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Old 02-03-2013, 12:53 PM #1786
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So hammer deaths are ok, simply because there are so many of them?
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:53 PM #1787
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I understand that assault weapons are not responsible for most firearms deaths. But we do have strict rules on alcohol consumption, and when we give police departments money and leadership to enforce DWI related incidents, alcohol related deaths decrease.
By analogy, the law does not regulate the ownership or use (or even some instances of misuse) of alcohol so the law should not regulate the ownership or use of firearms. The law does regulate alcohol use by providing for enhanced punishment for certain circumstances of misuse of alcohol (public drunk, drunk driving, manslaughter while driving drunk, etc.), so the law should regulate firearms by enhanced punishment for misuse of firearms in a similar fashion.

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On a side note, when self driving cars become available - shortly - they will replace human drivers for exactly that reason (and a few more).
I sincerely hope this does not come about in my lifetime or at least that it is only optional. I don't need a car driving itself for me, and I doubt people realize the traffic issues that will result from this.

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Here's a proposal: A gun license requires firearms training to obtain.
I might be in favor of this. How would you feel if the information was not entered into a government database?
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:58 PM #1788
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Originally Posted by Bloodeagle View Post
By analogy, the law does not regulate the ownership or use (or even some instances of misuse) of alcohol so the law should not regulate the ownership or use of firearms. The law does regulate alcohol use by providing for enhanced punishment for certain circumstances of misuse of alcohol (public drunk, drunk driving, manslaughter while driving drunk, etc.), so the law should regulate firearms by enhanced punishment for misuse of firearms in a similar fashion.
Unfortunately, increasing punishment for crimes like these does not seem to have a deterring effect. And it's expensive both in human and financial costs.

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I sincerely hope this does not come about in my lifetime or at least that it is only optional. I don't need a car driving itself for me, and I doubt people realize the traffic issues that will result from this.
Most traffic problems are a result of human drivers, but that's besides the point of this thread. Google is already testing them in CA and NV I think it was?

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I might be in favor of this. How would you feel if the information was not entered into a government database?
I'm fine with that.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:02 PM #1789
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So you first say we restrict human behavior, then when I suggest modifying human behavior you go all red herring on me. Ridiculous.
You misunderstood his point.

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-increasing federal aid to poverty stricken areas
Just throwing money at the problem is not a good answer. State the problem to be solved, how the money would be spent solve that problem, and show how the problem would be solved by the expenditure, and you might have more support than you think.


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-increasing federal funding to after school programs
Ditto.

Why not just require the purchase of a gun lock as part of the purchase of a firearm? There is no reason the government should pay for that.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:02 PM #1790
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So calm the **** down, Nancy. Liberals don't have an inner compulsion to take away anybody else's guns, blenders, or Cheerios just for the hell of it. If you think our stance is misguided or ill informed, then I would think you would welcome a push for more conclusive research on the matter.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:06 PM #1791
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No one thinks leftists like Feinstein want to take away all guns (except those that her people have) just for the fun of it. There is a point to her desire, just not necessarily her stated reason.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:07 PM #1792
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Why not just require the purchase of a gun lock as part of the purchase of a firearm? There is no reason the government should pay for that.
I proposed this before and was ridiculed as it being a violation of second amendment rights.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:09 PM #1793
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Why should it matter if guns kill more than hammers?
I am simply objecting to the nonsense (like the post below).

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So hammer deaths are ok, simply because there are so many of them?
The proportion of hammer deaths to hammers is much smaller than the proportion of gun deaths to guns. Your point is stupid.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:14 PM #1794
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I proposed this before and was ridiculed as it being a violation of second amendment rights.
Not by me. In case you missed it, I was also okay with MarcoZ's suggestion that gun owners buy insurance to cover damages caused by misuse of their firearms such as negligent entrustment. I suggested that be a rider on homeowners'/renters' insurance. I also didn't balk at your suggestion of requiring a firearms training course as a prerequisite of a firearms license so long as that did not wind up in a government database. The problem that we gun rights supporters see is that when those measures fail, their existence will be used as support for the ability of the government to further regulate gun ownership and use. In other words, there is virtually zero trust that these measures are where the true desires of the far left end.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:14 PM #1795
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I am simply objecting to the nonsense (like the post below).



The proportion of hammer deaths to hammers is much smaller than the proportion of gun deaths to guns. Your point is stupid.
So we should just ignore the fact that they kill more people...
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:15 PM #1796
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Applying for permission from the government would be.

The Constitution does not exist to restrict people. It exists to restrict the government.
I was being facetious.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:16 PM #1797
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The proportion of hammer deaths to hammers is much smaller than the proportion of gun deaths to guns.
It is all how you define comparison. Make the comparison of rifles to hammers and see how it comes out.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:16 PM #1798
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I am simply objecting to the nonsense (like the post below).



The proportion of hammer deaths to hammers is much smaller than the proportion of gun deaths to guns. Your point is stupid.
I'm not sure what the tool/death ratio has to do with any of this, the person using it committed murder either way.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:24 PM #1799
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So you first say we restrict human behavior, then when I suggest modifying human behavior you go all red herring on me. Ridiculous.

How about:

-increasing federal aid to poverty stricken areas
-increasing federal funding to after school programs
-ending the war on drugs
-providing free gun locks with the purchase of a firearm
Acquiring a license and training does not restrict behavior. It simply requires you to ask permission from the government for something that you have a right to do in the first place. So, again, you can require a license and training for firearms ownership when you require the same for every other right. And you can start with a license that confirms US citizenship for the voters.

We already pour enough money in to your first two. How about changing Federal aid so that it is spent on job training, education, and other things that will actually help people get out of poverty, instead of keeping them dependent on government handouts?

Down with ending the war on drugs. With it can come massive increase in border security.

Every new gun I've bought came with a lock. I fail to see how this would help. Locks are for honest people. They keep them honest.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:30 PM #1800
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Originally Posted by Bloodeagle View Post
Not by me. In case you missed it, I was also okay with MarcoZ's suggestion that gun owners buy insurance to cover damages caused by misuse of their firearms such as negligent entrustment. I suggested that be a rider on homeowners'/renters' insurance. I also didn't balk at your suggestion of requiring a firearms training course as a prerequisite of a firearms license so long as that did not wind up in a government database. The problem that we gun rights supporters see is that when those measures fail, their existence will be used as support for the ability of the government to further regulate gun ownership and use. In other words, there is virtually zero trust that these measures are where the true desires of the far left end.
I like all of those.

The point of the after school programs etc. was to attempt to prevent/reduce gang crime and crimes of desperation, which they have been shown to do. In spite of hiring laws, I heard on NPR recently that someone with a felony on their record has about 30% the chance of getting an unskilled labor job than someone who doesn't. This seems like it would only fuel things like armed robbery. If someone has done their time, why should they keep paying for their crime?

Also, a lot of gun crime seems to be driven by the war on drugs, which you didn't speak to. Why not end it?

On a side note, I'm genuinely curious - why do people who tend to align with the right seem to trust corporate and private desires more than the desires of government figures? In this day and age are corporations any less capable of tyranny?

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I'm not sure what the tool/death ratio has to do with any of this, the person using it committed murder either way.
It's a measure of the danger and typical use of an object.

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Acquiring a license and training does not restrict behavior. It simply requires you to ask permission from the government for something that you have a right to do in the first place. So, again, you can require a license and training for firearms ownership when you require the same for every other right.
What if they were administered by accredited, private companies?

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We already pour enough money in to your first two. How about changing Federal aid so that it is spent on job training, education, and other things that will actually help people get out of poverty, instead of keeping them dependent on government handouts?
Well when I said "federal aid", I was meaning to include job training, education (after school programs) etc, because they are actually federal aid.

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And you can start with a license that confirms US citizenship for the voters.
This is a dumb argument by Republicans for the purpose of playing on the paranoia they put in your head so you vote them back into office.

http://www.kpho.com/story/19990620/w...-to-vote-twice

She was a Republican trying to prove it was easy to do.
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Last edited by Umami : 02-03-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:31 PM #1801
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It's a measure of the danger and typical use of an object.
Overall deaths is also a measure of danger of an object...
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:38 PM #1802
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You cannot be that dense. I refuse to believe it.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:40 PM #1803
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What if they were administered by accredited, private companies?



Well when I said "federal aid", I was meaning to include job training, education (after school programs) etc, because they are actually federal aid.



This is a dumb argument by Republicans for the purpose of playing on the paranoia they put there so you vote them back into office.

http://www.kpho.com/story/19990620/w...-to-vote-twice
From now on, whenever you have an argument for licensing firearms, I want you to replace "firearms" with "voting rights." Do you really want a private company to have a say over what the Constitution says you already have the right to?

We dump tons of money in to welfare programs. Yet we still have issues. The problem isn't the money, the problem is the people. If you want to help people, you have to create a system that makes getting off of welfare a positive thing. No more generational welfare. No more paying for kids that were born on welfare. No more money going in to people's pockets for doing nothing.

I know it's a dumb argument. You're using the same one for firearms ownership. There is no difference. Licenses are written permission from the government to do something. WE DO NOT NEED THE GOVERNMENT'S PERMISSION TO EXERCISE OUR RIGHTS.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:42 PM #1804
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I proposed this before and was ridiculed as it being a violation of second amendment rights.

Every gun I have bought the past 2-3 years has came with some sort of lock with it. From pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc...
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:47 PM #1805
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On a side note, when self driving cars become available - shortly - they will replace human drivers for exactly that reason (and a few more).
Automated vehicles will not replace human drivers in the automobile for at least 20 years (realistically more like 50 years due to planning and programming). The infrastructure, funding, legal issues and education on the use of automated vehicles are not there to provide for such a dramatic change. This is just a downright bad analogy.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:48 PM #1806
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Every gun I have bought the past 2-3 years has came with some sort of lock with it. From pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc...
Only ones I bought that haven't were used. Fail to see what a "trigger lock" is going to do.
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