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Old 02-09-2013, 05:58 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteGeek91 View Post
You ain't responsible if your friend smokes, BUT when he's in your car
Silly analogies are silly. Lets stick with reality as much as possible please.


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Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
I know that some people would try and go under the MAP with "used", but used is used.
We actually did that before. And it failed horribly. Stores literally went out of business over it. If you are serious about it, think it through how it could be done better and make a new thread. But just saying "used is used" won't stop people from opening a gun, claiming it was "tested" and undercutting stores.


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and also what type of ads (mainly what providers) are allowed on the website, tons of people (including me) get messages that the ads hosted here are distributers of malware and viruses.
I'll give you $100 of my own personal money if you can provide a PbNation ad being served currently that links to a distributor of malware or viruses today. I'll check this thread again at midnight...


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To me it just seems like there is a lot that could be done to improve PBN, but no one is interested in doing it.
Really? The one person who works at PbNation isn't spending their Saturday discussing it with you?
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:01 PM #23
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The only way to make deals completely safe would be for us to do a 3rd party service on everything sold here.
I think that is not true, that would help (might even possibly solve it), but it isnt the ONLY way, and it is never going to happen, so why does it matter. So we should be looking into effective changes that can be made to make PBN a better website, there are tons of ways, I am only trying to get some of the smaller changes implemented. As I keep saying there are a fair number of small things that should be changed on PBN (I could make a long list). And I and many other think that this should be implemented as a rule change, also due to the fact that it is a Paypal rule, just doubles up why it should be done.

I think there is no true equivalent of PBN anywhere else, so we should strive to make it its best.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:13 PM #24
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We actually did that before. And it failed horribly. Stores literally went out of business over it. If you are serious about it, think it through how it could be done better and make a new thread. But just saying "used is used" won't stop people from opening a gun, claiming it was "tested" and undercutting stores.
If it is done right, I don't see how it could cause a problem, I wasn't around the first time it was being done

I'll give you $100 of my own personal money if you can provide a PbNation ad being served currently that links to a distributor of malware or viruses today. I'll check this thread again at midnight...
I dont need any money, and I really dont want to start anything, but quite frequently I get the site closed by any brower saying that an ad is from a distributer of viruses and malware, I know that is not on purpose, but it does happen. And also not just to me, but to many people


Really? The one person who works at PbNation isn't spending their Saturday discussing it with you?
Yes you are, but changes arent being made, and from most of what I hear, it sounds to me that there is a predisposed attitude of, "I (PBN) dont want to change the rule"
I would like if nothing else, for these rules to at least be considered.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:25 PM #25
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Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
If it is done right, I don't see how it could cause a problem, I wasn't around the first time it was being done
Then start a new thread on how to do it "right." Put some thought into it. The main issue is that too many people in paintball have access to "deals" so people will list items that have merely been taken out of the package for much cheaper than


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I dont need any money, and I really dont want to start anything, but quite frequently I get the site closed by any brower saying that an ad is from a distributer of viruses and malware, I know that is not on purpose, but it does happen. And also not just to me, but to many people
I'm not saying it has never happened. I am saying we deal with it so swiftly that I don't think you can find a single one. And the real issue is that the "alert" lasts much longer than any sketchy ad so all you really have seen most likely is the after affects long after we removed any possible threat. So, can you find a single person who was actually infected by PbN? I don't think you can...


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Yes you are, but changes arent being made, and from most of what I hear, it sounds to me that there is a predisposed attitude of, "I (PBN) dont want to change the rule"
Part of the problem is that people put out a half thought idea like, "if I remove a gun from the package, I should be able to list it as used" and then get upset when we don't jump on it even though we have tried it and it went very badly. We like stores. We protect stores. Stores are how lots of us started playing and are one of the ways moms can get exposed to paintball and people can get equipment fixed properly. If you want us to allow new items to be listed as used, you better have a thought out way to protect them.


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* edit; I also am not trying to say anything bad about your 3rd party, I am just saying you recommending 3rd party is or at least looks like a toyota salesman recommending a camry over a honda civic, like recommending your own thing, even though that might not be the way it was meant.
Good thing I have 20+ years in paintball experience backing it up so generally the only people who insinuate something like that are people who are new. Plus, like I said above, bad analogies are silly so lets stick to reality.


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I would like if nothing else, for these rules to at least be considered.
What rules? You are all over the place but you haven't actually suggested a rule aside from the one in the thread topic. And you have spent way more space dedicated to venting about everything else.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:47 PM #26
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Maybe I should have said rule, because I think of any possible rules that would be one of, if not the best.

Yes, I do appreciate that you take the time, and I think there are quite a few things that you guys are doing an amazing job at, I just think this needs to be addressed, the whole PayPal gifting/ seller saying + fees stuff.

I have stated my opinion, and I don't really think that you fully understand what I am trying to say, and that might be my fault (not descriptive enough). But I don't really see this conversation going anywhere for either of us. I just feel that it was important that some things are said.


Edit*- And to address your point of people taking things they get at a discount and flipping them for money, no matter what anyone does that problem will and can't ever be solved, that is just greed and ignorance for the people/ Pb stores they are hurting.

Also I agree, you guys do a good job of keeping this site clean, but It is quite frequently a problem that quite a few people have. And it isn't just a warning, whenever I get it, it is always this site is loading am external ad from a registered distributor of malware and viruses. Then it shows the address, which can be different, but is always ad.(something).(this also varies). Just saying that it isn't a warning it is actually trying to load content. But I only ever brought it up, because it happened to me a few times so far today.
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:10 PM #27
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I have stated my opinion, and I don't really think that you fully understand what I am trying to say, and that might be my fault (not descriptive enough).
I've made over a thousand Paypal transactions. And I have reviewed or mediated thousands more deals here, so I think I understand what you mean. If I don't follow, then take a minute and compose your thoughts to explain yourself better.

My issue with making a new rule not allowing gifting is that I am not sure it would be effective and we'd then have to enforce it. Making rules we can't or don't enforce is silly. And banning users sucks. Plus, we can't actually see people's PMs. Not to mention, most users who gift payments here do so with no issues. In fact, most deals on here have no issues. We have hundreds of deals happen each day with most going just fine. However, we'd love it if every deal would go perfectly so if a new rule will help users and we can enforce it, then it's a no brainer. I'm just not convinced this would meet those two simple criteria. And over two pages I haven't seen much to sway me.

And it's hard to say that "x site" does it better because they don't allow it when I personally have had mods from those same sites ask me to gift payments! I didn't even know it was a rule. Plus, my own personal ratio of being taken advantage of on those same sites is also much higher. Although none of those issues were due to gifting, just items being not as described.


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Also I agree, you guys do a good job of keeping this site clean, but It is quite frequently a problem that quite a few people have. And it isn't just a warning, whenever I get it, it is always this site is loading am external ad from a registered distributor of malware and viruses. Then it shows the address, which can be different, but is always ad.(something).(this also varies). Just saying that it isn't a warning it is actually trying to load content. But I only ever brought it up, because it happened to me a few times so far today.
Screenshot of the ad in question? Url? Anything to back this up at all would help...


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Edit*- And to address your point of people taking things they get at a discount and flipping them for money, no matter what anyone does that problem will and can't ever be solved, that is just greed and ignorance for the people/ Pb stores they are hurting.
But what you're suggesting (allowing people to simply open the box and peel off stickers) would make the issue much, much worse. We already went through it once and had to take what we consider drastic measures to minimize it. I don't see how why we would undo that.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:52 PM #28
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I've made over a thousand Paypal transactions. And I have reviewed or mediated thousands more deals here, so I think I understand what you mean. If I don't follow, then take a minute and compose your thoughts to explain yourself better.

My issue with making a new rule not allowing gifting is that I am not sure it would be effective and we'd then have to enforce it. Making rules we can't or don't enforce is silly. And banning users sucks. Plus, we can't actually see people's PMs. Not to mention, most users who gift payments here do so with no issues. In fact, most deals on here have no issues. We have hundreds of deals happen each day with most going just fine. However, we'd love it if every deal would go perfectly so if a new rule will help users and we can enforce it, then it's a no brainer. I'm just not convinced this would meet those two simple criteria. And over two pages I haven't seen much to sway me.

And it's hard to say that "x site" does it better because they don't allow it when I personally have had mods from those same sites ask me to gift payments! I didn't even know it was a rule. Plus, my own personal ratio of being taken advantage of on those same sites is also much higher. Although none of those issues were due to gifting, just items being not as described.




Screenshot of the ad in question? Url? Anything to back this up at all would help...




But what you're suggesting (allowing people to simply open the box and peel off stickers) would make the issue much, much worse. We already went through it once and had to take what we consider drastic measures to minimize it. I don't see how why we would undo that.
I am not suggesting anything for peeling off a stick and letting it be used, I am just saying it is used, I am mainly saying that some people are greedy and ignorant and will hurt anyone or anything of they can make a quick buck, they wouldn't care that they are hurting pb store which is what you are saying. But it still happens I see alot of things that are new, and people always say Pm me for price, or they put the MAP and say something like willing to go a lot lower. It will happen no matter what is what I am saying, and it is sometimes the right move, but I don't think it is always the right move. I still don't think we are still completely understanding each other, but I don't want to keep going back and forth, I can try and explain it later if I think of anything, there are just a fair amount of people that think this rule would help a fair amount, because it gives buyers the ability to have you help them. Right now if someone wants to get a deal and the person they are trying to deal with says (against paypals policy) gifting only. But with a rule like this it would allow the buyer to get help from a mod, and if the seller was say a scanner, then they probably would drop the deal right then, because of PayPals helpfulness. And i think that would stop alot of the scams that is money for item, but sadly it wouldn't help with trades.
And for the ad, I wouldn't know any of that, It closes the webpage right when it gave me the message, and I didn't bother to take any screenshots of the message or anything.

I am just tried of going back and forth, we have 2 different thoughts on this, and I don't think that is going to change, but thanks for reading and responding to what I had to say.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:31 PM #29
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You're all over the place. If you have a good idea about how to better our policy on selling new equipment on the site, flesh it out and post it.

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I see alot of things that are new, and people always say Pm me for price, or they put the MAP and say something like willing to go a lot lower.
So you are saying we should be more strict about what gets sold as "new?"
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:17 AM #30
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When did I ever mention new, I am talking about used. And also my main point throughout this whole thing has been this PayPal no gifting/ no charging for fees. And then you always respond with I am all over the place, which I might be, but I am just trying to respond to whatever you wrote.

Honestly I don't know about you, but I have been done with this stupid conversation thing for the past few posts, I just don't think we are understanding each other fully. So we are really just annoying each other at this point.
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:50 AM #31
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Quote:
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When did I ever mention new, I am talking about used.

You mentioned "new" items several time including in my quote above and this one too:

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Originally Posted by tinopaintball View Post
related, but I also think they should change the definition of used, back to used. They say that new, or only tested goes in a forum, but seriously, only tested?
We group new items together with opened and only tested items so people can't open a marker or shoot one ball through it to sell it in the used forum. If you have a better way of grouping things, we are here to listen. However, try to tell us why your way is better and how it would still protect stores.


And here's my issue with preventing allowing users from paying how they want to:

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My issue with making a new rule not allowing gifting is that I am not sure it would be effective and we'd then have to enforce it. Making rules we can't or don't enforce is silly. And banning users sucks. Plus, we can't actually see people's PMs. Not to mention, most users who gift payments here do so with no issues. In fact, most deals on here have no issues. We have hundreds of deals happen each day with most going just fine. However, we'd love it if every deal would go perfectly so if a new rule will help users and we can enforce it, then it's a no brainer. I'm just not convinced this would meet those two simple criteria. And over two pages I haven't seen much to sway me.

And it's hard to say that "x site" does it better because they don't allow it when I personally have had mods from those same sites ask me to gift payments! I didn't even know it was a rule. Plus, my own personal ratio of being taken advantage of on those same sites is also much higher. Although none of those issues were due to gifting, just items being not as described.
I am just not convinced that people who intend to scam will follow a new rule telling them they can't ask for gifted payments. But I know new rules will affect our honest users. Especially if we start banning people to uphold it.

It's OK if you don't want to reply. But this is why making rules for hundreds of thousands of people to follow is more difficult than making or agreeing with a thread in here. We have to flesh out ideas to see how they would work.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:03 AM #32
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I am just not convinced that people who intend to scam will follow a new rule telling them they can't ask for gifted payments. But I know new rules will affect our honest users. Especially if we start banning people to uphold it.

It's OK if you don't want to reply. But this is why making rules for hundreds of thousands of people to follow is more difficult than making or agreeing with a thread in here. We have to flesh out ideas to see how they would work.
Then why not star making it an infraction? Also, disallowing gifting helps honest users (both buyers and sellers). The buyers are protected since they have an avenue to potentially get a refund after a scam. The seller is protected because if a buyer attempts to file a frivolous claim on a gifted transaction, they do not run the risk of PayPal suspending/terminating their account for violating its TOS.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:43 PM #33
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Then why not star making it an infraction? Also, disallowing gifting helps honest users (both buyers and sellers). The buyers are protected since they have an avenue to potentially get a refund after a scam. The seller is protected because if a buyer attempts to file a frivolous claim on a gifted transaction, they do not run the risk of PayPal suspending/terminating their account for violating its TOS.
There are a lot of ideas that sound great in the concept phase and start to be an issue once they're applied. While making this an infraction may sound like a relatively painless way to introduce the rule, it will be difficult to enforce and consistency will be a real problem. At some point you have to realize that we stop being helpful and start being overbearing on our members. As John stated, we can't see PM's and there are many people that regularly gift payments without a problem. It's common sense to wear a condom, but some people choose not to for various reasons. Unless you have the resources to follow every man around and make sure he's using one, it's quite pointless (and unpopular) to make it a law that you must wear one. Some people choose to decline protection and they will have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

I think it's a far more reasonable measure to use a sticky in b/s/t to educate members on the reality of gifting payments and respect their right to make their own choices so long as they understand they're essentially waiving their buyer protection when they gift through paypal. Attempting to apply reasonably uniform enforcement of a no-gifting rule would demand tremendous resources and some would consider it to be an invasion of privacy. I too share your frustration with people getting ripped off with gifted payments. However, my first thought is not why this is allowed, but why they choose to waive their protection over a few bucks. I hope you can understand my view from the other side of the table.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:49 PM #34
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Then why not star making it an infraction? Also, disallowing gifting helps honest users (both buyers and sellers). The buyers are protected since they have an avenue to potentially get a refund after a scam. The seller is protected because if a buyer attempts to file a frivolous claim on a gifted transaction, they do not run the risk of PayPal suspending/terminating their account for violating its TOS.
Yes, this makes sense, It would be an amazing new rule to have, for either an infraction, warning, or something else.


Honestly, I think the sticky is a good start, but I don't think everyone reads them, and I don't even think everyone knows they exist.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:12 PM #35
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Honestly, I think the sticky is a good start, but I don't think everyone reads them, and I don't even think everyone knows they exist.
So if we make a sticky announcing the new rule, what makes you think people will read that either? We have the rules listed in every forum and people break them on a daily basis, some intentionally. Enforcing the rule would more or less require us to comb every single b/s/t thread looking for people that require gifted payments, and even if that were possible, I'd wager that we'd miss at least 50% of the gifted payments anyway. In the mean time, we'd be dedicating an enormous amount of volunteer hours for one little rule and neglecting duties in our other forums.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:24 PM #36
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So if we make a sticky announcing the new rule, what makes you think people will read that either? We have the rules listed in every forum and people break them on a daily basis, some intentionally. Enforcing the rule would more or less require us to comb every single b/s/t thread looking for people that require gifted payments, and even if that were possible, I'd wager that we'd miss at least 50% of the gifted payments anyway. In the mean time, we'd be dedicating an enormous amount of volunteer hours for one little rule and neglecting duties in our other forums.
Yes, but one thing that I have mentioned is that it is not just a rule. It gives buyers a power to stand up to people that want gifting, and no one ever said that you need to comb any thread. I have seen quite a few situations where a buyer would like to send the payment normal, but the seller convinces them otherwise. Sometimes that is a scam, sometimes it is not. But it does allow the buyer to get in contact with a mod or someone else, if such a situation arises. And having a third party get involved would then weed out many possible scamers.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:35 PM #37
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Yes, but one thing that I have mentioned is that it is not just a rule. It gives buyers a power to stand up to people that want gifting, and no one ever said that you need to comb any thread. I have seen quite a few situations where a buyer would like to send the payment normal, but the seller convinces them otherwise. Sometimes that is a scam, sometimes it is not. But it does allow the buyer to get in contact with a mod or someone else, if such a situation arises. And having a third party get involved would then weed out many possible scamers.
The word no is all you need. If a seller isn't willing to let you pay with protection, say no. Either he lets you do a normal payment, or you buy from someone else. What I've been getting at is that this should be common sense, and to the people that don't realize they can say no, or choose to waive their buyer protection, a rule isn't going to save them from themselves. The only thing we can do is make sure they're aware of what happens when you gift a payment and hope that they won't make a mistake over 3% fees. I mean think about it - do you really want to do business with someone that requires a moderator just to arrange payment? That has bad news written all over it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:43 PM #38
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The word no is all you need. If a seller isn't willing to let you pay with protection, say no. Either he lets you do a normal payment, or you buy from someone else. What I've been getting at is that this should be common sense, and to the people that don't realize they can say no, or choose to waive their buyer protection, a rule isn't going to save them from themselves. The only thing we can do is make sure they're aware of what happens when you gift a payment and hope that they won't make a mistake over 3% fees. I mean think about it - do you really want to do business with someone that requires a moderator just to arrange payment? That has bad news written all over it.
Honestly, it is hopeless, none of you are getting it, and I am pretty sure you never will. You just changed what I said and argued with yourself. I have not gotten 1 response from a mod yet that actually address what I am saying. It is always a roundabout answer, that isnt really what I was talking about in the first place. You are trying to be helpful and I thank you for that, whereas John wouldn't even listen to what we (or I) had to say.

And to address your final question, No I would not like "to do business with someone that requires a moderator just to arrange payment", But I would like the mods to show some interest in another possible, and very logical way of reducing as much scamming as we can here on pbn.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:54 PM #39
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Honestly, it is hopeless, none of you are getting it, and I am pretty sure you never will. You just changed what I said and argued with yourself. I have not gotten 1 response from a mod yet that actually address what I am saying. It is always a roundabout answer, that isnt really what I was talking about in the first place You are trying to be helpful and I thank you for that, whereas John wouldn't even listen.
I understand your frustration, so let me try to clarify by addressing each concern individually. Again, I'm not trying to bash you here - I just want to make sure you see this from both sides of the table.
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It gives buyers a power to stand up to people that want gifting
As stated above, every person on this site has the right to decline a deal without consequence.
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no one ever said that you need to comb any thread.
From a moderation standpoint, it would be necessary with a rule like this because we will run into dozens of complaints about "if this person has gifting listed why can't I do it" or we will be accused of responsibility for any gifting scam that occurs after this rule. Liability is another reason that we traditionally stay hands off with b/s/t deals. If we get involved, we're influencing it and anything that happens afterward could potentially be tied back to us.
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I have seen quite a few situations where a buyer would like to send the payment normal, but the seller convinces them otherwise. Sometimes that is a scam, sometimes it is not.
This would happen via PM, and we would have no way of knowing about it until after the fact.
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But it does allow the buyer to get in contact with a mod or someone else, if such a situation arises.
This can be done with the current rules.
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And having a third party get involved would then weed out many possible scamers.
We have a list of moderators that conduct third party services for a nominal fee. As this is not a catch-all solution, we get back to square one - buyers need to be prudent in their choice of who they work with and how they do business. The vast majority of scams that occur could have been avoided with common sense or the willingness to walk away from a deal that doesn't seem right. I know that's not the answer you're looking for and I understand that there are many theoretical changes we could make, but in the end the human element will always be the weakest link in the chain and we can't change that.

If you have a specific question about this or an idea of how to practically address this problem, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. I'm not here to dismiss any potential for change. I'm only here because I want to talk about viable solutions for a difficult problem.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:58 PM #40
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Originally Posted by eforce View Post
I understand your frustration, so let me try to clarify by addressing each concern individually. Again, I'm not trying to bash you here - I just want to make sure you see this from both sides of the table.

As stated above, every person on this site has the right to decline a deal without consequence.

From a moderation standpoint, it would be necessary with a rule like this because we will run into dozens of complaints about "if this person has gifting listed why can't I do it" or we will be accused of responsibility for any gifting scam that occurs after this rule. Liability is another reason that we traditionally stay hands off with b/s/t deals. If we get involved, we're influencing it and anything that happens afterward could potentially be tied back to us.

This would happen via PM, and we would have no way of knowing about it until after the fact.

This can be done with the current rules.

We have a list of moderators that conduct third party services for a nominal fee. As this is not a catch-all solution, we get back to square one - buyers need to be prudent in their choice of who they work with and how they do business. The vast majority of scams that occur could have been avoided with common sense or the willingness to walk away from a deal that doesn't seem right. I know that's not the answer you're looking for and I understand that there are many theoretical changes we could make, but in the end the human element will always be the weakest link in the chain and we can't change that.

If you have a specific question about this or an idea of how to practically address this problem, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. I'm not here to dismiss any potential for change. I'm only here because I want to talk about viable solutions for a difficult problem.
You did kind of address what I am saying, and thank you again, but you are still not understanding my side, and that is fine (I am not frustrated, at this point I dont care at all). I do understand your side, just as I have for the past However long this thread has been going on for, but I think that considering everything (both sides), this would be a great new addition to the list of B/S/T rules.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:01 AM #41
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You did kind of address what I am saying, and thank you again, but you are still not understanding my side, and that is fine (I am not frustrated, at this point I dont care at all). I do understand your side, just as I have for the past However long this thread has been going on for, but I think that considering everything (both sides), this would be a great new addition to the list of B/S/T rules.
Can you elaborate on what we're not getting? I'd really like to make sure you've had a fair discussion here.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:03 AM #42
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Yes, but one thing that I have mentioned is that it is not just a rule. It gives buyers a power to stand up to people that want gifting, and no one ever said that you need to comb any thread. I have seen quite a few situations where a buyer would like to send the payment normal, but the seller convinces them otherwise. Sometimes that is a scam, sometimes it is not. But it does allow the buyer to get in contact with a mod or someone else, if such a situation arises. And having a third party get involved would then weed out many possible scamers.
Then maybe you should dedicate your free time to enforcing the rule. It's very difficult to stay on top of a rule like that. Essentially, that is what the mods are saying in a nut shell.
Also, the mods are here more to help than swing their ban hammers.

Check my feedback. Out of those transactions I cannot tell you how many people gifted the payment either just because they sent it that way or because I gave them the option. I never require buyers to gift. I simply tell them it would be appreciated.

If gifting a payment is really that big of a deal to you then don't gift it. It's pretty simple. If a seller requires a gifted payment, then move on. I guarantee that the seller is not the only person selling the item you want/need on this site.

P.s. John, you are probably my most favorite mod ever. Even though I am from Lawrence,KS and you're from MO
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