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Old 01-21-2013, 05:46 PM #1303
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post
I haven't seen a good explanation of how regulation that maintains an individuals right to bear arms infringes on the second amendment.



Alright, the context is muskets. Shall we start there?

edit: I want to be clear that I have no desire to prevent responsible citizens from gun ownership. I don't even care what kinds of guns you own, I like going to a range as much as the next guy.

Here's what I want. I would like to see regulations for safety equipment you are required to purchase/must be provided with the purchase of a firearm; mandated training before you can purchase a firearm; and the judicial pursuit of people who sell guns irresponsibly (I'm leaving this undefined to avoid getting caught up on details at the moment). It makes zero sense to me that you have to go through a full class and 6 months of training to drive a car, but can buy a gun knowing absolutely nothing about how to handle it.

Can anyone explain to me why any of this is unreasonable without vomiting the 2nd amendment?

can we beat this horse to death anymore? There's over 60 pages here you come in late and haven't read 1 thing posted.

Do you know why it makes zero sense to you? Because you don't understand the difference between a state's right and the rights of the federal government. The STATE you live in makes you take a test, get insurance, register, and get a license...the federal government doesn't make you do ANY of this. Making people take a test and pay some sort of tax on a GOD GIVEN RIGHT it equal to the poll taxes from way back in the day.

And about muskets. I take it you said this because you think the forefathers couldn't envision sporting rifles. Well the forefathers couldn't envision the internet either which spreads more false and damaging information faster than anything on the planet.

You need to be very careful letting the government pick and choose how you can use your rights.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:51 PM #1304
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The founding fathers weren't stupid. They realized that technologies and social movements would move forward, which is why they made a point of making the constitution so simple.
If the argument is made that we have developed technologies that absolutely require extraconsitutional regulation (i.e. modern firearms), then the correct way to change our laws would be to amend the constitution.

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Old 01-21-2013, 06:00 PM #1305
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The founding fathers weren't stupid. They realized that technologies and social movements would move forward, which is why they made a point of making the constitution so simple.
If the argument is made that we have developed technologies that absolutely require extraconsitutional regulation (i.e. modern firearms), then the correct way to change our laws would be to amend the constitution.
i agree 100%. The problem is instead of going about it this way we've been taking the easier and messier road of just passing more and more laws that don't work and get overruled depending on which party controls the supreme court
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:10 PM #1306
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If these gun regulations are so popular, as the president claims, why haven't we seen a joint resolution from the two houses or calls for a constitutional convention from the state legislatures to demand the repealing of the second amendment?
Why aren't their constituents marching in the streets en masse to demand this?

Whether you agree with the president on gun control or not, the concept that certain parts of the constitution can simply be considered no longer relevant and ignored without following the correct process has some pretty scary implications.
Also, the laws of the United States do not include the President in any part of the constitutional amendment process.

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Old 01-21-2013, 06:10 PM #1307
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It's all just a vicious circle that will never end ppl will never be satisfied with what is passed, ppl will always be annoyed by new laws that effect them, and ppl will always break the laws or find loop holes. So to be honest we all need to just sit and wait the ppl voted the guy in to office so now we must endure anything they throw at us.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:32 PM #1308
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What're we going with then, the tyranny argument?

And I hardly believe that muzzle loaders being the only firearms available at the time of authorship is completely irrelevant.
So what do you think the ammendment means? That people can specifically own muskets? For what purpose?
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:49 PM #1309
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Do explain how regulation is a violation of the 2nd amendment.
I'm not saying everyone needs a true Assault Rifle strapped to their back with 75 round drums, but we are approaching Barney Fife levels of limitations right now. I mean, only being able to carry 7 rounds in NY? WTF good is that going to do?

The 2nd amendment was created so that the free people could have a way to defend itself if need be. Putting limitations on what guns we can use and how many rounds we can have loaded is infringing on those rights. We have to keep up with the technology.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:30 PM #1310
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I'm not saying everyone needs a true Assault Rifle strapped to their back with 75 round drums, but we are approaching Barney Fife levels of limitations right now. I mean, only being able to carry 7 rounds in NY? WTF good is that going to do?

The 2nd amendment was created so that the free people could have a way to defend itself if need be. Putting limitations on what guns we can use and how many rounds we can have loaded is infringing on those rights. We have to keep up with the technology.
This brings up a good question. At what time does the technology become outdated enough for civilian use? The liberals say that what was a battle rifle back in the revolutionary war, civil war, ww1, and ww2 are ok for us to have but a modern type rifle is not. Does this mean in 50 years when our military moves on to something bigger and better we can have our AR-15s back?
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:22 PM #1311
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Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
This brings up a good question. At what time does the technology become outdated enough for civilian use? The liberals say that what was a battle rifle back in the revolutionary war, civil war, ww1, and ww2 are ok for us to have but a modern type rifle is not. Does this mean in 50 years when our military moves on to something bigger and better we can have our AR-15s back?
No, silly. The government never gives you something back until you demand it.

In other news MLK was a gun owner

Even the great proponent of peace believed in self defense.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:43 PM #1312
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The gun control pushes in Chicago and 1968 gun control act are generally considered to be based on fears that too many guns would be owned by blacks. For example,
This comes from a white house recording of a call between LBJ and Mayor Daley (the first one)
"DALEY: Something has to be done, Mr. President, about the sale of the guns.
Outside the suburbs in the city, we have control, but what the hell, in the suburbs, there are — you go out to all around our suburbs and you've got people out there, especially the non-white, are buying guns right and left. Shotguns and rifles and pistols and everything else. There's no registration. … There's no, and you know, they've had trouble with this national gun law, but after the president's assassination, someone ought to do something.

JOHNSON: We thought so, but you can't get the Congress to vote for it, these damn conservation leagues and everybody come—

DALEY: By God, when they see this thing that happens here, they get surprised..."
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:44 PM #1313
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In other news MLK was a gun owner

Even the great proponent of peace believed in self defense.
This proves he turned away from guns fully informed, then, not out of ignorance as is so often claimed of those who do.

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/...r-king-jr.html

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Meanwhile I reconsidered. How could I serve as one of the leaders of a nonviolent movement and at the same time use weapons of violence for my personal protection? Coretta and I talked the matter over for several days and finally agreed that arms were no solution. We decided then to get rid of the one weapon we owned. We tried to satisfy our friends by having floodlights mounted around the house, and hiring unarmed watchmen around the clock. I also promised that I would not travel around the city alone.

I was much more afraid in Montgomery when I had a gun in my house. When I decided that I couldn't keep a gun, I came face-to-face with the question of death and I dealt with it. From that point on, I no longer needed a gun nor have I been afraid. Had we become distracted by the question of my safety we would have lost the moral offensive and sunk to the level of our oppressors.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:49 PM #1314
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From that point on, I no longer needed a gun nor have I been afraid.
How did that work out for him?
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:53 PM #1315
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How did that work out for him?
Like it would have made a difference. Stop feeding him easily refuted stupid points. You do nothing to help your own side of the argument.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:55 PM #1316
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Like it would have made a difference. Stop feeding him easily refuted stupid points. You do nothing to help your own side of the argument.
Then why do you have guns if you're saying it won't make a difference if someone wants to kill you?
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:29 PM #1317
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Then why do you have guns if you're saying it won't make a difference if someone wants to kill you?
He was shot with a rifle form a distance. If someone wants to shoot me from over 100 yards away with a rifle, my carrying a handgun isn't going to change a thing.

Stop making stupid arguments.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:43 PM #1318
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He was shot with a rifle form a distance. If someone wants to shoot me from over 100 yards away with a rifle, my carrying a handgun isn't going to change a thing.

Stop making stupid arguments.
If he had a handgun with him it would have changed the course of events leading up to that day, which means he wouldn't have been standing in that exact spot, the assassin wouldn't have been there, the bullet could have missed, etc.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:38 AM #1319
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TSA look i understand you may not think that what ive been saying makes sense but it does from a stand point we are talking about FIRE ARMS NOT NUKES!
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It's the bastion of the unlogical liberal. The nuke argument is a retarded one. Anyone who has the money and expertise to make a nuclear weapon has the money to make one in secret.
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Your analogy is flawed. We have an amendment that specifically allows for individuals to possess firearms. Nukes are not firearms. Therefore the Government is free to regulate nukes as it sees fit. However, regulation/infringement of firearms is a violation of the 2nd Amendment.
It is perfect ****ing logic. I even told you what it was called. I can write it up in FOL if you like:



It's just a reductio ad absurdum. It's a very simple logical concept. Please don't talk about logic if you don't understand it.

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I'm going to beat you in the mouth if you call me that vile name again. . I may be against frivolous symbolic solutions, but a libertarian I am not. I despise cowardice, especially in those who would disarm themselves and others out of fear and personal inadequacy.
I call em as I see em.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:52 AM #1320
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If he had a handgun with him it would have changed the course of events leading up to that day, which means he wouldn't have been standing in that exact spot, the assassin wouldn't have been there, the bullet could have missed, etc.
If someone would have given MLK a bad burrito earlier in the day, maybe he spends all day crying on the toilet and changes history.

See how ****ing stupid both of these arguments are?
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:01 AM #1321
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You are conversing with the master of ****ing stupid arguments.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:05 AM #1322
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I like MLK be cause he cheated on his wife with white hookers, then beat them with his buddy (also a reverend).
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:10 AM #1323
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I like MLK be cause he cheated on his wife with white hookers, then beat them with his buddy (also a reverend).
Cheated on his doctorate too. Role model and hero.
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