Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-11-2013, 04:12 PM #22
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post

God, you love to stay stupid things don't you.
He makes a point. Va hospitals get **** funding, and are overburdened... it is even more of a travesty when you consider the care of servicemen (and women) is a specific enumerated power.

If they can't do what they are charged with, why let them make their own rules etc etc etc
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:21 PM #23
scienceguy
 
 
scienceguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
For someone who's father is a physician, you don't understand disease processes. One does not simply acquire MS from stress, at least it's not known.

Sounds like an emotional appeal and I'm not biting. Doctors are notoriously overworked but certainly not underpaid unless there's extenuating circumstances that you're not revealing.
Ask your GP how much they make after expenses. They aren't poor, but they certainly aren't rich. I'd say they are underpaid for the amount of school they have to go through and pay for.

Just for the record. Are va hospitals good? I thought they were on the low end. I have no experience with them though. I may be spoiled by my hospitals though.
scienceguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:33 PM #24
Rapier7
Smarter than you
 
Rapier7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgnado1996 View Post
I propose a solution. We have government healthcare (though flawed) but we send them to private hospitals and then tell the insurance agencies to duke it out with the government. We need the government to go one step further and create government hospitals where employees are on government salary so that it is ensured that they get paid fairly. Then the private hospitals have the right to refuse service to those who Cannot pay.

Thoughts?
The government hospitals would only look to cut costs and get through as many patients as cheaply as possible. Most of Europe has universal healthcare where the physicians are government employees and they don't make nearly as much money as their American counterparts.

Under your proposed system, the best doctors and surgeons would stay in private hospitals and make a ton of bank while everybody else (the lowly GPs, for example) would get shoved into a government hospital where their pay wouldn't be any better.

It sounds like your dad chose the wrong subspecialty in medicine to go into. Sucks for him and your family, but them's the breaks. Also, the vast majority surgeons make quite a bit of money (300k+ per year). You say your family is struggling, but do you know how much your dad makes? Or how much it costs to keep your family in the lifestyle it's accustomed to?
__________________
http://metatalkingpoints.blogspot.com/ - Intelligent Commentary
Rapier7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:36 PM #25
slateman
 
 
slateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
slateman is a Supporting Member
slateman is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
Ask your GP how much they make after expenses. They aren't poor, but they certainly aren't rich. I'd say they are underpaid for the amount of school they have to go through and pay for.

Just for the record. Are va hospitals good? I thought they were on the low end. I have no experience with them though. I may be spoiled by my hospitals though.
I never heard of even a remotely good experience from VA hospitals. I have never had an experience, but I only went once and it was everything I figured it would be. I eventually left and just hoped my ankle wasn't broken. I will NEVER set foot in a VA hospital, even if I think I'm dying.

People constantly complain at how much the government sucks, how lazy they're workers are, how overpaid they are, ect. But for some reason we're completely okay with this same government running hospitals and attempting to actually take care of individuals?
__________________
In your haste to save the world, take care you don't destroy it.
slateman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:45 PM #26
F1VENOM
 
 
F1VENOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
Ask your GP how much they make after expenses. They aren't poor, but they certainly aren't rich. I'd say they are underpaid for the amount of school they have to go through and pay for.

Just for the record. Are va hospitals good? I thought they were on the low end. I have no experience with them though. I may be spoiled by my hospitals though.
With a median over $180k per year, even with expensive you're doing well.

My dad and grandfather have had pretty good experiences with the VA.
__________________
"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
F1VENOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:49 PM #27
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
He makes a point. Va hospitals get **** funding, and are overburdened... it is even more of a travesty when you consider the care of servicemen (and women) is a specific enumerated power.

If they can't do what they are charged with, why let them make their own rules etc etc etc
One type of government ran hospital being ran poorly has little to say about the ability for any government hospital to be ran well. This is essentially saying "well we tried to build an airplane and it didn't work, so therefore all airplanes don't work".

You know what they say, "If at first you don't succeed, quit."
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:52 PM #28
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
lol 'bout to head to the store.

The issue is they are specifically tasked with this and they can't get it right. What evidence is there to support they will get something they aren't specifically tasked with (leaving alone the argument that they shouldn't be doing it at all)?
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts

Last edited by barrel roll : 02-11-2013 at 04:53 PM. Reason: and I quit :D
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 04:58 PM #29
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Is it impossible for VA to be reworked to an efficient state?
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 05:12 PM #30
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Not at all, but is the general government willing to do it? If they are, why haven't they?
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 05:23 PM #31
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Is it impossible for VA to be reworked to an efficient state?
VA hospitals are remarkably efficient. They provide very good care relative to the money they receive.

They're just significantly overburdened.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...376238,00.html
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 05:46 PM #32
scienceguy
 
 
scienceguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
With a median over $180k per year, even with expensive you're doing well.

My dad and grandfather have had pretty good experiences with the VA.
The specialists make that, but the GPs don't do that we'll. i consider them the average doctor. after insurance etc they told me they barely clear 100. That's why there's a shortage of GPs.

Some of the private hospitals are crappy too, so I really don't know how the va compares to the average private. I've had great experiences with even ghetto hospitals in my area. The billing process and insurance... That's another story.
scienceguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 08:28 PM #33
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Not at all
So, if it is possible for a VA hospital to be run well (which after Umami's post, it seems they are considering), then can't we assume that it is possible for the government to run other hospitals well (like the ones proposed in the OP).
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 08:44 PM #34
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
That is quite a big "if".
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 08:56 PM #35
F1VENOM
 
 
F1VENOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
The specialists make that, but the GPs don't do that we'll. i consider them the average doctor. after insurance etc they told me they barely clear 100. That's why there's a shortage of GPs.

Some of the private hospitals are crappy too, so I really don't know how the va compares to the average private. I've had great experiences with even ghetto hospitals in my area. The billing process and insurance... That's another story.
BLS disagrees.
__________________
"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
F1VENOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 10:36 PM #36
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Is it impossible for VA to be reworked to an efficient state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Not at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
If it is possible for a VA hospital to be run well, then can't we assume that it is possible for the government to run other hospitals well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
That is quite a big "if".
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 10:43 PM #37
BenderBR
1%ing on you *****es
 
BenderBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Burrrlin
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
How are you not getting this?
__________________
"Originally posted by Kellster: You always own me, breh. :("

"Originally posted by Kellster: Crow takes so good. Om nom nom."

Never miss a good opportunity to shut up.

Texas über alles.
BenderBR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 10:59 PM #38
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenderBR View Post
How are you not getting this?
My point is very clear. One instance of poorly run government hospitals =/= the impossibility of a functional government run hospital. Would you like to see the formal logic of the mistake?
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 07:58 AM #39
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
I didn't say it wasn't possible. It is the other P word I am having issues hurdling.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 09:10 AM #40
scienceguy
 
 
scienceguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
BLS disagrees.
That's because there's such a big range. I know an anesthesiologist that makes 350k in Indiana. Plastic surgeons make a ton. Surgeons in general make a killing. That's why I said specialists do well. However GPs don't and a there's a shortage because of it. I'm just going by what I see and what I've been told. Definately not worth the amount of schooling and loans required. Certainly wouldn't make me want to go into the field. Doctors don't have the lobby power that insurance and drug companies do. They'll get the shaft in the healthcare restructuring. They certainly did when bean counting MBAs touting the cost savings of managed care took over. The government won't be any different.

So, Umami, would you say that overburdened is synonymous with poorly run? That's what I was getting at with my first post.
scienceguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 09:17 AM #41
F1VENOM
 
 
F1VENOM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
That's because there's such a big range. I know an anesthesiologist that makes 350k in Indiana. Plastic surgeons make a ton. Surgeons in general make a killing. That's why I said specialists do well. However GPs don't and a there's a shortage because of it. I'm just going by what I see and what I've been told. Definately not worth the amount of schooling and loans required. Certainly wouldn't make me want to go into the field. Doctors don't have the lobby power that insurance and drug companies do. They'll get the shaft in the healthcare restructuring. They certainly did when bean counting MBAs touting the cost savings of managed care took over. The government won't be any different.

So, Umami, would you say that overburdened is synonymous with poorly run? That's what I was getting at with my first post.
Compare apples to apples. We're talking about a surgeon here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgnado1996 View Post
yes, but If my father didn't take patients that couldn't pay, my family would be broke. 70 percent of his surgeries do not pay out. Guys, I'd like some feedback on the hospital idea rather than nitpicking the details, if you wouldn't mind. All I know is that when I told my dad this he said "That would be awesome."
__________________
"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"
F1VENOM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 11:23 AM #42
jsgnado1996
jsg_nado
 
jsgnado1996's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
jsgnado1996 plays in the APPA D5 division
jsgnado1996 has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
For someone who's father is a physician, you don't understand disease processes. One does not simply acquire MS from stress, at least it's not known.

Sounds like an emotional appeal and I'm not biting. Doctors are notoriously overworked but certainly not underpaid unless there's extenuating circumstances that you're not revealing.
That's an inappropriate accusation to make, sir. I know MS is not directly caused by stress, Heck, my Dad Is suffering from it, you try to tell me I don't know what it is? Ridiculous. It is widely accepted that stress can be a major contributing factor to the development of MS. It was not an emotional appeal, just emphasizing how overworked he is.
__________________
GOGO13 #11
Proudly sponsored by Almost Famous Paintball, gogged paintball, KM, Anthrax, and Camp Pendleton Paintball
#AFPLRULES
jsgnado1996 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump