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Old 02-11-2013, 03:31 PM #85
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
If you can't understand the political implications of this, maybe you should be the one to leave.
This discussion is very quickly leaving the framework of marriage equality.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:32 PM #86
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It may have a lineage dating back to the 18th century but it has changed a great deal since then, evolved if you will, largely because it is self critical and defines itself on the idea of moving forward.

If only there was a word that would encapsulate such characteristics
Progressivism is still rooted in equality, liberty et al. Moving forward in the context of progressives merely constitutes a moving towards the goal of actualizing liberty and equality et al.

Moving forward is vague, and meaningless without context.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:06 PM #87
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Originally Posted by Snake13 View Post

... a set of completely arbitrary rules that serve no purpose...
Have you actually read any part of the Torah? The rules certainly do serve a purpose, even if you aren't a believer. Why is it extremely important to cook pork to a certain temperature but not so much with beef? Do you think it is smart to be eating shellfish in the middle of the desert? Kosher practices certainly do serve a purpose. Having sex with animals is a bad idea. The same goes for treating your spouse as your equal, a very good rule with a very good purpose.

Now about not laying with another man... there is a school of thought where only the penetrative sexual act is what is abhorrent and not the act of loving another man.
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Last edited by barrel roll : 02-11-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:27 PM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Have you actually read any part of the Torah? The rules certainly do serve a purpose, even if you aren't a believer. Why is it extremely important to cook pork to a certain temperature but not so much with beef? Do you think it is smart to be eating shellfish in the middle of the desert? Kosher practices certainly do serve a purpose. Having sex with animals is a bad idea. The same goes for treating your spouse as your equal, a very good rule with a very good purpose.
Can't both of you be right to a certain extent? Some of the rules (like those you indicated above) are incredibly useful, even without a historical backdrop. However, some of the rules seem arbitrary at best:

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. - Exodus 21:28

How useful is this as a theory of liability? If a bull kills another man, then you're supposed to slaughter the bull but not attribute any liability to the owner. This is purely an act of vengeance against an instrument, something which cannot form the intent to cause harm, much less be negligent in its actions. The owner, however, can form said intent, or at the very least, be negligent in how it handled the bull.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:39 PM #89
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What is the point in going after the negligent man after already taking his property from him?
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:09 PM #90
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What is the point in going after the negligent man after already taking his property from him?
1. The method in Exodus completely disregards the loss to the parties affected by the man's negligence. If a dude hits me with his car and breaks all my ribs, destroying his car isn't even a minute attempt to put me back into my pre-broke rib position.

2. Should negligence really be premised upon the idea of vengeance? Other areas of law, sure, but negligence?
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:14 PM #91
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But I know someone who thought they were gay, found God, and now has a happy, longlasting straight marriage.
Can't believe this went one unnoticed. I can't stop laughing about it. I feel bad for the woman in that relationship. Read up on why

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-orientation_marriage

"Marriages between a homosexual man and a heterosexual woman have a high probability of failure."

"Joe Kort, a counselor specializing in mixed-orientation marriages, said "These men genuinely love their wives. They fall in love with their wives, they have children, they're on a chemical, romantic high, and then after about seven years, the high falls away and their gay identity starts emerging. They don't mean any harm." While many hide their orientation from their spouse, others tell their spouse before marriage. It is also possible that someone was exclusively heterosexual in behavior and fantasies before marriage, but grew toward a more homosexual orientation during marriage."

Poor ignorant fool... Tell your friend that.

Last edited by OccupyST : 02-11-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:52 PM #93
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Can't believe this went one unnoticed. I can't stop laughing about it. I feel bad for the woman in that relationship. Read up on why

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-orientation_marriage

"Marriages between a homosexual man and a heterosexual woman have a high probability of failure."

"Joe Kort, a counselor specializing in mixed-orientation marriages, said "These men genuinely love their wives. They fall in love with their wives, they have children, they're on a chemical, romantic high, and then after about seven years, the high falls away and their gay identity starts emerging. They don't mean any harm." While many hide their orientation from their spouse, others tell their spouse before marriage. It is also possible that someone was exclusively heterosexual in behavior and fantasies before marriage, but grew toward a more homosexual orientation during marriage."

Poor ignorant fool... Tell your friend that.
That is pretty much every relationship, dude.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:22 PM #94
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That is pretty much every relationship, dude.
Aside from the usual. :-)
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:59 PM #95
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Have you actually read any part of the Torah? The rules certainly do serve a purpose, even if you aren't a believer. Why is it extremely important to cook pork to a certain temperature but not so much with beef? Do you think it is smart to be eating shellfish in the middle of the desert? Kosher practices certainly do serve a purpose. Having sex with animals is a bad idea. The same goes for treating your spouse as your equal, a very good rule with a very good purpose.

Now about not laying with another man... there is a school of thought where only the penetrative sexual act is what is abhorrent and not the act of loving another man.
I had shellfish in the desert just a few days ago, and chicken is just essential to cook properly, and one would think that an all knowing god would foresee the advent of refrigeration when laying down rules for all eternity. Besides that your equating good food safety with a moral sin punishable by eternal damnation, that is arbitrary. There's no rational argument for eating shellfish being an immoral act outside of "god said so". Saying man laying with man is abhorrent is arbitrary as **** based entirely off "ew that's gross", and perhaps an entirely outdated societal need to promote procreation (which is actually the exact opposite of our current societal needs).

Your other two examples are fine, I never said every example of dogmatic based morality is arbitrary, treating others with kindness and not murdering people or cheating on your wife are all good moral rules that can be rationally defended.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:31 AM #96
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You need procreation and you need war. Europeans need procreation badly, they are going to find themselves minorities in their own back yards in a few decades.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:21 AM #97
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The advent of nuclear weapons has destroyed the balance war provided.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:29 AM #98
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The advent of nuclear weapons has destroyed the balance war provided.
Correct. However they will not be around forever.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:43 AM #99
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You need procreation and you need war. Europeans need procreation badly, they are going to find themselves minorities in their own back yards in a few decades.
Not if birth rates in Africa and Asia continue to fall.

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Correct. However they will not be around forever.
Well 'forever' is a very long time, but I can't see them disappearing unless the human species collapses. I probably have enough knowledge/know where to find and how to interpret the knowledge required to make a rudimentary nuclear device. From there 'all you need' is the required infrastructure.

The cat is out of the bag, and I can't see it going back in voluntarily.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:52 AM #100
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Not only that but a loss of particle/nuclear physics education. Once you start understanding the atom and what kind of power it posses it's only a matter of time before you forge ahead.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:01 AM #101
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You need procreation and you need war. Europeans need procreation badly, they are going to find themselves minorities in their own back yards in a few decades.
Oh of course, forget the current strain on our planet's resources, procreation is obviously a key societal imperative because we can't let brown/black people get more power.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:15 AM #102
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Strain?
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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:15 AM #103
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Not if birth rates in Africa and Asia continue to fall.



Well 'forever' is a very long time, but I can't see them disappearing unless the human species collapses. I probably have enough knowledge/know where to find and how to interpret the knowledge required to make a rudimentary nuclear device. From there 'all you need' is the required infrastructure.

The cat is out of the bag, and I can't see it going back in voluntarily.
I was informed that birth rates of non-europeans in European countries is high?

What in saying is that nuclear weapons are built as deterrents which means they sit in silos. They have to be maintained or else they will become inert over time. Unless thorium or some technological equivalent of pixie dust is able to completely replace fossil fuels, nukes will go unmaintained. Especially if resources need to be allocated to more critical areas.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:17 AM #104
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They are higher, but they're falling as they industrialize.
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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:20 AM #105
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Oh of course, forget the current strain on our planet's resources, procreation is obviously a key societal imperative because we can't let brown/black people get more power.
Glad you have to imagination some racist undertone to that. Christ.
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