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Old 02-20-2013, 06:44 PM #1
TherealInsomniac
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Green names and the new influx of "pro teams"

This came up in a news thread, john directed me here. I have a few ideas about how to handle this. I think we all agree that the green names should still mean something. and not be handed out to every kid who thinks playing in a pro division is enough to be considered a pro player. Most of us believe there is some expectation of success and validity that come with the posts of a green-named-member.

heres is my initial ideas:I figured that send you a message with my thoughts about playing pro and earning a green name. I have two thoughts
version 1)
all pros active from last season in the NPPL and PSP get to keep thier green name.
any inactive players (those who have not showed up on a roster for two seasons) get a red name. Official coaching staff not included. they can keep green.

moving forward green names would be automatically awarded to players who have earned pro spots in the PSP by playing two events in the Champions. If they play pro in the Challengers, NPPL, CXBL, Millennium or UWL they must also earn semi-pro status in the APPA.

OR Versions 2)

everyone playing top level in any national/international league for a full season gets a name. (that's all events of one of the leagues, including playoffs if applicable.). playing one or more pro events in all 5 leagues would also qualify. They must remain in that league the following year or be changed to red. Miss one event for any reason and you don't earn it.

in both instances green names retain their privileges, and red names are only there to recognize a former pro player....

green would not be awarded until they meet the criteria, and lying about it would be a perm-bannable offense.

names on APPA are super easy to find. The CXBL makes it pretty easy too. You can see each roster and how many matches that player played.
The issue is the other three have no data base of such a thing.
In these instances it would be up tp that individual to prove without a shadow of a doubt that they played on the pro roster for team X, for each league, which could then be verified either by a league official, the teams official coach, or other green players.

thoughts?
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:22 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
moving forward green names would be automatically awarded to players who have earned pro spots in the PSP by playing two events in the Champions. If they play pro in the Challengers, NPPL, CXBL, Millennium or UWL they must also earn semi-pro status in the APPA.
While we're on the subject of what divisions warrant pro status, it's also worth noting that people may not view each league as equal in "pro" skill. For example, there may be numerous quality players in pro NPPL or UWL, but many people would argue that NPPL and woodsball players are not equal to, say, pro PSP players, with the obvious exception being the pro PSP players participating in those leagues. During the season that the USPL/NPPL used APPA registration, players in the NPPL pro division received as low as a division 2 classification when transferred to the PSP. I'm not knocking NPPL or UWL, but I'd like to point out that once you start sorting out what's pro and what's not, you also need to take into account what you define as pro and what leagues are considered up to par. There may be quite a few below the belt jokes going around about what constitutes pro in a certain league, but there's still some validity to their message.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:52 PM #3
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Who is going to monitor and change all of the names? That is the only issue I see with getting this detailed and updating red/green names... the time and effort required on pbn's end.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:12 PM #4
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Who is going to monitor and change all of the names? That is the only issue I see with getting this detailed and updating red/green names... the time and effort required on pbn's end.
The main issue is not the labor involved in assignment of pro tags. We already do this by hand. The issue is reasonably determining who deserves a pro tag and who doesn't. That's what this thread needs to address.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:22 PM #5
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That's always bugged me John...
But how can you take away old pro's green names? They were at some point a paintball professional. Some of them are big paintball names.
If they play/have played pro pb, and that's what the tag represents, you should give every player a green name.

If it's current pros... then anyone that played pro in 2012 or any event in 2013 should get the green as well.
That's my post from the other thread.

I really like this idea vvv -minus the color red to represent older pros

Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
version 1)
all pros active from last season in the NPPL and PSP get to keep thier green name.
any inactive players (those who have not showed up on a roster for two seasons) get a red name. Official coaching staff not included. they can keep green.

moving forward green names would be automatically awarded to players who have earned pro spots in the PSP by playing two events in the Champions. If they play pro in the Challengers, NPPL, CXBL, Millennium or UWL they must also earn semi-pro status in the APPA.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:59 PM #6
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This still doesn't address the question of what constitutes a pro rank. The points are only one of many factors that come into play in recognizing a true pro player. If you're picking and choosing who deserves it and who doesn't, you need to use a reasonable standard in doing so and you need to take into account the format, general competitiveness of the league, and all that good stuff. Much of that is more of a judgment call than fact.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:22 PM #7
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thats what I was suggesting. a set forth clear criteria. when it is met then the tag is applied.
the red names are because I think to be considered a pro player, you must actually be playing, or otherwise involved with a pro team such as coaching... the red isn't to indicate older pros, but rather retired or inactive.

I dont think theres any question that the the PSP is the premier league. anyone playing in the champions 2 or more times has earned it.
the challengers is another story. playing here you must reach semi-pro in points (meaning a decent bit of challengers success).

the NPPL has really diluted its product. 4 of the top 6 teams have left the league, including its champions. filling those holes are unproven APPA divisional players essentially being bodies to bear some cost in running the league. players playing here must also acquire semi-pro rank through continued success in D1 or marginal in champions in PSP.

It is of my opinion that the CXBL elite divison is roughly of the same quality as the current state of NPPL a few very good teams and players (like heat, damage, frank connell, G-no, and thomas taylor) but mostly mid range divisional players. players playing here must also meet semi-pro. same reason as above. is actually even easier than NPPL to see who was on what roster and how much and how well they've played. there are some good teams at the top, but the mid and low end are right around D1 of PSP

the Millennium is tougher to judge, I do think its stronger competition than the NPPL or NPPL. I also think that when discussing league quality, one must compare to the top. Now initially i thought that CPL players need only acquire a D1 rank in the PSP, however I reconsidered since this year the top euros will nearly all be in the psp pros in some form or another.

the UWL does have its pro, but its a totally different format. this is the one I'm most unsure of how to value, since the skills needed to be a successful pro. o I went with consistent standards. play to league here, and earn semi-pro in PSP.

now the reason I wanted to include playing one event in all leagues is because that **** is hard. only a few people play all of them and all of them are already green. and if not the sheer milage and heart that it takes should earn them that.

for version two I suggested because its just easier.
See appa : 5 events = Green
See Xball.com 8matches= green
any player in the nppl UWL or Mills : he/she submits their name, and the rosters he was on. official 3rd party verify>
any one caught lying about who they were rostered on is permed.
etc.
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:38 PM #8
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I meant I don't think it's an appropriate color for what it is lol. Red is usually thought of in a negative way. And sorry I meant old as in retired as well.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:02 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
thats what I was suggesting. a set forth clear criteria. when it is met then the tag is applied.
the red names are because I think to be considered a pro player, you must actually be playing, or otherwise involved with a pro team such as coaching... the red isn't to indicate older pros, but rather retired or inactive.
While I agree with your system, we're still discriminating in a way against certain leagues and the way that happens is not entirely objective. I completely agree that there are some people that really don't deserve that badge, but at the same time as a player you would not appreciate being told by a D4 forum moderator that you don't count as pro. I know it may seem ambiguous but I'm pretty much on the same page as John with this one. I agree the system is not perfect and something should be done about it, but I cannot see a completely fair way to fix it that does not screw over players from certain leagues. Maybe other moderators feel differently but that's just me. I think you're on the right track by trying to incorporate APPA ranking and success into the decision making process.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:06 AM #10
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A big reason that this should be addressed is that there is a big discrepancy in the quality of competition in the leagues. The leagues created this by the psp allowing more teams in, and the nppl allowing anyone one in.
So who will be the decides of the criteria. Is should be consistent and not impossible to reach for the newer guys but also should be strict enough to still carry weight. I get what you're day "who gets to say who is and who isn't?"...
There are reasonably 2 parties that can create the rules.
1) the court of public appeals. Where pro players earn the tag through respect and accomplishment within their league.
2)the head brass of pbn. Its their website and It is them who awards the tags so shouldn't they have a large day who gets it? Through a consistent set of rules and accomplishments they create a system whereby people cannot deny the tag. Because once it's achieved, there isn't a subjective matter.
I prefer the second option. It creates an achievable goal. And won't be on the whims of inexperienced players. They don't even need to be competitive achievements. Just being professional a la nick slowiak. An ambassador to the sport. Tireless promotion etc.

The rules are subjective but again, it's pbns prerogative to create the rules. Maybe by polling coaches and current greens with ideas, maybe just by saying "our site, our rules"
Keep in mind I do play in 2 of those leagues. 3 after this year. So with my suggestion I would be excluding myself here too. I don't believe I deserve a green name. And there's others who've accomplished less than me who very well could get one because they compete in the correct non Psp pro leagues.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:07 PM #11
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I like the idea of changing up the way the "GREEN" is handed out.

Where is the original thread?
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:14 PM #12
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I like the idea of changing up the way the "GREEN" is handed out.

Where is the original thread?
It came up at the end of a random news thread. I think it was the xsv thread iirc.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:28 PM #13
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Why not make two subforums next to eachother, they update them after every event. Technically, everyone in the Challengers and Champions Division should be considered Pro, although some see it as only being temperamental while you're in the champions division.

So lemme try to explain. Make two Sub-forums so NPPL and PSP teams are separated. In the PSP sub-forum, split it up into two sections, with a Champions division and a Challengers division. After every event, flip the teams in-between the two forums respective to their position. Idk if it is possible to just move forums around in VBulletin while keeping the threads, but that is the only logical thing I can think of that would work effectively.

As for the green names, pleasepleaseplease don't hand 'em out like candy. It's too easy of a solution lol.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:11 PM #14
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Def of Pro

My son said something interesting to me. "I never noticed the names were colored and meant anything. Doesn't matter to me either way. The team forums would be cool though."

While PBN could debate the NPPL Pro status forever, there is no doubting some teams have earned a forum!

Example - Paxson, Laysoya and Mickowski are on a team, right? Along with a few guys on the team Pax played with in D1 NPPL last year. Tough to say that team won't compete or shouldn't be there and shouldn't have a forum, right?

Example - Collette (Ironmen), Martin (Ironmen), Buffington (XSV), Regudin (Aftermath) are all on the CP Raiders roster. And they won the NPPL D1 Series Championship last year. Same as Paxson's squad above, right.

Several more team have examples just like this.

As far as quality of play. Lets not forget HEAT went to Vegas last Oct for the NPPL championships and got smoked and won zero matches and only 3 total points if I recall and opted to never return. 7man wasn't their bag, even though they dominated in PSP.

So with all of that being said - here is my definition of Pro. Someone who plays in a Professional league (rather I like it or not) in the Professional division for the biggest purse at the event. Pretty simple definition for myself anyway.

Dan
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:07 PM #15
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Pro team forums based on playing PSP or possibly Millennium Pro.

Pro name color based on receiving APPA Pro class, which would be most but not all players in the PSP Pro division (players on teams in the bottom quarter might find it challenging to get a Pro class.)

Any Pro-level players playing in other leagues are good enough that PSP Pro teams will pick them up and they'll be Pro in PSP too.

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