics.

[sucka T.]

Originally Posted by Umami

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_engineering

They are literally engineering markets for the sake of making money off of money. There is no concern for a final product to be provided to consumers in these marketplaces.

Originally Posted by Umami

Probably. But it's not far enough removed from consumers to be an issue.

From what I can tell, the real issue arises when you have financial products based on financial products based on financial products. Investment becomes N times removed from the commodity being invested in, and investors no longer have a real evaluation of risk. As soon as accurate evaluations of risk become detached from investment, greed inevitably takes over and you end up with financial products that exist solely for the purpose of creating a "financial" "product".

Just an outsider's perspective.

Now finally here is a ****ing fantastic substantive argument from someone who has a brain. I see the point you are trying to make. Thank you.

I have taken a couple college level corporate finance classes, so I am not completely retarded contrary to the belief of the trolls on this forum.

My argument is this. At what point is trading assets considered just "shuffling around money". If you buy and sell houses are you considered a money shuffler because you are buying assets and selling them? Does buying and selling houses not create wealth? Why is it different if you are selling securities that suddenly it isn't creating wealth by making money. Why are selling micro shares of stocks, bonds, and other securities considered shuffling money around when a house flipper isn't. Just because assets are in the form of securities doesn't constitute shuffling money around to create more money. Yes creating a financial product off of another financial product is a way to make money. Just because financial assets are being layered and layered doesn't mean a new market is based off of nothing but pure imaginary assets. If you want to say the stock market is merely moving money around to create more money, then i would have to disagree. Moving assets around is how wealth is created in every business. Then every business would be considered "just moving money around to create more money and not creating any additional wealth". Feel free to dissect my post and point to where my thinking is flawed.

EDIT: Yes I understand I responded like a douche. Jesus. Forgive me already.