[Tabris17]

You know what they say when you assume.
Why put money, man power, and R&D into a whole new marker when you can just engineer a new part that will work with your already established platform? I call that good business planning. Also considering Bob doesn't churn out a yearly marker so you at least get life out of your purchase.
I think the best thing to do is wait until the product is actually out and people in the main stream can review it and give their actual real world experiences. Rather then trying to follow an 'assumed pattern'.

[Paper_Cut]

Originally Posted by Tabris17

You know what they say when you assume.
Why put money, man power, and R&D into a whole new marker when you can just engineer a new part that will work with your already established platform? I call that good business planning. Also considering Bob doesn't churn out a yearly marker so you at least get life out of your purchase.
I think the best thing to do is wait until the product is actually out and people in the main stream can review it and give their actual real world experiences. Rather then trying to follow an 'assumed pattern'.

Not a new gun every year huh? Not counting private labels
2000:
Intimidator classic

2002
Gen 2 intimidator

2004/2005 Alias intimidator

2006 Gen 4 intimidator

2006 marq 6, Vice, and protege



2007 marq 7

2008 Marq closer

2009 Marq Victory

2010 Marq Victory
*same gun*
2011 marq victory V2 and shortly after the g6r


2012 g6r F5

2013 Victory V-COM






He may not label his guns 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008... but he is constantly cranking out new guns.

I've got nothing against Bob Long, I shoot a timmy myself and love it. However, this "god among men" mental image people have of him is ridiculous. New products need to be met with skepticism, not blind acceptance. You shouldn't be asking: "where can I buy one?" You should instead be asking: "why should I buy it?"

[Tabris17]

They're based on generations. Bob changes his mill patterns to keep the designs fresh. And is one of the only people/companies that consistently does it instead of just slapping new annos or badges onto existing stock.
Like the V2 T-Rex, V-Com, and Ripper are all Gen 2 marq victory platforms. It's not a yearly marker design. It's keeping people interested with new designs.
Let me know what else about Intimidators and Marqs you want to debate.

This isn't the place for it though. So on topic again I think waiting on reviews for the new v-com engine is the best thing before a final decision can be made for the OP.

[YeloSno]

I have to second Tabris's notion.


Besides, paper, you think like my dad.


Why is it more cost effective to put out a new engine that's compatible with a current marker that already garners a reputation of its own for being one of the lowest maintenance and highest reliability tournament markers as well as one with detailed milling and amenities?

Because:

1. A MASSIVE portion of the market today is people under the age of 25. These people typically only have 1-2 guns. Why? They can't afford it. Plain and simple. That's why so many players miss events and so many teams fall through that have people of that age. They are unreliable and when they want a new gun, they have to risk missing an event, losing out on a deal, or getting gypped and sitting at home with a piece of **** that they have to get stressed and depressed over.

Typically at that point, lots of people will also quit playing paintball because it's "too costly" to make a return as great as before they lost out.

2. Lots of people ride the dicks of Bob Long, PE, DYE, so forth due to their ergonomics. I'm not saying they're all fantastic, but everyone has their own feelings as to what works and what doesn't. Lots of people love that Bob's guns are so decently balanced and spaced as well as typically being able to get over 2000 shots per tank, no matter the system, and with consistency numbers that **** on pretty much anyone else.

Now why not keep that? Why not? Why not just throw in a different engine and then you only have one gun to worry about, but effectively have 2 guns to play with?

Massive selling point to me.


And then there are Bob's arguments:

Smaller variety of markers on a team = easier to reliably and cheaply service them.

Interchangeable engines mean that if one player needs to go front, he doesn't have to adapt to another marker's ergonomics and function.


I may be going off and off on this in a million directions, but many people in the community have yearned for something like this for YEARS and it's finally happening and happening well.

I know it's in your nature to be a cynic, but come on. It's kind of hard to **** on this.

At this point, you are getting this with your money:

A DM12 with the feel, reliability, simplicity and consistency of a Victory.

OR

A Victory with the efficiency, feel, etc, of a Victory.

In my experience, a victory that is tuned to meet the best of both worlds gave me about 1800 per 68/45 and felt smooth as **** as well as being pretty damn quiet with a $42 eigenbarrel.

It was already an end all marker, but obviously had drawbacks such as still having SOME kick (OH MY GOD, CALL THE WHAMBULANCE) and that distinctive, long lasting, farty "PRAP" with every shot. In any up close or generally quiet/night time encounter, this can really kill it for you.


And finally, the spool engine with the "stated" reliability and functionality of the Victory means that scenario players and nighttime players (as previously stated) can pull out their 70/45s and 77/45s, still get a case per fill, and still be able to plow people down without fretting about the possibility of their not-as-tough-as-a-tippmann gun going down mid-firefight.


I honestly think more companies should flock to this style of marker construction as it will allow them to charge less, make more, and satisfy a wider audience as well as then being able ot focus their funding towards things like improved consistency and efficiency and not "Oh ****, the badges don't really match the milling on the 4th gun in the lineup that we're putting out."

[Paper_Cut]

Originally Posted by YeloSno

I have to second Tabris's notion.


Besides, paper, you think like my dad.


Why is it more cost effective to put out a new engine that's compatible with a current marker that already garners a reputation of its own for being one of the lowest maintenance and highest reliability tournament markers as well as one with detailed milling and amenities?

Because:

1. A MASSIVE portion of the market today is people under the age of 25. These people typically only have 1-2 guns. Why? They can't afford it. Plain and simple. That's why so many players miss events and so many teams fall through that have people of that age. They are unreliable and when they want a new gun, they have to risk missing an event, losing out on a deal, or getting gypped and sitting at home with a piece of **** that they have to get stressed and depressed over.

Typically at that point, lots of people will also quit playing paintball because it's "too costly" to make a return as great as before they lost out.

2. Lots of people ride the dicks of Bob Long, PE, DYE, so forth due to their ergonomics. I'm not saying they're all fantastic, but everyone has their own feelings as to what works and what doesn't. Lots of people love that Bob's guns are so decently balanced and spaced as well as typically being able to get over 2000 shots per tank, no matter the system, and with consistency numbers that **** on pretty much anyone else.

Now why not keep that? Why not? Why not just throw in a different engine and then you only have one gun to worry about, but effectively have 2 guns to play with?

Massive selling point to me.


And then there are Bob's arguments:

Smaller variety of markers on a team = easier to reliably and cheaply service them.

Interchangeable engines mean that if one player needs to go front, he doesn't have to adapt to another marker's ergonomics and function.


I may be going off and off on this in a million directions, but many people in the community have yearned for something like this for YEARS and it's finally happening and happening well.

I know it's in your nature to be a cynic, but come on. It's kind of hard to **** on this.

At this point, you are getting this with your money:

A DM12 with the feel, reliability, simplicity and consistency of a Victory.

OR

A Victory with the efficiency, feel, etc, of a Victory.

In my experience, a victory that is tuned to meet the best of both worlds gave me about 1800 per 68/45 and felt smooth as **** as well as being pretty damn quiet with a $42 eigenbarrel.

It was already an end all marker, but obviously had drawbacks such as still having SOME kick (OH MY GOD, CALL THE WHAMBULANCE) and that distinctive, long lasting, farty "PRAP" with every shot. In any up close or generally quiet/night time encounter, this can really kill it for you.


And finally, the spool engine with the "stated" reliability and functionality of the Victory means that scenario players and nighttime players (as previously stated) can pull out their 70/45s and 77/45s, still get a case per fill, and still be able to plow people down without fretting about the possibility of their not-as-tough-as-a-tippmann gun going down mid-firefight.


I honestly think more companies should flock to this style of marker construction as it will allow them to charge less, make more, and satisfy a wider audience as well as then being able ot focus their funding towards things like improved consistency and efficiency and not "Oh ****, the badges don't really match the milling on the 4th gun in the lineup that we're putting out."

As a product, I'd say the V-COM does hold some ground if you're trying to figure out what marker you want to buy to get the most for your money. But keep it in context: "should I sell my Geo3 for a V-com?"
Do you really think its worth the changeover? Selling the gun he has used and gotten used to and get an entirely new gun? If you do the math, even if he sold his Geo3 he is still going to have to fork over a couple hundred to get a V-COM
Its not like the victory is going to be some gift from god that makes the geo3 look like a squirt gun.
The only difference is he is already comfortable with his geo3.

They say "its the player not the gun" but IMO that isn't true. If took a player who played for years with the same equipment, knowing it and using it so often it felt like an extension of himself, then you gave that player completely different gear. I very much doubt he will do as well as he would with his own gun. Even if the new stuff looks good on paper.

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by Paper_Cut

They say "its the player not the gun" but IMO that isn't true. If took a player who played for years with the same equipment, knowing it and using it so often it felt like an extension of himself, then you gave that player completely different gear. I very much doubt he will do as well as he would with his own gun. Even if the new stuff looks good on paper.

I feel like I have never ever and will never ever meet a player that has played with the same thing for years and the miniscule change of equipment to something else would take them from the top of their game to something lower, because if they're playing the top of the game they're going to either adapt or not be at the top in the first place.

[bulzeye]

Originally Posted by Paper_Cut

The new upgrade is not amazing. It is a downgrade in every way from the stock Victory platform. It is by very definition: a gimmick.

Stick with the geo

how is it a downgrade? fewer shots? just like with any spool. I have always been a spool guy but love the victory, but if the spool is able to offer a slightly softer shot and a little better sound signature than i'd be all for it for tournaments (would still use the poppit engine for big games, etc)

Originally Posted by Paper_Cut

The victory with the poppet arguably beats the geo3, but if you plan on using the spool engine then other than efficiency there isn't any difference, and since the geo3 is more efficient, that would be the better of the two options.

the geo3 is going to be more efficient than this? again how do you know? bob put out a video with the v-com getting 1400 shots and greenspan put out a video with the geo getting 1200 shots, so how is the geo more efficient?? most of the other geo3 vids out are under the 1200 shot mark.

Originally Posted by Paper_Cut

How can you be here for 6 years and not see a single pattern? After going through the same routine for 11ty bazillion times and getting the same result you begin to realize it is safe to make assumptions in certain scenarios.

Lets be reasonable: It's Bob Long, if he thought his product was superior to the Victory's engine he would have made a different gun entirely with as few interchangeable parts as possible. Hell, he makes you purchase the pressure tester kit separately, that alone should tell you he didn't get into paintball because he is a philanthropist.
The fact that it is backwards compatible and the V-COM comes with the old engine tells me that this engine isn't going to light the world on fire.

It is just like the 4C eyes, a gimmick designed to suck a few more pennies out of victory owners.

pressure testers have been coming with victory's for some time now

[JC001]

Originally Posted by Weroliera

Think about if you really care about efficiency
In all my fields the fill station is basically gettin out of the netted area and unlimited air
I really don't think you will ever shoot 1000 shots in one game in speedball
I have a 45 4500 and an axe and I always always go in a game with 3 pods and my rotor full. I don't think efficiency really matters between geo3 and the boblong
It is cool but I don't think it's worth choosing one or the other due to efficiency

you don't play tournament paintball.

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by Weroliera

Think about if you really care about efficiency
In all my fields the fill station is basically gettin out of the netted area and unlimited air
I really don't think you will ever shoot 1000 shots in one game in speedball
I have a 45 4500 and an axe and I always always go in a game with 3 pods and my rotor full. I don't think efficiency really matters between geo3 and the boblong
It is cool but I don't think it's worth choosing one or the other due to efficiency

I just saw this, and all I have to say is :

Lol

I have a 48/45 and I always go into a TOURNEY game with at least 3 pods and a Spire if not 5 pods and a Spire. There's this magical thing called laning that usually makes or breaks a game for a team and that burns through paint and air like crazy. Also, yes, I have gotten rid of markers because they weren't efficient enough. Like a 2012 Reflex Rail. I could shoot 3 pods and a hopper, but that was about it.

[Weroliera (Banned)]

Originally Posted by JC001

you don't play tournament paintball.

Saw your video and I play what you play
Not In Tournaments at all. Just "play" and enjoy the coolest sport ever
Shooting 1000 shots in one game. Is insane and outrageous. To me!!
And I would go dead broke playing 1 time a month with 90 a case
Hahahah
And I'm not a pro like you but I still think its not a big deal the extra pod or two wen u kan shoot 1200 shots with a geo
Already. Not sayin is better idk maybe the vcom is better
But I'm saying not pick one over the other because the efficiency

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by Weroliera

Saw your video and I play what you play
Not I. Tournaments at all. Just "play" and enjoy the coolest sport ever
Shooting 1000 shots in one game. Is insane and outrageous. To me!!
And I would go dead broke playing 1 time a month with 90 a case
Hahahah

Play a tournament and you'll understand that getting the win is better than saving a pod or two of paint. You'll also discover that with hundreds of fills an hour the fill station can drop WAY below 4500psi, or that a lot of fields won't fill past 4000psi anyway.

[Weroliera (Banned)]

Originally Posted by aresfiend

Play a tournament and you'll understand that getting the win is better than saving a pod or two of paint. You'll also discover that with hundreds of fills an hour the fill station can drop WAY below 4500psi, or that a lot of fields won't fill past 4000psi anyway.

Mmmmmmmmm ok I loose
Now that you put those factors and my experianced is out weighed with yours

Now do you think it will be as smooth or smoother than the geo3?
I kinda want a vcom but idk can't really justify any gun over 500 bucks for me I have an axe and I think I should stay with only the axe right?

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by Weroliera

Mmmmmmmmm ok I loose
Now that you put those factors and my experianced is out weighed with yours

Now do you think it will be as smooth or smoother than the geo3?
I kinda want a vcom but idk can't really justify any gun over 500 bucks for me I have an axe and I think I should stay with only the axe right?

Personally I say stick with the Axe. The Vcom should shoot smoother than a Geo 3 (mainly because Geos aren't known for being buttery smooth), but honestly the Axe is a pretty good marker if you just need something for rec ball.

[CAOL_98]

I'd say stick with your geo 3, but I'm apparently im part of the minority on pbnation anymore...the general consensus is that the geo 3 is super inefficient, kicks like a horse, is overpriced, is nothing more then a slightly upgraded geo 2 (gimmicky upgrades at that) and generally undesirable in every way shape or form in comparison to other spoolers on the market.
Looks like you're on your way to buying a v-com soon. In all honesty, the gun looks great, and is a great deal for sure...just not sure why the geo 3 has become such a hated on piece of **** all of a sudden.
Sorry...just hard to read these threads anymore. I love my geo 3, and plan to happily shoot it for many years to come...along with my ego 11.
Probably not worth the comment either...just had to get that out...no hate on bob...just needed to comment. Good luck OP!

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by CAOL_98

I'd say stick with your geo 3, but I'm apparently im part of the minority on pbnation anymore...the general consensus is that the geo 3 is super inefficient, kicks like a horse, is overpriced, is nothing more then a slightly upgraded geo 2 (gimmicky upgrades at that) and generally undesirable in every way shape or form in comparison to other spoolers on the market.
Looks like you're on your way to buying a v-com soon. In all honesty, the gun looks great, and is a great deal for sure...just not sure why the geo 3 has become such a hated on piece of **** all of a sudden.
Sorry...just hard to read these threads anymore. I love my geo 3, and plan to happily shoot it for many years to come...along with my ego 11.
Probably not worth the comment either...just had to get that out...no hate on bob...just needed to comment. Good luck OP!

If it helps any I voted Geo3 since there's no point to selling your $1,350 at a loss to still have to invest more to upgrade to a ripper with the spool engine.

[DanR]

this guy has a very valid point^ although you could always trade straight for one that already has a vcom

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by DanR

this guy has a very valid point^ although you could always trade straight for one that already has a vcom

But why would someone trade their uber special Bob Long Ripper with a spoolie engine straight for a Geo 2 with ups?

That's what would happen.

[egocanival17]

I get the ripper at a discounted price with the VCOM upgrade. The discount is lower than what the Geo3 retails for

[aresfiend]

Originally Posted by egocanival17

I get the ripper at a discounted price with the VCOM upgrade. The discount is lower than what the Geo3 retails for

But then the problem is that unless your Geo3 is in unused condition you're not going to get retail price for it.

EDIT: And the ripper should be discounted seeing as the 2013 Marq with VCom comes in at $1,250 which is already lower than the Geo3 retail.