Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-11-2013, 12:08 AM #43
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by pynis View Post
It's very difficult to stay on top of a rule like that. Essentially, that is what the mods are saying in a nut shell.
Also, the mods are here more to help than swing their ban hammers.
I think this is what John and I have both been trying to say. It's not so much that we don't think it would be a change for the better, as it is that we'd have a hard time enforcing it properly with a reasonable amount of resources. This isn't out of laziness, resistance to change, or the belief that the rules are perfect. It's that we can't guarantee proper enforcement and we'd be shutting down a lot of perfectly clean transactions.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 02-11-2013, 12:09 AM #44
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by pynis View Post
Then maybe you should dedicate your free time to enforcing the rule. It's very difficult to stay on top of a rule like that. Essentially, that is what the mods are saying in a nut shell.
Also, the mods are here more to help than swing their ban hammers.

Check my feedback. Out of those transactions I cannot tell you how many people gifted the payment either just because they sent it that way or because I gave them the option. I never require buyers to gift. I simply tell them it would be appreciated.

If gifting a payment is really that big of a deal to you then don't gift it. It's pretty simple. If a seller requires a gifted payment, then move on. I guarantee that the seller is not the only person selling the item you want/need on this site.
If you would bother to read the thread, which would be appreciated, seeing as I address everything you said later on. Thanks, and sorry if that came out as rude.

And no one is asking for anyone to go and "swing their ban hammers"
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor

Last edited by tinopaintball : 02-11-2013 at 12:20 AM.
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:17 AM #45
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
I think this is what John and I have both been trying to say. It's not so much that we don't think it would be a change for the better, as it is that we'd have a hard time enforcing it properly with a reasonable amount of resources. This isn't out of laziness, resistance to change, or the belief that the rules are perfect. It's that we can't guarantee proper enforcement and we'd be shutting down a lot of perfectly clean transactions.
My biggest problem with what you guys are saying is that this basic argument of "we cant enforce it properly", can be applied in a very good way to more than one of your current rules. There is never a rule in the world that can be guaranteed proper enforcement, say running a red light, if you dont get caught, it wont be enforced and also, running a red light (the decision of whether you did or did not run said light) and if you will get a ticket is a decision made by a police officer or sheriff. Just as every other rule on PBN, so it might just be me, but I dont see any problem with adding another rule that cant be enforced fully, to the list of rules that already cant be enforced fully.
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor

Last edited by tinopaintball : 02-11-2013 at 12:22 AM.
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:18 AM #46
Marmaduke
Aqua Team Agg Force
 
Marmaduke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Washington
Marmaduke owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Marmaduke plays in the APPA D4 division
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
There are a lot of ideas that sound great in the concept phase and start to be an issue once they're applied. While making this an infraction may sound like a relatively painless way to introduce the rule, it will be difficult to enforce and consistency will be a real problem. At some point you have to realize that we stop being helpful and start being overbearing on our members. As John stated, we can't see PM's and there are many people that regularly gift payments without a problem. It's common sense to wear a condom, but some people choose not to for various reasons. Unless you have the resources to follow every man around and make sure he's using one, it's quite pointless (and unpopular) to make it a law that you must wear one. Some people choose to decline protection and they will have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

I think it's a far more reasonable measure to use a sticky in b/s/t to educate members on the reality of gifting payments and respect their right to make their own choices so long as they understand they're essentially waiving their buyer protection when they gift through paypal. Attempting to apply reasonably uniform enforcement of a no-gifting rule would demand tremendous resources and some would consider it to be an invasion of privacy. I too share your frustration with people getting ripped off with gifted payments. However, my first thought is not why this is allowed, but why they choose to waive their protection over a few bucks. I hope you can understand my view from the other side of the table.
But how is that any different from any other rule you implement? I know that your time is valuable, but any new rule will require some extra effort when first put into place. Furthermore, since when has ignorance been bliss? Is it not the user's responsibility to read the rules before posting?

With that said, I grew up being taught personal responsibility. I dislike seeing people being ripped off, but as you said, they are sacrificing the protection for a few bucks. No one's fault but their own. Still, I do not see this as being a large of a task as you say it will be. I moderate on a forum with a little over 17,000 members. While PBN is obviously much larger, you also have a much larger moderation staff. We implemented this rule to protect our members, and it was a relatively painless process.

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to address my suggestion. I do understand, and respect your opinion... Even if it's completely wrong.
__________________
Feedback
PBN Feedback 11/0/0
MCB Feedback 8/0/0
A5OG Feedback 12/0/0
Marmaduke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:23 AM #47
pynis
Reagan owns my soul
 
pynis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: beware the PHOG
pynis plays in the APPA D5 division
pynis is one of the top 250 posters on PbNation
pynis is Boss
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
If you would bother to read the thread, which would be appreciated, seeing as I address everything you said later on. Thanks, and sorry if that came out as rude.
I sat and read the whole thread dude. You still seem to think that the mods haven't fully addressed your concerns, as scattered as they may be. Moderating a forum as large as this one is a huge job and I'm pretty sure they don't collect a true paycheck from it.

This idea is kind of like anarchy to me; it seems like a good idea on paper, however, when put into effect, shows more disastrous then helpful. B/s/t on Pbnation has always been an at your own risk scenario.

I have done countless transactions on this site with little to no difficulty. Some transactions I don't even have feedback for. I have bought, sold, and traded items of little value to items of significant value. Every step of the way, I used common sense and walked away from anything that seemed even slightly sketchy.
__________________
Paintball24Seven is immature, a troll, and his pawnshop prices are laughable. Avoid business at all costs

"Originally posted by a_nxiety: screw ego's, everyone in the world shoots one. might as well sell them at hollister next to the pre-stained white hoodies and the jeans where knee's cost extra."
pynis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:27 AM #48
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
My biggest problem with what you guys are saying is that this basic argument of "we cant enforce it properly", can be applied in a very good way to more than one of your current rules. There is never a rule in the world that can be guaranteed proper enforcement, even say running a red light, if you dont get caught, it wont be enforced. Just as every rule on PBN, so it might just be me, but I dont see any problem with adding another rule that cant be enforced fully, to the list of rules that already cant be enforced fully.
You're right that the argument can be applied to many other existing rules. The difference here is that we're getting involved in every deal, and one that goes wrong because we failed to enforce the no gifting policy can prove to be a liability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmaduke View Post
But how is that any different from any other rule you implement? I know that your time is valuable, but any new rule will require some extra effort when first put into place. Furthermore, since when has ignorance been bliss? Is it not the user's responsibility to read the rules before posting?

With that said, I grew up being taught personal responsibility. I dislike seeing people being ripped off, but as you said, they are sacrificing the protection for a few bucks. No one's fault but their own. Still, I do not see this as being a large of a task as you say it will be. I moderate on a forum with a little over 17,000 members. While PBN is obviously much larger, you also have a much larger moderation staff. We implemented this rule to protect our members, and it was a relatively painless process.

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to address my suggestion. I do understand, and respect your opinion... Even if it's completely wrong.
Like you said, the user is responsible for knowing the rules. They should also be reading the paypal terms and regulations, but you and I both know they skipped to the bottom and hit agree. As stated before, the real problem is not the rules or gifting. It's the human involvement and natural lack of motivation to be responsible for themselves. Until we find a way to address the core of this problem, which is also shared with most scams in general, any effort to change the situation will likely be futile, unpopular, and cause unnecessary collateral damage to people that don't break the rules. Incorporating this change into our b/s/t rules will have little effect on what happens here but it will screw over the people that follow the rules and gift safely. People that don't exercise good judgment in b/s/t will always get ripped off. Adding one more line to our b/s/t rules won't change them.

PS - My forum is much bigger than yoooouuuurr forum

I don't necessarily speak for every moderator here, but I didn't sign up to infract or ban people over which payment type they used. I want to help people but honestly at that point I'm just invading their privacy.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:30 AM #49
pynis
Reagan owns my soul
 
pynis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: beware the PHOG
pynis plays in the APPA D5 division
pynis is one of the top 250 posters on PbNation
pynis is Boss
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
You're right that the argument can be applied to many other existing rules. The difference here is that we're getting involved in every deal, and one that goes wrong because we failed to enforce the no gifting policy can prove to be a liability.

Like you said, the user is responsible for knowing the rules. They should also be reading the paypal terms and regulations, but you and I both know they skipped to the bottom and hit agree. As stated before, the real problem is not the rules or gifting. It's the human involvement and natural lack of motivation to be responsible for themselves. Until we find a way to address the core of this problem, which is also shared with most scams in general, any effort to change the situation will likely be futile, unpopular, and cause unnecessary collateral damage to people that don't break the rules. Incorporating this change into our b/s/t rules will have little effect on what happens here but it will screw over the people that follow the rules and gift safely. People that don't exercise good judgment in b/s/t will always get ripped off. Adding one more line to our b/s/t rules won't change them.

PS - My forum is much bigger than yoooouuuurr forum

I don't necessarily speak for every moderator here, but I didn't sign up to infract or ban people over which payment type they used. I want to help people but honestly at that point I'm just invading their privacy.
.
__________________
Paintball24Seven is immature, a troll, and his pawnshop prices are laughable. Avoid business at all costs

"Originally posted by a_nxiety: screw ego's, everyone in the world shoots one. might as well sell them at hollister next to the pre-stained white hoodies and the jeans where knee's cost extra."
pynis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:34 AM #50
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by pynis View Post
I sat and read the whole thread dude. You still seem to think that the mods haven't fully addressed your concerns, as scattered as they may be. Moderating a forum as large as this one is a huge job and I'm pretty sure they don't collect a true paycheck from it.

This idea is kind of like anarchy to me; it seems like a good idea on paper, however, when put into effect, shows more disastrous then helpful. B/s/t on Pbnation has always been an at your own risk scenario.

I have done countless transactions on this site with little to no difficulty. Some transactions I don't even have feedback for. I have bought, sold, and traded items of little value to items of significant value. Every step of the way, I used common sense and walked away from anything that seemed even slightly sketchy.
Maybe in the beginning I was a little all over the place, but they still did not address some of the things I have said, it is getting better now though, still it is my opinion, and my opinion is that this should be a rule. Yes B/S/T has always been at your own risk, but there is also something to be said about Paypal's TOS and how allowing this could get many people (or PBN) into trouble with Paypal. No one seems to truly understand where I am coming from, but I am trying to make it clearer.
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:40 AM #51
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
You're right that the argument can be applied to many other existing rules. The difference here is that we're getting involved in every deal, and one that goes wrong because we failed to enforce the no gifting policy can prove to be a liability.
Yeah, I get that, but if rule #1 still sates that it is an at your own risk, that should dispel most any liability that you would have, especially if there was a sentence written in somewhere, which said something to the point of "we aren't liable for any thing that we dont catch, we try our best" or something like that.

It is just my opinion that while this rule might have some small drawbacks, the overall effects will be very positive.
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor

Last edited by tinopaintball : 02-11-2013 at 12:44 AM.
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:43 AM #52
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
Maybe in the beginning I was a little all over the place, but they still did not address some of the things I have said, it is getting better now though, still it is my opinion, and my opinion is that this should be a rule. Yes B/S/T has always been at your own risk, but there is also something to be said about Paypal's TOS and how allowing this could get many people (or PBN) into trouble with Paypal. No one seems to truly understand where I am coming from, but I am trying to make it clearer.
I think the difference in opinion does not come from a lack of following your points so much as it is looking beyond what's been said and envisioning how this change would be enforced.

In the end, this is what we're looking at:

1. Many people don't read the TOS for PbN or PayPal. They should and they choose not to. Their fault? Absolutely. Still our problem all said and done.
2. Adequate enforcement of the proposed rule is not practical with our given resources.
3. This rule will likely cause more interference in clean sales than it will with scams.
4. The core of the problem is the person making the choices, not the rules. We can make as much information as possible available to our users but ultimately, decision making power is in their hands. In the words of Ron White, you can't fix stupid.

We can commit the entire moderation staff to stopping gifted payment deals, but we'll still miss all the ones that happen via PM and we won't make much of a difference for the better. You've got an idea that sounds good on paper but doesn't quite make the cut in practice.

Also, food for thought... we'd probably save our member base more money by enforcing the no charging PP fees rule they have for sellers than we would by trying to prevent gifted payment scams.

Last edited by eforce : 02-11-2013 at 12:49 AM.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:50 AM #53
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
1. Many people don't read the TOS for PbN or PayPal. They should and they choose not to. Their fault? Absolutely. Still our problem all said and done.
It wouldnt be your problem though, say If I sign a contract/ agree to terms (signing up for PBN), then whether I read the terms or not doesnt matter, I am still bound to what they say. Since I made an action that would show that I plan to follow/ be bound by them (checking the little box).

*** What you responded to this does make sense, but I am solely talking from a legal point of view, you would not have any legal trouble with someone trying to prove that PBN was liable for their losses. But of course scammers are always a problem and they always will be.

My points dont matter anyways (since this is not ever going to become a new rule), but they have not truly been understood. I just dont like people saying that they are understanding what I am saying when they dont. This is probably none of your faults though, I probably just did a crappy job explaining certain parts.
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor

Last edited by tinopaintball : 02-11-2013 at 01:02 AM.
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:53 AM #54
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
It wouldnt be your problem though, say If I sign a contract/ agree to terms (signing up for PBN), then whether I read the terms or not doesnt matter, I am still bound to what they say. Since I made an action that would show that I plan to follow/ be bound by them (checking the little box).
Right, and look what happens. Scams, insults, spam, you name it. If people obeyed the TOS, moderators wouldn't exist. We have to operate under the assumption that the rules will be broken. To do anything short of that would be ignorant of what really goes on here. That leads us to the next point - when those rules are broken, we need to choose and perform corrective action. In the end, we'd be handing out infractions and bans to people that are not scammers, and the scammers would still be going about business as usual by PM. It would be entirely possible for us to ban 100 honest users for every 1 scammer we catch. Know what happens after we ban that 1 scammer? He makes a new account and does it again. Good members get punished and the bad guy gets a slap on the wrist.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:57 AM #55
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
Also, food for thought... we'd probably save our member base more money by enforcing the no charging PP fees rule they have for sellers than we would by trying to prevent gifted payment scams.
Yeah, that one of the things I have been trying to say, but I have probably not worded it right, or something. Buyers should not have to pay the fee, Paypal designed it so that it is the sellers fee for a reason. And that goes hand in hand with the no gifting TOS paypal has.
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor

Last edited by tinopaintball : 02-11-2013 at 01:03 AM.
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 01:02 AM #56
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
Yeah, that one of the things I have been trying to say, but I have probably not worded it right, or something. Buyers should not have to pay the fee, Paypal designed it so that it is the sellers fee for a reason.
That still comes back to my point that ultimately, the user is responsible for their self. If you don't want to pay the fee as a buyer, don't try to argue with the seller over it or look to the moderators for help. Make an offer low enough that after you pay the fees you got the price you wanted in the first place, or just say no. This is another problem that can be easily solved on the user end without us banning anyone or pulling staff off of other duties to enforce.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 01:08 AM #57
tinopaintball
 
 
tinopaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: cupertino, CA
Annual Supporting Member
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports Team VICIOUS
tinopaintball supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
Right, and look what happens. Scams, insults, spam, you name it. If people obeyed the TOS, moderators wouldn't exist. We have to operate under the assumption that the rules will be broken. To do anything short of that would be ignorant of what really goes on here. That leads us to the next point - when those rules are broken, we need to choose and perform corrective action. In the end, we'd be handing out infractions and bans to people that are not scammers, and the scammers would still be going about business as usual by PM. It would be entirely possible for us to ban 100 honest users for every 1 scammer we catch. Know what happens after we ban that 1 scammer? He makes a new account and does it again. Good members get punished and the bad guy gets a slap on the wrist.
I think I misunderstood what you were talking about at first, I was solely talking from a legal perspective, when I said that. Scammers are a problem, and they always will be. But also, you dont get banned for just one infraction, you have to have a few, and they eventually fall off of your record (the points). I would have to say that most, if not all "honest" users here on PBN would learn after 1 infraction and not risk doing it again (or at least they should).

Edit, we are going in circles, and this is the only way this thread will ever go, so now I am not going to post again. It is just easier that way. Thanks for bringing up some good counterpoints. It is just my opinion that this can only be a good thing, even considering everything.
__________________
Current Markers;
Vicious CSL #3 --- Candy red ninja 68/45 --- SEED Rotor
Etha --------------------Ninja 68/45----------- Rotor

Last edited by tinopaintball : 02-11-2013 at 01:12 AM.
tinopaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 01:18 AM #58
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
I think I misunderstood what you were talking about at first, I was solely talking from a legal perspective, when I said that. Scammers are a problem, and they always will be. But also, you dont get banned for just one infraction, you have to have a few, and they eventually fall off of your record (the points). I would have to say that most, if not all "honest" users here on PBN would learn after 1 infraction and not risk doing it again (or at least they should).

Edit, we are going in circles, and this is the only way this thread will ever go, so now I am not going to post again. It is just easier that way. Thanks for bringing up some good counterpoints. It is just my opinion that this can only be a good thing, even considering everything.
There are quite a few great b/s/t'ers with multiple infractions for similar violations. You should also take into account that many people that would get infracta-banned for the gift rule may have existing points for non-b/s/t violations. Again, I think the real reason we're not seeing eye to eye on this is that moderators can see what goes on behind the scenes and we have more information available to formulate an accurate representation of what would happen if we do ________. I agree that this can be a good thing. I just don't see it doing more good than bad in the context of what we can reasonably enforce. I appreciate you taking the time to have a mature discussion about this and if you can find a way to efficiently apply this, I'm all ears.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 01:31 AM #59
L8r_H8r
Timers are ready
 
L8r_H8r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: *407*
L8r_H8r supports our troops
L8r_H8r supports DLX Technology
It took a minute to compose this post, so the above posts may have already addressed a topic:


While I don't see this as an enforceable rule, it should at least be added to the B/S/T tips (perhaps being cautious when sending payments as "gifts":


Quote:
Originally Posted by USAFWD
Essential Buy/Sell/Trade Tips:
Buy/Sell/Trade here on PbNation at your own risk. We assume no responsibility for any part of any transaction.
Be polite to buyers and sellers. This includes people you have no intention of dealing with. Other potential dealers won't want to deal with you if they see you are rude to others.
If the deal is too good to be true, then it probably is. Use a 3rd party or find a different deal.
Do not rely on PMs. Save important information such as PbN PMs, instant message logs, emails, texts.
Buyers: Ask questions. Make sure everything you want is included in the sale.
Sellers: Be incredibly clear about the condition of items and exactly what is included. Don't leave off damage or wear to try to sell an item faster or for more money. It will cause problems in the long run.
Ask for detailed pictures. Feel free to ask the seller to take a picture of the item with their name, your name and today's date on a piece of paper with the item.
Make sure sellers have their items listed in a thread. Deals strictly through PMs aren't eligible for feedback.
Always exchange personal contact information such as full name, home address, email address, and phone number. Call the person and speak with them on the phone.
When dealing with someone under the age of 18 you should always talk to their parents on the phone.
Never send money or product before a complete deal is agreed to by both sides and full contact information is exchanged and verified.
If the other party is unwilling to share complete contact information, don't deal with them.
Make sure both sides agree on when and how money or items should ship and then update the other party if things change.
If your item has a serial number, write it down. Take pictures of it. Also make note of every distinguishing mark it has.
Use a credit card whenever possible: If you use a credit card, you can file a dispute with the credit card company if you do not receive the item you purchased or if what you receive is not what you ordered.
Do NOT send cash, EVER. Often it will never reach its destination and there is no way to recover the funds or even prove money was sent.
After the deal is finalized, post it right in the thread. Quote the first post so it can't be edited. Be very clear about everything that is included.
The person with the least amount of feedback generally ships first. Check feedback thoroughly to make sure it is legitimate. If you don't want to ship first, simply don't. Use a 3rd party or find a different deal.
When shipping, always use Delivery Confirmation AND signature confirmation from USPS, UPS, FedEx, or DHL. (Require a signature!)
Always insure high value items for the cost of replacement. Take the extra expense of insurance into account when selling your item. Insurance protects you if the item is damaged or lost while being shipped.
Keep all tracking slips, shipping receipts, payment receipts, money order receipts etc. These items will help you resolve potential problems and are needed for insurance claims with shipping companies.
Do not leave feedback until you have everything you were promised in hand.
Remember, user rules posted in their thread don't mean anything and aren't enforceable. The only rules that matter can be found here: PbNation B/S/T Rules. It is good etiquette to read over another user's rules before posting in their thread because you might choose not to deal with them if they have too many made up rules or rules you do not like. You are not under any obligation to follow any of these user made up rules.
It would be ridiculous to have to enforce a new rule against gifting while there are "Buy/sell/trade at your own risk" clauses all over the forum, the two would just counter each other. There are Rules, FAQs, announcements, and stickies that all state this. Users need to take their own precautions when proceeding with ANY transaction, regardless of join date, "high-end" trades, and feedback ratings of any seller/trader.

If a rule were to be placed, how would it be moderated? There's no way to see what goes on behind closed doors via PMs, so the only other way would be to moderate threads. The closing of threads stating "gifted payments only please" would be the most reasonable punishment in my opinion, but nothing further than that. Any thread stating that just needs to be avoided. Move on, there's something else out there. It just comes down solely on the user and common sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteGeek91 View Post
Oh, and to add to the list,

It specifically states in the TOS here that it is AGAINST TOS to post another user's personal info without his consent.

Well wtf?

I see on every "Scam thread", somebody posts the scammers FULL personal details. That's exactly why I won't deal here.

There's two issues with that.

For one, that is wrong of PbNation to just allow, it could cause some serious legal issues if something arose.

For one, just think "if", some idiot that lived near the scammer, went to that address, trespassed, beat him, stole it back, whatever it might be. Well then PbNation will be caught up in LOTS of legal trouble for allowing his info to be leaked on this website.
While I must admit, I am not entirely familiar with any laws regarding posting personal information on the internet (though there are TONS of methods to obtaining this information anyway), doing so by the PbN Staff has stopped and prevented scamming sprees that have occurred in the past.

Moderators have asked (and even edited posts themselves) when personal information has been posted when the OP has yet to prove that they've been scammed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteGeek91 View Post

And for two, just because someone makes a "Scam report" on here, doesn't mean crap until proven. I seen way too many threads here, where a guy says "(Insert name here) scammed me, here's his address, who lives by him? I want him to learn a lesson" Well then a few days later the "scammer" posts, and says he was in the hospital, had family issues, etc.

Well how would you feel if someone went and beat up a completely innocent seller, because too many idiots wanted to have "balls" and go do something about it.
In all of my years of going through and reading the theft report section, I have NEVER seen this scenario. Empty threats are exactly that, but never have I seen anything come of it. It is highly advised by all members as well as PbN staff to NEVER take action into your own hands, so if anyone was foolish to do so anyway, then they accept that their actions may have legal (and possibly even physical) consequences. Again, common sense.

I find your claim of coming across these types of threads to be absolutely ludicrous. I mean you no disrespect, but if you're going to make a claim like this, post a link.




My contribution: add something that addresses gifting payments in the B/S/T tips, but don't enforce it as a rule.



As a side note: PayPal does recognize when an account receives an influx of gifted payments, and they DO investigate the account and take action when needed.
__________________
SAMBROWN: He's a baller, a ladies man and most of all a stand up guy. I'd let him date my sister if I had one. So I guess my mother will do.
Auctionjunkie! : While most people consider ST to stand for Small Talk I feel it's more Septic Tank than anything else. It's where all the waste and refuge goes.


Shocker Owners

Last edited by L8r_H8r : 02-11-2013 at 01:36 AM.
L8r_H8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 02:37 AM #60
Metal Moose
M-M-M-Monster Kill!!!
 
Metal Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Metal Moose has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
IMHO, asking a seller to front the bill or gift is STEALING. Simple as that. Stores pay their overhead to be able to sell products to you, online sellers have to pay Ebay, Amazon, and PayPal fees. It is just another example of greed and dishonesty.
I believe it to be PbN's responsibility to support the proper use of services when selling on PbN; which includes discouraging stealing from PayPal (gift option) and from PbN Buyers (Buyer Pay Fees).
For those saying it's too big of a task to implement and enforce a new rule like this one, wrong. It can and should be done.
__________________
love the smell of paint in the morning!
Metal Moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 09:57 AM #61
L8r_H8r
Timers are ready
 
L8r_H8r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: *407*
L8r_H8r supports our troops
L8r_H8r supports DLX Technology
Another post for the movement and still no suggestion on how it should be handled.

How do you propose that the rule be enforced? It's going to be broken, there is absolutely no doubt about that. Just because a seller doesn't specify that he/she will only accept gifts in their thread, doesn't mean they will disclose those terms within PMs. How will the PbN staff enforce those incidents? Sure, the user could report the seller for violating the rule if it was implemented via screenshots of the incident, but how would the seller be reprimanded? Infracting the thread that doesn't mention anything about gifting? Doesn't sound practical to me. Perhaps there is a way to moderate this rule, but I'm just not seeing it and so far nobody has suggested on how this would be handled.

Let me note that I am not an advocate for gifting. I have never asked a buyer to send their funds as gifts. Sure, occasionally I receive a personal payment for a transaction, but I don't fret about it (as I'm sure most other sellers don't either). But again, it just comes all back down to the user. If they are comfortable sending a gift when asked to, so be it. Si is it PbNs fault now? Absolutely not. By implementing this rule, all I see is blame being put on the PbN staff for not moderating a transaction when a user gets scammed because they gifted a payment.

I don't believe people to be ignorant, they just CHOOSE to be (and, well, sometimes they just are). A simple visit to the theft report section SHOULD deter gifting, and it may for some, but not all (which is the focus here, to protect all users). Just don't gift, simple as that. A rule should not have to be made for a user's decision to be ignorant, then complains about it when there are repercussions for doing so.
__________________
SAMBROWN: He's a baller, a ladies man and most of all a stand up guy. I'd let him date my sister if I had one. So I guess my mother will do.
Auctionjunkie! : While most people consider ST to stand for Small Talk I feel it's more Septic Tank than anything else. It's where all the waste and refuge goes.


Shocker Owners

Last edited by L8r_H8r : 02-11-2013 at 09:59 AM.
L8r_H8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 01:05 PM #62
eforce
Factory PB
 
eforce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Annual Supporting Member
eforce is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
eforce plays in the PSP
eforce is an NCPA player
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Moose View Post
For those saying it's too big of a task to implement and enforce a new rule like this one, wrong. It can and should be done.
It's not so much the size of the task as the end result. I think I covered it pretty well here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
We have to operate under the assumption that the rules will be broken. To do anything short of that would be ignorant of what really goes on here. That leads us to the next point - when those rules are broken, we need to choose and perform corrective action. In the end, we'd be handing out infractions and bans to people that are not scammers, and the scammers would still be going about business as usual by PM. It would be entirely possible for us to ban 100 honest users for every 1 scammer we catch. Know what happens after we ban that 1 scammer? He makes a new account and does it again. Good members get punished and the bad guy gets a slap on the wrist.
eforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 06:42 PM #63
Metal Moose
M-M-M-Monster Kill!!!
 
Metal Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Metal Moose has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
We have to operate under the assumption that the rules will be broken. To do anything short of that would be ignorant of what really goes on here. That leads us to the next point - when those rules are broken, we need to choose and perform corrective action.
While I follow and agree with that much, the omitted is reducto ad absurdum.
Offense must be reported immediately, if you follow through with transaction of gifting or paying fees, you are just as much involved in the improper sale as the seller. First offense: a simple warning for fair disclosure of the updated rule, second and following offenses can warrant a temp ban (if available) or permanent ban. I don't feel I needed to spell out the obvious ease of implementation, any process of policy proofing would promptly purge the problems.

P.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8r_H8r View Post
Just because a seller doesn't specify that he/she will only accept gifts in their thread, doesn't mean they will disclose those terms within PMs. How will the PbN staff enforce those incidents?
Simply add a 'Report User' option to the Private Message system. This should already be there. As for claims this is just protecting the ignorant, maybe as a bi-product, but not the main objective. I, personally, wouldn't want to promote theft, dishonesty, and illegal use of other businesses.
I think I covered it pretty well here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Moose View Post
IMHO, asking a seller to front the bill or gift is STEALING. Simple as that. Stores pay their overhead to be able to sell products to you, online sellers have to pay Ebay, Amazon, and PayPal fees. It is just another example of greed and dishonesty.
I believe it to be PbN's responsibility to support the proper use of services when selling on PbN; which includes discouraging stealing from PayPal (gift option) and from PbN Buyers (Buyer Pay Fees).
For those saying it's too big of a task to implement and enforce a new rule like this one, wrong. It can and should be done.
__________________
love the smell of paint in the morning!

Last edited by Metal Moose : 02-11-2013 at 07:03 PM.
Metal Moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump