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Old 12-03-2012, 10:42 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offthahorse View Post
I think these questions are flawed and unrealistic, therefore the conclusions you have come to and tried to "get us to understand" are also flawed.

No field owner in his right mind is going to combine unlimited paint with unlimited ROF and large teams, simply due to it being a recipe for chaos.

I could see unlimited paint with either capped rof, no full auto, or limit on how much paint you can actually bring into the field, or a tank size requirement.

It would also need to come with a higher price of admission and higher rental fee to at least partially subsidize the cost of paint.

I understand paintball is an expensive sport and im 100 percent supportive of profiting on every aspect of it if you can. However after a certain point customers dont want to spend anymore
As it is field charge admission, lets say admission partially covers the lease or cost of the land. On top of that they usually charge more for air, if its not a specific air charge, its a combined field and air fee, usually same or more than those who charge seperately.
THEN, those who wish to rent pay up to 40 in equipment rentals, which i bet pays for the rented equipment after the 4th or 5th time rented what with buying in bulk and wholesale.
Then paint is bought at wholesale im sure so thats a source of profit

So after a while almost everything has paid for itself and youre raking in profit by the bucketful

Again im all for a business succeeding profiting and becoming fat and rich, and i understand im not factoring in replacing equipment, utilities employees permits insurance etc.

However with as many people as come out with prices as high as they are (rent a marker for a third of what you can buy it for) imagine how many more would come out if the prices were lower! Imagine if paint was provided at below (or at) retail but still at a profit to the field. It would take more customers to recoup your costs but youd draw so many more in and keep so many more coming back that youd get there faster. The perfect definition of less is more.
The question made perfect sense if you paid attention to the fact that he established it as a hypothetical situation. The point was to see if people would shoot more paint if the cost of paint was eliminated or if people shoot what they need regardless of price.

Now as for your statement highlighted in red, if such was true then I need explanation of why the BYOP fields in my region generally see LESS business than the FPO fields.
Lowering paint prices would be the worst thing most fields could do. Paint is their profit. If paint prices drop then admission and rental fees must be drastically increased to off-set.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:58 AM #65
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Because most byop fields charge a byop fee that when combined with the cost of paint even outside the field outweghs buying paint at the field itself.

It could also have zero to do with the ability to bring your own paint and could just be a crappy field or bad customer service

The question was hypothetical as were the answers. The answers were then used to preach to us why free paint is unrealistic. The hypthetical situations were unrealistic...
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:14 AM #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offthahorse View Post
The hypthetical situations were unrealistic...
No more unrealistic than all of the "paint should be almost free" rants that go on and on (and go mostly unquestioned) by people who have no *actual* idea about what that would do to the sport they'd no longer be able to play.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:22 AM #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offthahorse View Post
I think these questions are flawed and unrealistic, therefore the conclusions you have come to and tried to "get us to understand" are also flawed.

No field owner in his right mind is going to combine unlimited paint with unlimited ROF and large teams, simply due to it being a recipe for chaos.

I could see unlimited paint with either capped rof, no full auto, or limit on how much paint you can actually bring into the field, or a tank size requirement.

It would also need to come with a higher price of admission and higher rental fee to at least partially subsidize the cost of paint.

I understand paintball is an expensive sport and im 100 percent supportive of profiting on every aspect of it if you can. However after a certain point customers dont want to spend anymore
As it is field charge admission, lets say admission partially covers the lease or cost of the land. On top of that they usually charge more for air, if its not a specific air charge, its a combined field and air fee, usually same or more than those who charge seperately.
THEN, those who wish to rent pay up to 40 in equipment rentals, which i bet pays for the rented equipment after the 4th or 5th time rented what with buying in bulk and wholesale.
Then paint is bought at wholesale im sure so thats a source of profit

So after a while almost everything has paid for itself and youre raking in profit by the bucketful

Again im all for a business succeeding profiting and becoming fat and rich, and i understand im not factoring in replacing equipment, utilities employees permits insurance etc.
Yes, it's an unrealistic situation that will never happen, but I don't know if it's that hard to visualize. If I asked a child what he/she would do if all the candy in a candy store were free (also an unrealistic situation), most would probably be able to predict what they would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by offthahorse View Post
However with as many people as come out with prices as high as they are (rent a marker for a third of what you can buy it for) imagine how many more would come out if the prices were lower! Imagine if paint was provided at below (or at) retail but still at a profit to the field. It would take more customers to recoup your costs but youd draw so many more in and keep so many more coming back that youd get there faster. The perfect definition of less is more.
Off topic, but... there a minimum prices that obviously need to be charged to get to a break even point, and then after that there would be profit. But it's not even that simple. The break even point changes with the number of players and the amount of gross profit needed from the average player changes as the total number of player changes (which is the point you are trying to make). It's certainly not as simple as lowering prices to attract more people will in the end result in similar amounts of profit.

If a field (I'm just pulling these numbers out of thin air) attracts 5,000 people per year and charges the average person $50 and there are $40 of expenses associated with serving those customers, that field will have a profit of $50,000 [5,000 x ($50-$40)]. If that field lowers it's prices to $40 and lowering that price attracts 50% more customers for a total of 7,500 customers/year and the associated cost per player drops to $35 (savings due to increase in volume and efficiency and fixed expenses staying the same - i.e rent), then the profit is now $37,500 [7,500 x ($40-$35), so $15,000 less. To get back up to the same profit, that field would have to double their numbers from 5,000 to 10,000, which isn't going to happen with a 20% drop in price. Even a 50% increase in attendance is unlikely with a 20% drop in price. Dropping the price further to attract more players would make the matter worse (from a business standpoint). It's never as simple as dropping prices will attract more people, so a business will make more (or the same) profit if they do so.

Last edited by Horizon : 12-03-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:24 AM #68
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Considering how cheap a lot of gear is getting these days. The price of paint is the only thing left to actually regulate players.

You can easily buy an AMAZING setup today that will enable you to shoot HUGE amounts of paint for well less than $1000...

The cost of getting into the sport is continually getting smaller as more product is introduced. This means More people ARE able to get into the sport if they WANTED to...

When a new player goes to a field they have already expressed interest in the game. Its what happens AT the field that will determine if they wish to continue with the interest or not. If they show up and have a great time. Chances are they will come back. But if they show up and get beat up or have a horrible time because they hid behind a bunker all day due to a wall of paint being flung at them...then why would they bother coming back at all...no matter how cheap it is...

I know that if paint were to be come dirt cheap...(which it already has compared to even 10 years ago) then I would probably stop playing. Or at the very best I would be organizing highly controlled outlaw play.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:49 AM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar View Post
I know that if paint were to be come dirt cheap...(which it already has compared to even 10 years ago) then I would probably stop playing. Or at the very best I would be organizing highly controlled outlaw play.
The funny thing is that outlaw play seems to have increased over they years as paintball prices have dropped. There are more and more people choosing to play privately with their like minded friends because they don't like the kind of play found at their local field. Even though it's gotten "cheaper" (in theory), they are opting to stay away. That's something very few people predicted would happen 20 or 25 years ago. It was always thought that paintball prices were like every other commodity. Lower the price of paintballs (which in theory lowers the overall cost to take part) and more people show up. People didn't realize I guess that the main reason people go to a paintball field isn't to shoot paintballs, it's to have fun.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:10 PM #70
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I didnt say free or almost free btw, just for the record. And i do thoroughly agree that noone wants wall of paint flying at them.

All im saying is that including paint in the price of admission (which would be alot more than 20 if air and rental were included) would not necessarily cause that if regulations were put in place.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:45 PM #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offthahorse
I didnt say free or almost free btw, just for the record. And i do thoroughly agree that noone wants wall of paint flying at them.

All im saying is that including paint in the price of admission (which would be alot more than 20 if air and rental were included) would not necessarily cause that if regulations were put in place.
You've spoken about unrealistic ideas yet you propose some. Regulations on ROF, tank size and/or how much paint you can bring or purchase??? That's unrealistic and a true receipt for bankruptcy.
How many regular players do you really think will come to your field if you are saying "Your tank can't be larger than (for arguments sake) 56ci" or "You're only permitted to purchase/bring 1000 rounds a day"? And what are you proposing the ROF to be? 15? 12? Under 12? 12-15 is easily capable in semi by the majority of gear owners without trying. You would require them to cap it lower than that?
How are any of these things realistic to keeping a successful business?
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:40 PM #72
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we're not talking about purchasing or bringing x amount of rounds per day. we're talkin about unlimited paint right?
i also didnt mean to put in place all of those restrictions at once, they were all just options

most places have you check-in and chrono before entering a game correct? why not add a step where not only is your velocity checked, but also your rate of fire. if youre dealing with unlimited paint 12bps from everyone on the field is going to be crazy!

by limiting the amount of paint that can be carried into each GAME, the incentive to shoot at 1million bps is reduced. Who wants to run out of paint in the middle of a game? Yes they were promised unlimited paint, but thats for the day. if they play 100 games in a day they never have to buy more paint, but that doesnt mean they can shoot 1million rounds per game either.

tank sizes were another option, keep the full auto, keep unlimited paint per game, but tank size would ultimately determine how the paint is used. want to make it rain? sorry youll only be able to do it for a while before you run out of air.

its only inconvenient while everyone gets used to it. and if the free paint draw is that strong, people will realize it comes with restrictions
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:08 PM #73
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Probably around 1200-1800 rounds. Unless I am in some DEEP ****.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:58 PM #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offthahorse
we're not talking about purchasing or bringing x amount of rounds per day. we're talkin about unlimited paint right?
i also didnt mean to put in place all of those restrictions at once, they were all just options

most places have you check-in and chrono before entering a game correct? why not add a step where not only is your velocity checked, but also your rate of fire. if youre dealing with unlimited paint 12bps from everyone on the field is going to be crazy!

by limiting the amount of paint that can be carried into each GAME, the incentive to shoot at 1million bps is reduced. Who wants to run out of paint in the middle of a game? Yes they were promised unlimited paint, but thats for the day. if they play 100 games in a day they never have to buy more paint, but that doesnt mean they can shoot 1million rounds per game either.

tank sizes were another option, keep the full auto, keep unlimited paint per game, but tank size would ultimately determine how the paint is used. want to make it rain? sorry youll only be able to do it for a while before you run out of air.

its only inconvenient while everyone gets used to it. and if the free paint draw is that strong, people will realize it comes with restrictions
I understand that you didn't mean all at once. I'm saying that attempt to try any of those is asking for you business to fail.

You aren't restricting players to shooting under 12bps.
You aren't restricting players to only being allowed to use small tanks.
You aren't restricting players to how much paint they can carry in a game.

Try any of these and your business will implode. Players aren't going to come to any field where the ability to play the way they enjoy is prohibited.

Horizon has a field. A case of paint is super expensive. The pricing results in a low volume of paint being shot. However players aren't restricted to how much they can buy, carry or shoot in semi.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:10 PM #75
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i would probably shoot the same amount of paint only because when i'm on the field i pick and choose my shots unless I'm bunkered down by experienced players. that being said if renters had unlimited paint with their tippmans i would probably shoot about the same amount due to them usually being players that get scared of the guys with e-guns and nice gear. Renters in my area are usually kids out on a birthday from ages 12-16 and when they get shot at they curl up behind a bunker and shoot almost nothing the whole day.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:50 PM #76
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Someone I know just received a groupon ticket for a group of 20 with unlimited paint with each person paying $20 for 3 hours. I tried to get the day off and gave a four week notice in writing to the head boss. I started working out harder, focusing on speed, but I guess my job said, "**** you______! Your personal life doesn't matter to us." Just like every job I've been to in my entire life. One particular job I gave them a 4 month notice and reminded every manager. Sure enough when I see my schedule, I don't have my vacation. I said, "Either I quit, or I will come back and have work. I scheduled this and I don't care if I have a job when I come back. I am doing this." When I came back I still had my job.

So I won't know what is going to happen with this type of scenario. I just outfitted my bro with my gear, I'll hear what he says about it tomorrow. I was going to use my autococker semi maybe 6-7bps max [if that] on the newbies that were coming with our group. With newbies all it takes is 1-2 shots and they are gone. I have seen someone who was fully athletic, ramp to the max his marker could take him, and run through all the players that played their first time, his team outnumbering the other team. It was kind of hilarious how he celebrated in the end like it was a big accomplishment. I challenged him to a game 1vs1 and won a few, but lost more than I won because my rental blackheart shutdown on me from a low battery. I turned it back on, fired one shot into his face and won a game. Then it wouldn't turn on again the next game.

I had the chance to meet females I didn't know, who wanted to play paintball on this day. I might of met a girl I could date who wasn't obsessed with soap opera's and shopping malls, so it's like my job just cut off my balls. The guy that was running the event said it was strange that I couldn't make it, because I was the most excited about going.

Last edited by Subterfuge : 12-07-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:12 PM #77
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Ha, the unlimited ammo happened to be 500 rounds. I guess 500 rounds is unlimited ammo for a newbie. They also were shooting tippman carbines. My bro couldn't figure out how to pull a full stroke on the trigger the first few games from being used to electronic markers most of his life; however, he lost only one game. He tried to equalize himself with the rest of the newbies by only using a hopper and the marker they were using. He faced the same problems I did playing rec; moving super far up, with the newbies all cowering in the back leaving him out to dry. He didn't do too bad, but if I went, I know I could of done better. He has the techniques he just doesn't have the experience that I do. For instance, what to do when someone blindfires, and doesn't call himself out when you shoot his marker. Someone tried to play on past his buddy's hit, but my bro managed to surrender him with no rounds left in his hopper; lot's of ridiculous stuff like that. So it wasn't the experiment that I thought it was and this whole essay is null and doesn't relate to the discussion.

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Old 12-09-2012, 09:29 PM #78
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Bottom line is this will most likely never happen because of the opportunity to make money. The opportunity for the paint suppliers to make money and the opportunity for the field to make money. It's what drives the world and that will not ever change
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:34 PM #79
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probily like 2 or 3 cases
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:38 PM #80
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til someone whos rich comes along and builds a field and lets people play free on it
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:53 AM #81
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I would take this out. Probably go through a pallet or so.

Id clear the shop out of paint with that thing.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:51 AM #82
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At my first skirmish dday, a few years ago. I shot 3 cases the whole weekend (I was using a pump) and I don't remember a time I wasn't shooting at people.

This past year I only shot 3 bags with a g6r and had just as much fun, and saved myself a lot of money.

Moral: You can have just as much fun shooting 1 bag as you can shooting 5 cases.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:12 PM #83
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2 cases. I'd be ready for lunch and good meal. That is what I usually do in big games. Play til 2 and meet up with family. We carry up to 1000 balls; 6 pods -1 hopper. Some bring an extra tank. Then reload and refill.
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:40 AM #84
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I tend to shoot about one case max. Probably wouldn't change a whole lot, honestly.
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