[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by JC001

And If you check my BST history you will see that I sold my Eigenbarrel.

So you sold something that was damaged?

[JC001]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

So you sold something that was damaged?

I normally respect your posts but in this thread you are clearly riding on a high horse and looking to generate a response out of me.

The Lurker Barrels are marketed improperly. They suggest using them with an under bore of up to .004. This simply does not work and generates tuns of breaks and screw balls. I purchased a bunch of stuff from lurker.

*Lurker Lube - worst lube I have ever seen
*Lurker Eigenram and golden poppet for an F8 - caused nothing but problems
*Lurker Eigenbarrel - Bored way to small to ever be practical.


The barrel wasn't damaged. And yes, believe it or not I do know how to bore paint. Perhaps his .684 barrel is decent but the .678 is bored way to small to ever be usefull. And after my very negative experience with the rest of his products, why would I give him another cent?

[BurningPlaydoh]

Originally Posted by JC001

I normally respect your posts but in this thread you are clearly riding on a high horse and looking to generate a response out of me.

The Lurker Barrels are marketed improperly. They suggest using them with an under bore of up to .004. This simply does not work and generates tuns of breaks and screw balls. I purchased a bunch of stuff from lurker.

*Lurker Lube - worst lube I have ever seen
*Lurker Eigenram and golden poppet for an F8 - caused nothing but problems
*Lurker Eigenbarrel - Bored way to small to ever be practical.


The barrel wasn't damaged. And yes, believe it or not I do know how to bore paint. Perhaps his .684 barrel is decent but the .678 is bored way to small to ever be usefull. And after my very negative experience with the rest of his products, why would I give him another cent?

So because the barrel is too small for the paint you use it is poorly made? I wont even comment on the other products.

Empire has a .675 bore insert for the super freak kit and my friend has had paint that almost rolls through it.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by JC001

I normally respect your posts but in this thread you are clearly riding on a high horse and looking to generate a response out of me.

Sorry you feel that way, but it's actually not my intent. I only have the context of your posts to draw my conclusions and it seemed you had a damaged barrel based on what you wrote.

Originally Posted by JC001

The Lurker Barrels are marketed improperly. They suggest using them with an under bore of up to .004. This simply does not work and generates tuns of breaks and screw balls.

Were you aware that an entire test was done on the topic? http://www.punkworkspaintball.com/index.php?p=7&id=43 .004 is tiny and is probably a tighter tolerance than the ball to ball variance. Science, not anecdotal evidence, says it does work.

Originally Posted by JC001

I purchased a bunch of stuff from lurker.

*Lurker Lube - worst lube I have ever seen
*Lurker Eigenram and golden poppet for an F8 - caused nothing but problems
*Lurker Eigenbarrel - Bored way to small to ever be practical.

Lurker lube is not my preferred lube (I actually prefer militia v2), but when used as a replacement for dow33 I have never seen a single issue.

As for the F8 eigenram, I have no experience with the product. I had some issues with the eigenram on my gen4 timmy, but in general his products work quite well.

As for the eigenbarrel, .678 works perfect for some of the tiny garbage we have in our area. If I start busting balls then I switch to the .684, but that is more related to the paint and not the design of the barrel.

Originally Posted by JC001

The barrel wasn't damaged. And yes, believe it or not I do know how to bore paint. Perhaps his .684 barrel is decent but the .678 is bored way to small to ever be usefull. And after my very negative experience with the rest of his products, why would I give him another cent?

You think that if you sent him a PM or email he wouldn't have tried to help you out? I am eagerly awaiting the next batch of barrels to be made so he'll make some ~.690 or so. That way I have a well designed barrel that I can work around the paint available.

My biggest issue in all of this is that the barrel, at the end of the day, is just a pipe. The manufacturers use different control bore lengths, porting and honing techniques but at the end of the day there's only so much a pipe can do. Breaking paint isn't one that would change from manufacturer when bored to the same diameter.

[mo-teggy]

the sm1 orbium kit is my favorite. I was lucky and had a buddy selling his. they can be pretty pricey.

[Buster Hymen]

Just picked up a super freak kit for my Son's Axe......amazed that it only takes 2 revolutions to screw the back into the gun compared to 5 1/2 for the stock barrel.
Definitely an advantage that I haven't heard mentioned much.

[Weroliera (Banned)]

Originally Posted by Buster Hymen

Just picked up a super freak kit for my Son's Axe......amazed that it only takes 2 revolutions to screw the back into the gun compared to 5 1/2 for the stock barrel.
Definitely an advantage that I haven't heard mentioned much.

Really?
That sounds crazy wicked

[BurningPlaydoh]

Originally Posted by Buster Hymen

Just picked up a super freak kit for my Son's Axe......amazed that it only takes 2 revolutions to screw the back into the gun compared to 5 1/2 for the stock barrel.
Definitely an advantage that I haven't heard mentioned much.

Huh? There should be the same number of threads.

[JC001]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Sorry you feel that way, but it's actually not my intent. I only have the context of your posts to draw my conclusions and it seemed you had a damaged barrel based on what you wrote.

No worries buddy. I hope you have a good weekend.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Were you aware that an entire test was done on the topic? http://www.punkworkspaintball.com/index.php?p=7&id=43 .004 is tiny and is probably a tighter tolerance than the ball to ball variance. Science, not anecdotal evidence, says it does work.

That test is part of the misleading marketing I'm talking about. That punkswork test is pseudo-science at best. If you think that is a good example of scientific method... well.. I don't know what to say. Small possibly biased samples of one balling paintball guns in a basement does not scientifically prove anything.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

My biggest issue in all of this is that the barrel, at the end of the day, is just a pipe. The manufacturers use different control bore lengths, porting and honing techniques but at the end of the day there's only so much a pipe can do. Breaking paint isn't one that would change from manufacturer when bored to the same diameter.

The Lurker barrels are essentially one long control bore. As such, under-boring with one exerts more force on the paintball for a longer period of time then if one were to under-bore with any other barrel. Most manufacturers have a control bore and then a tip with a wider radius to allow the paintball to stabilize a bit before leaving the barrel.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

.004 is tiny and is probably a tighter tolerance than the ball to ball variance.

I disagree, however, if that is the case then I was only under-boring by about .003-.004 when I had my eigenbarrel and it was blending paint like a mofo and when it wasn't blending it was shooting curve balls.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by JC001

That test is part of the misleading marketing I'm talking about. That punkswork test is pseudo-science at best. If you think that is a good example of scientific method... well.. I don't know what to say. Small possibly biased samples of one balling paintball guns in a basement does not scientifically prove anything.

Not that you care, but I do have an extensive background in statistics so I am well aware of some of the issues with the test. Not to insult your intelligence, but a human hair averages .004" in diameter. Stop to think about the best case of paint you've ever shot and I can guarantee the variance is MUCH more than that. So basically even enough drag to stop a ball from rolling through is probably more than .004". The way I size my barrels is I take about 10 balls and push them in one by one and tilt the barrel slowly. If they roll with no resistance then I move down a size. If they don't move then I go up a size. I like them to catch just a little, but blow out VERY easily.


To the OP, not that this sidebar should really detract from your original question, but barrels are very preferential. I go back to my statement that they're basically just pipes with holes in them. Some look cool, some have a lot of small holes (lurker), some have fewer big holed (boomstick) and all of them accomplish the same task. When the porting starts, the air behind the ball stops accelerating it (so you've gained all the velocity you will from the shot) which is why some can help efficiency.

[JC001]

^Lol, cool tidbit about the hair. Regardless, .004 on a barrel can be the differance between an under-bore and an over-bore (you know that). Anyways, take care bud.

[[NA]WARLORD]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

This is idiotic. What exactly do you think a barrel can affect? Accuracy? Nope. Trajectory? Except apex and flatline nope again. So what can a barrel affect? Noise and efficiency (from under boring and the right length control bore). That said barrel results don't vary.

Umm, yeah, they do.

Accuracy - absolutely - if your not bore sizing or underboring, then yes, it will have an effect on accuracy. Bore = inside of barrel. So if your bore is to big, your barrel will effect your accuracy depending solely on your paint. I agree with dude above, Cockerpunks research was very vague and shooting in a controlled atmosphere (his basement) vs outside where weather, humidity and wind can change even the slightest variable of his test makes his experiment inconclusive to me.

Trajectory - depends solely on the velocity your shooting. More equals greater distance, unless a spin is added to the ball then it can travel further.

Noise - anyone around long enough knows, more porting equals less noise, but also effects efficiency as well.

Bore length - 8-10" is the optimal length for a ball to get up to speed, anything after that is equal to drag and will slow the ball down. Tom Kaye from AGD proved this years ago here - Read This, This, and This.
I would tend to take an industry icon like Tom Kaye's word over anything Cockerpunk would say, but thats just me.



Also Aluminum swells/contracts in extreme heat and cold, I have seen with my very eyes a Freak insert swell in 100* heat from a .682 - .685. If you were using the .682 to underbore your paint, then you were losing efficiency by the afternoon with aluminum inserts. Will the Lurker barrel swell/contract, in extreme measures, sure, but not as bad as a Freak insert.

Also, there are always tolerance differences in every batch of barrels made, as they are not all made at the same time. They are made in batches based on demand, ask Lurker if every barrel he ever made had any blemishes, rough spots or damages, I will bet my weekly pay check he has thrown away quite a few, if not re-cycled them somehow. All barrels are not created equal even if they are the same design and brand.

[BurningPlaydoh]

Originally Posted by [NA]WARLORD

Umm, yeah, they do.

Accuracy - absolutely - if your not bore sizing or underboring, then yes, it will have an effect on accuracy. Bore = inside of barrel. So if your bore is to big, your barrel will effect your accuracy depending solely on your paint. I agree with dude above, Cockerpunks research was very vague and shooting in a controlled atmosphere (his basement) vs outside where weather, humidity and wind can change even the slightest variable of his test makes his experiment inconclusive to me.

Trajectory - depends solely on the velocity your shooting. More equals greater distance, unless a spin is added to the ball then it can travel further.

Noise - anyone around long enough knows, more porting equals less noise, but also effects efficiency as well.

Bore length - 8-10" is the optimal length for a ball to get up to speed, anything after that is equal to drag and will slow the ball down. Tom Kaye from AGD proved this years ago here - Read This, This, and This.
I would tend to take an industry icon like Tom Kaye's word over anything Cockerpunk would say, but thats just me.



Also Aluminum swells/contracts in extreme heat and cold, I have seen with my very eyes a Freak insert swell in 100* heat from a .682 - .685. If you were using the .682 to underbore your paint, then you were losing efficiency by the afternoon with aluminum inserts. Will the Lurker barrel swell/contract, in extreme measures, sure, but not as bad as a Freak insert.

Also, there are always tolerance differences in every batch of barrels made, as they are not all made at the same time. They are made in batches based on demand, ask Lurker if every barrel he ever made had any blemishes, rough spots or damages, I will bet my weekly pay check he has thrown away quite a few, if not re-cycled them somehow. All barrels are not created equal even if they are the same design and brand.

Only a massive underbore will negatively affect accuracy. And to say that his test should have been done outdoors shows why the tests are so misunderstood by the paintball community; the whole point of an experiment is to have a control and change one variable, which in this case was the barrel. If they had done the tests in an environment with wind then all their results would have been incredibly skewed by that.

[blueshifty]

Barrel fitment has absolutely no effect on accuracy. The roundness of the ball is all that matters. Everything else you said is pretty much true.

[Lurker27]

In some cases yes, there have been barrels that were returned to me. Of these, about half were obviously environmental damage. The rest were coating issues, which usually has to do with something in the daw material not picking up ano as well as the rest. ANY part in this industry will have done scrap rate, which is why customer service is so important. One of the reasons I still sell direct rather than use a distribution model is the ability to directly help anyone with such an issue.

Anyway, there maybe some ways I can think of that a barrel would help with accuracy, but without buying the best paint you can find you would never see any signal.

[SKI008]

Originally Posted by Lurker27

Anyway, there maybe some ways I can think of that a barrel would help with accuracy, but without buying the best paint you can find you would never see any signal.

That.

The reason so many people are so divisive about everything barrel-related is because the one thing that makes the most difference in regards to accuracy is the paint you are shooting and that is also the most inconsistent factor out of everything else on your gun.

I play pump and the paint where I play is absolutely microscopic so I religiously recommend people underbore when they ask. If you live somewhere super humid and with paint the size of coconuts then that might not work so well for you but at the end of the day the one thing that affects your accuracy more than anything else is the quality of your paintballs.

I will say the Punkworks test has influenced my barrel selection (well that and playing pump). I've underbored for years and have never ran into a situation where I was breaking more paint than anyone else (at least that was caused by the barrel, I've had some truly atrocious paint that wouldn't make it out of any sized barrel attached to any gun from my .679 to my .695. Obviously that's not the barrel breaking paint). .678 is not going to be too small for most people unless paint in California is like .01 in different from paint elsewhere (which I doubt but then again I haven't played paintball in all that many locations so it could very well be true).

[TS4life]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

This is idiotic. What exactly do you think a barrel can affect? Accuracy? Nope. Trajectory? Except apex and flatline nope again. So what can a barrel affect? Noise and efficiency (from under boring and the right length control bore). That said barrel results don't vary.



Clean it and inspect for damage. Barrels don't blend paint if properly sized.

Not to intervene but boring does affect accuracy, not the barrel itself though. Not sure if you meant the barrel as a whole or bore sizing...

[tlmiller]

Originally Posted by SKI008

That.

The reason so many people are so divisive about everything barrel-related is because the one thing that makes the most difference in regards to accuracy is the paint you are shooting and that is also the most inconsistent factor out of everything else on your gun.

I play pump and the paint where I play is absolutely microscopic so I religiously recommend people underbore when they ask. If you live somewhere super humid and with paint the size of coconuts then that might not work so well for you but at the end of the day the one thing that affects your accuracy more than anything else is the quality of your paintballs.

I will say the Punkworks test has influenced my barrel selection (well that and playing pump). I've underbored for years and have never ran into a situation where I was breaking more paint than anyone else (at least that was caused by the barrel, I've had some truly atrocious paint that wouldn't make it out of any sized barrel attached to any gun from my .679 to my .695. Obviously that's not the barrel breaking paint). .678 is not going to be too small for most people unless paint in California is like .01 in different from paint elsewhere (which I doubt but then again I haven't played paintball in all that many locations so it could very well be true).

Agreed, I've had paint in AZ that rolled through a .679 bore in the last 6 months when I didn't have my J&J with me.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by TS4life

Not to intervene but boring does affect accuracy, not the barrel itself though. Not sure if you meant the barrel as a whole or bore sizing...

Barrel as a whole. Bore sizing affects consistency.