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Old 02-14-2013, 11:41 PM #1660
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so. i cannot delete any more pms. I literally have 537 pms from this bolt design.

Edit: mcmaster carr has some 1.6MM x 17.1mm / 16.1mm orings. =D

also have some oring cord...

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Old 02-14-2013, 11:47 PM #1661
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Hahah - I was just thinking that maybe you could go with some cord and a splice kit.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:30 PM #1662
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made a quick cad of the groove diameter and the bolt body diameter with the orings spec'd for the stock bolt as well as ours.

I have no idea how to factor oring stretch into the equation since both o rings spec'd have a smaller ID than the OD of the groove, but even so, our oring sits .1702mm past the bolt body. The stock bolt sits .05mm past the bolt body. that's a big difference.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:07 PM #1663
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its hard for anyone to help you when they have no ides what is going on hava
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:15 PM #1664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefoxx04 View Post
its hard for anyone to help you when they have no ides what is going on hava
XD

Well its more of a comment to say "hey. We have an issue. we know we have an issue. we're working on figuring out how to resolve the issue."

Right now, I am trying to find out if there is a way to measure the change in an oring in terms of its CS and OD (if that gets changed) when its ID is stretched by x amount. Everything I am finding is on "how to choose" an oring within a 1-5% margin so that it will not break.. so it's kind of what I am looking for but not really.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:15 PM #1665
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Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW View Post
XD

Well its more of a comment to say "hey. We have an issue. we know we have an issue. we're working on figuring out how to resolve the issue."

Right now, I am trying to find out if there is a way to measure the change in an oring in terms of its CS and OD (if that gets changed) when its ID is stretched by x amount. Everything I am finding is on "how to choose" an oring within a 1-5% margin so that it will not break.. so it's kind of what I am looking for but not really.
I have never seen what you are looking for, but surely it has to exist somewhere. My thought is to have Yoda machine a rod into a long slender cone. Micro the cone at the point where the o-ring just barely touches. That's your unstretched ID. Now find the place on the cone where the OD of the o-ring seat that's too tight is. Push the o-ring onto that place and micro its OD. Now you know two OD's for your o-ring. In between those two points on the cone is the place that allows for a good seal and allows for minimal drag/friction. Another way to skin the cat is to micro the ID of the surface the o-ring is going to slide against. Now find an o-ring that is just a tiny bit smaller than that. The o-ring seat needs to stretch the o-ring just a tiny bit so it mates up to the dynamic surface without leaking or too much drag. The amount needed is easy to determine. Take your stock DP bolt and measure the OD of the sail o-ring while its on the bolt. Now measure the ID of the body area that it slides on. It's a couple of hundredths less than the o-ring OD at most. Use that as a general rule for your o-rings. Obviously you can get your tolerances closer, but don't go too far or you create too many opportunities for leaks.

Personally, I do things backwards, but it works. I get common/standard sized o-rings and then machine the ID of the dynamic surface to that exact o-ring OD. Then I make the o-ring seat 20% more than the ID of the o-ring to make sure I have a good seal (too tight usually) in the dynamic surface. After that "sneaking up" on the ideal OD for the o-ring seat is pretty easy. You are already pretty close. I know that's not very scientific or math based, but hey, it works and you don't need to be a calculus major to figure it out.

Something else you can do is measure the OD of the o-ring both on and off the o-ring seat. There's your amount of growth. Keep in mind the rule for o-rings that you already established and try to keep your stretched OD less than that.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:31 PM #1666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkenders View Post
I have never seen what you are looking for, but surely it has to exist somewhere. My thought is to have Yoda machine a rod into a long slender cone. Micro the cone at the point where the o-ring just barely touches. That's your unstretched ID. Now find the place on the cone where the OD of the o-ring seat that's too tight is. Push the o-ring onto that place and micro its OD. Now you know two OD's for your o-ring. In between those two points on the cone is the place that allows for a good seal and allows for minimal drag/friction. Another way to skin the cat is to micro the ID of the surface the o-ring is going to slide against. Now find an o-ring that is just a tiny bit smaller than that. The o-ring seat needs to stretch the o-ring just a tiny bit so it mates up to the dynamic surface without leaking or too much drag. The amount needed is easy to determine. Take your stock DP bolt and measure the OD of the sail o-ring while its on the bolt. Now measure the ID of the body area that it slides on. It's a couple of hundredths less than the o-ring OD at most. Use that as a general rule for your o-rings. Obviously you can get your tolerances closer, but don't go too far or you create too many opportunities for leaks.

Personally, I do things backwards, but it works. I get common/standard sized o-rings and then machine the ID of the dynamic surface to that exact o-ring OD. Then I make the o-ring seat 20% more than the ID of the o-ring to make sure I have a good seal (too tight usually) in the dynamic surface. After that "sneaking up" on the ideal OD for the o-ring seat is pretty easy. You are already pretty close. I know that's not very scientific or math based, but hey, it works and you don't need to be a calculus major to figure it out.

Something else you can do is measure the OD of the o-ring both on and off the o-ring seat. There's your amount of growth. Keep in mind the rule for o-rings that you already established and try to keep your stretched OD less than that.
:/ I'm looking for mathy ways of doing it since well.. I am pretty much a calc major. rofl.

While we can always machine a bit less, I am trying to find a way that is better than a rule of thumb so we can verify the other seals as well to have the balance we need... I've spent the last 3 hours reading on how to choose orings and the math behind it. Still can't derive what I need though.. :/ It's probably staring right at me. I'll probably come back to it later and figure it out if jonathan hasnt alraedy.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:04 PM #1667
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For anybody else interested in how to calculate o-ring dimensional changes related to percent stretch, there is a wonderful table for it in the Parker O-ring Design Guide. Section 3.5 of the current manual - page 54.

For any of the testers with access to calipers, please measure the diameter of the sail o-ring gland (part that touches the ID of the sail o-ring) and shoot it over to Jacob or myself (if you have my address, if not we will get it to you) so I can do some troubleshooting in CAD. I measured a handful of them and they were all well within tolerance so I didn't expect to run into any issues on that. What I suspect more given the other issue is that the bore of the G3 that I have here is actually a larger ID than typical.

Hell, if any of the testers have issues with any of the o-rings and have access to calipers, toss those over as well please.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:09 PM #1668
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Before going too crazy on the dimensions of the bolt, keep in mind the tolerances of the o-rings themselves. The larger the ID of the o-ring - typically the larger the +/- . For example, a -006 typically has an AVERAGE ID of 2.90mm but with a tolerance of +/- 0.13mm. Add on to that, the tolerance of the cross section - 1.78mm with a +/- of 0.08mm and now you're looking at an o-ring that has as average OD of 6.46mm but can actually be anywhere between 6.17mm and 6.75mm in OD.

Same situation for larger o-rings. A standard -018 may average 18.77mm ID X 1.78mm CS = 22.33mm OD but with the ID having a +/- of 0.23mm and the CS having a +/- of 0.08mm....now you're looking at a possible OD between 21.94mm and 22.72mm.

Just something to keep in mind. It may be just the o-ring tolerances that are the issue if the bolt parts work in very precise fitment.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:20 PM #1669
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:38 PM #1670
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Some new orings have been ordered.

Jonathan is checking the CADs and we are actively verifying tolerances between bolts and the markers as well as looking for alternate orings for the testers in general.

We are looking to revise the production model as well based upon these findings so that more commonly used orings such as the 20x16x2 that was originally spec'd work as designed instead of having to contract out and have a custom oring size produced which is not only costly, but just stupid if we plan on providing a product that is fairly easy to maintain.

Oh.. And a threshold. yeah.
Still trying to buy one, but I did buy some spare engines for one off of the forums so that we can compare techt vs stock vs a different stock etc.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:32 AM #1671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathwish_DW View Post
Some new orings have been ordered.

Jonathan is checking the CADs and we are actively verifying tolerances between bolts and the markers as well as looking for alternate orings for the testers in general.

We are looking to revise the production model as well based upon these findings so that more commonly used orings such as the 20x16x2 that was originally spec'd work as designed instead of having to contract out and have a custom oring size produced which is not only costly, but just stupid if we plan on providing a product that is fairly easy to maintain.

Oh.. And a threshold. yeah.
Still trying to buy one, but I did buy some spare engines for one off of the forums so that we can compare techt vs stock vs a different stock etc.
i would be willing to send you my threshy once i get it and fix the problems... i still have like 3 other guns so i really wouldnt need it back for a while.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:40 AM #1672
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So now you guys are going to be working on the g4 bolts?
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:56 PM #1673
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So now you guys are going to be working on the g4 bolts?
Looks to me that until the g3 issues get resolved which are o-ring related that the G4 bolt wont get released. Why would they double their trouble? Until the 0-ring thing gets sorted out which it looks like the testers, DW and yoda are working on, what's the point? The G3 and G4 are so similar, that fixing the issues with the G3 will probably fix the G4 bolt if there are any problems.


but that's just my opinion ;P
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:30 PM #1674
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Working on the G3 issues first.

Regardless, the G4 will need to be rebalanced.. so if we can at least get this working correctly, we will have a base line to build from.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:35 PM #1675
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Quote:
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LOL...and what is in it's third year of development and still doesn't work???????

I new bolt for a discontinued gun!!!!!

Rule 1 in engineering school...always put the cart before the dead horse!!!


LOLOLOLLLOLBAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHh
Gotta love a new account talking smack.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:38 PM #1676
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Meh. Someone needs a life.

at least we're doing something productive.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:00 PM #1677
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Because you mentioned finding the orings at mcmaster carr I wasnt sure wether or not you had already resolved the oring issue. I cant wait to find out what the testors found out and think of the bolts.
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Old 02-20-2013, 10:29 PM #1678
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Because you mentioned finding the orings at mcmaster carr I wasnt sure wether or not you had already resolved the oring issue. I cant wait to find out what the testors found out and think of the bolts.
Naw.. Gotta make it vent quicker as well

well.. there is a lot of varied experiences from the testers... orings are the problem, lube is the problem... etc. Still trying to m ake sure everything was built to spec as we believe itwas...
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:49 PM #1679
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Gotta love a new account talking smack.
Clearly someone (Not you), has no concept what development is about. Often times good ideas take a huge amount of time before they become reality. There's not a good gun out there that went from an idea to a product in 3 months or some other stupid small time frame. These things take time. Even for places like Dye, PE, Macdev, BL, etc who have money to throw into development, they still have a significant development time frame.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:24 PM #1680
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