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Old 02-03-2013, 08:38 AM #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godraep View Post
How can you even tout these claims with so much vaporware in paintball? I cannot count the number of manufacturers that have failed on start up or never even got passed the design stage. This company has proved nothing and you're already claiming its the best thing since the wheel.

I'm glad you all have a boner for something you've never seen, but this marker will have to prove itself on the field first before I drop a dime on it. I've owned Vapors and Demons, so I'm familiar with lemons. I put my trust in established companies, I've lost too much cash buying the next big thing to make claims like 99bps
People are excited about the idea. Not the marker itself because obviously its not released yet. That's the nature of paintball, or anything regarding sales for that matter. Something new is released, people get excited and create a buzz, others feed off of that buzz. That's honestly their right. **** I lost a ton of money on the vapor as well but that won't stop me from getting excited about a new marker especially with a new platform.
If you're not willing to give it a shot... That's cool, good for you for standing your ground. But don't jump on others.
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:08 AM #191
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I have to say, we are really happy about all the excitement and buzz that is popping up. But godraep's point is the one I want to stress the most.

We originally were going to keep the Facebook page hopping with a few people we knew, dropping the gun CAD here in a bit, and the videos of the gun tear down, gun shooting, and a walk through the history of the prototypes. Then we were going to do the full release just before PBE, with all of that up, including pricing. We had no intentions of pulling off a 'Vapor' type launch with CAD files and then wait a year. We did want to work with our group of friends to gauge their excitement and then pop up like a new shiny dollar coin, all of this answered.

Alas, we get to do the whole thing with, well... everybody. So our lack of answers is because we are still going along with our schedule as planned, and also because we have a huge audience to cater to. Instead of just a few on FB, we are following 4 forums and FB, and instead of a few dozen people a few hundred.

So, please be patient - it will come to light. Maybe not exactly as planned, but who really gets that option anyway? This is exciting, fun, challenging, and complicated. Lucky for us the gun is simple, solid and worth it.

See everything at PBE!
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:13 AM #192
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Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
I have to say, we are really happy about all the excitement and buzz that is popping up. But godraep's point is the one I want to stress the most.

We originally were going to keep the Facebook page hopping with a few people we knew, dropping the gun CAD here in a bit, and the videos of the gun tear down, gun shooting, and a walk through the history of the prototypes. Then we were going to do the full release just before PBE, with all of that up, including pricing. We had no intentions of pulling off a 'Vapor' type launch with CAD files and then wait a year. We did want to work with our group of friends to gauge their excitement and then pop up like a new shiny dollar coin, all of this answered.

Alas, we get to do the whole thing with, well... everybody. So our lack of answers is because we are still going along with our schedule as planned, and also because we have a huge audience to cater to. Instead of just a few on FB, we are following 4 forums and FB, and instead of a few dozen people a few hundred.

So, please be patient - it will come to light. Maybe not exactly as planned, but who really gets that option anyway? This is exciting, fun, challenging, and complicated. Lucky for us the gun is simple, solid and worth it.

See everything at PBE!
Great reply!
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:26 AM #193
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this company and product reminds me of how planet eclipse started,run by ballers for ballers and we all know how that turned out.good luck with this J4
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:32 AM #194
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Were I releasing a marker, I think I'd wait to announce anything until I had product in-hand. Just sayin'.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:00 AM #195
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post

Scale and company size are important. Under 1000 units the US is entirely unfeasible, and even china gets too expensive to build, sell, support and turn a reasonable profit on a marker for $400. And if you've got no existing business structure or other products, even more so.
You wouldn't believe how much dye was making NT's manufacturing them for dirt Cheap
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:12 AM #196
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Originally Posted by 96 Ls lnteg View Post
You wouldn't believe how much dye was making NT's manufacturing them for dirt Cheap
I probably would. But J4 is not the size of Dye.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:14 AM #197
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Originally Posted by 96 Ls lnteg View Post

You wouldn't believe how much dye was making NT's manufacturing them for dirt Cheap
And you wouldn't believe the quality
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:21 AM #198
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You wouldn't believe how much dye was making NT's manufacturing them for dirt Cheap
That's probably why the quality wasn't great and they didn't last. Just an assumption.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:31 AM #199
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Were I releasing a marker, I think I'd wait to announce anything until I had product in-hand. Just sayin'.
lol Eigenbolt.


Hopefully they'll release more info...tomorrow.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:52 AM #200
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I think if you consider that Most manufactures of anything automatically charge at the very least a 100% markup, having a relatively low msrp for a substantial product would not be very hard at all if the company reduces their profit margin, now, would it be a great business plan? probably not unless you know your going to sell more with a lower price, and only with a lower price. if your a high end gun company, your going to set your prices competitively, Ie. not absurd, but were going to make money. no company is going to mass produce, and sell a market with a 1% profit because it "will change the game".
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:22 PM #201
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:31 PM #202
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Originally Posted by CrYoBuRn View Post
lol Eigenbolt.


Hopefully they'll release more info...tomorrow.
Oh I see what you did there
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:40 PM #203
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Were I releasing a marker, I think I'd wait to announce anything until I had product in-hand. Just sayin'.
So, you know we don't have a product in hand? News to us. As we stated:

Quote:
We originally were going to keep the Facebook page hopping with a few people we knew, dropping the gun CAD here in a bit, and the videos of the gun tear down, gun shooting, and a walk through the history of the prototypes. Then we were going to do the full release just before PBE, with all of that up, including pricing. We had no intentions of pulling off a 'Vapor' type launch with CAD files and then wait a year. We did want to work with our group of friends to gauge their excitement and then pop up like a new shiny dollar coin, all of this answered.
We are going to show this off exactly as we feel we like it.

Hence, while we know the MSRP will be within a $50 range, we keep telling people it is, we promise, less then $2000 a gun. Because we are not going to show the gun, name the price, have videos of it shoot till right before PBE, just like we planned.

Companies plan these things. Same as we are not taking pre-orders, or selling anything till after PBE. There is a schedule for all of this, we are not going to start making this one big hot mess just because our teaser pics made it out. They don't release the final Corvette early just because somebody figured out what it looked like. They planned on the Detroit show, and they showed it there.

Shoot, we already have the tickets, the rental car, the booth and drinks lined up. PBE is gonna be a blast. A few things are not on schedule, but most of that is paperwork we are juggling while we answer all of your questions and emails, and normal, really.


On the pricing:

The interesting thing is to make a paintball gun cheap it takes a lot of money up front. Hence, why most guns out that are small run are....expensive. Even if you own a machine shop (and we don't.) Especially if you want to make it well. That is a simple fact you learn working on a paintball gun design for several years.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:42 PM #204
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I just can't wait to get my hands on it and play with it
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:04 PM #205
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On the pre-FAQ we mentioned this a bit. The long and short of it is the system on the mechanical side just needs enough dwell. Over running the dwell doesn't result in any more velocity or air loss. Basically at 6ms of dwell you get bolt movement, at 7ms a near full shot, at 8ms you get a full shot, and 9ms-255ms you have exactly the same air usage and velocity. But sometimes 8ms is finicky, and sometimes it is cold out, or you gooped paint bad. The HE sensor is in there just to let you get through. Unlike almost every other gun, dwell/velocity don't really have a correlation, and dialing in the shot by the ms doesn't make as much sense. Dialing in the dwell to make sure it shoots is an advantage, but with this we just have the added HE bit to make sure every shot is exactly the same. No matter the conditions. So, no FSDO, No hot fps as the dwell is raised to compensate for FSDO, no cold weather problems, no oil based broken field paint slowing it down. I have had the bolt nearly seize in the test guns and still get a near full velocity shot. The HE just makes sure it keeps truckin, no matter what. If the HE fails it reverts to 12ms or so, and it will rock almost any condition.

I don't know of any electric gun that can do that.
By this logic, what would be the point of even having the HE sensor? Why not just over set the dwell if all it is affecting is the marker firing/not firing?

I do love the innovation in this. It's great to finally see something fresh in marker design. I personally am a fan of how spoolies shoot, but dont really care for the upkeep and how finnicky they can be with weather. I really hope your marker lives up to your claims.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:30 PM #206
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By this logic, what would be the point of even having the HE sensor? Why not just over set the dwell if all it is affecting is the marker firing/not firing?
The dwell works kind of like this:

Bolt moves (HE sensor tracks), add Xms to dwell. Track bolt forward. If bolt forward doesn't activate, add dwell.

In the case of 'Delicate', it doesn't do that, but retains the low dwell, so it will stop on a ball.

Normal adds dwell till it gets forward each time, till a max point.

Soldier On just adds dwell till the gun fires, or 255ms has been reached.

There is other issues in addition to that, but typing out the programming logic is not something I am going to do now. In the end if there is no HE sensor, you need to put in the adjustment for dwell. If you don't have an adjustment for it, then it won't always go. And if you have an adjustment for it, somebody is going to screw it up. It won't always be perfect. It won't always fire.

With the HE sensor, the gun just works, every time. You don't have to fiddle with it, test it, time it, and maybe have something screw up. In addition you don't have it set to always be on for 30ms just in case you get a sticky paintball, cold weather, or o-rings are a bit low on lube.

Being able to pick up your gun and go play and not have to worry about it going down is the benefit. No hot shots. No FSDO. No putting it away some days of the week. Turns out it is nasty and cold at a tournament or scenario game, or the only weekend you have been able to get out in 2 months?

This gun will work. You don't have to think about dwell. Go play. Take a few seconds, lube up the piston before the day starts, air it up and go enjoy a great day of paintball. And with the time you save, help your buddy dial in his gun, reset the LPR, make sure the dwell is good. He might like the hand...

That's why. That is what we want our gun to be. The one you don't worry about.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:35 PM #207
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I remember the older pvi shocker had automatic timing, was quite a neat concept, if this works and it's quality on par with what bob long and eclipse arr putting out you have a fan.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:44 PM #208
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lol Eigenbolt.

Hopefully they'll release more info...tomorrow.
Hahaha, ain't that the truth.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:46 PM #209
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"It will just work "

Is exactly what players need to expect when dropping a grand on a marker. I'm sure your sponsored teams will love you guys. Nothing is worse than getting to a tournament and your super gun is wonky over the chrono.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:49 PM #210
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"It will just work "

Is exactly what players need to expect when dropping a grand on a marker. I'm sure your sponsored teams will love you guys. Nothing is worse than getting to a tournament and your super gun is wonky over the chrono.
*Cough* Vapors and Demons *Cough* lol I'm surprised how bad people want money that they will actually sell markers that are as bad as the Vapor or Demon.... I mean it's pathetic.
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