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Old 01-18-2013, 02:53 PM #64
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i know if you want too know the laws in europe,and this goes for all the guys in the USA talk too,steve bull at the UKPSF,who is a member of the EPBF,if he don`t know the laws in europe nobody does,the reason i kept out of this is i remember steve mentioning something about this but couldn`t be certain,also there is a difference between ce and pi cert ,so i know your wrong aswell
so don`t come across as the clever ***
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:01 PM #65
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
So, while not a lawyer, I find this:

http://www.eceglobal.com/services/ce...ce-pi-marking/

That has information about CE and PI marking (including noting that the 99/36/EC TPED is the old rule and it's been superseded by 10/35/EU, but that's another thing).

However, under the SPVD EC guidelines is nice flowchart:
http://clients.eceglobal.com/pdf/Dir...Flow_Chart.pdf

If you look there, you see choice one is whether the pressure vessel is less than 50 bar.liters.

What's a bar.liter? It's 1000 joules.

How many joules in a 68/4500 tank?

(68 cubic inches) x (4500 psi) = 306,000 inch-pounds = 34,573 Joules

that'd be 35 (rounded up) bar.liters.

As such, if the regulator is manufactured in accordance with sound engineering practice, it needs no CE stamp.
only problem you counted wrong by a unit of 10

http://www.convertunits.com/from/L+*+bar/to/joules
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:02 PM #66
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:05 PM #67
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It says the regs may be marked not they have to be.
I see the words "shall bear..." in the legislation though...
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:24 PM #68
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The 2010 legislation (which, again, I believe supersedes the 99 rules folks looked at) says the pi mark belongs on the vessel and any "demountable parts having to do with safety". We all know the regulator is removable, but "demountable" strikes me as a word that has a specific legal meaning and I don't know if the regulator fits that bill or not. If it doesn't, it doesn't need it's own PI stamp, if it does, it looks like it does.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:45 PM #69
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Well, heaven help us if he couldn't get the info to start with instead of just looking to rant first. Now we need to see how this affects the Millennium players. BECAUSE they were the ones who allowed us to use our "illegal" regs. Hmm how is this going to affect the Euro Manufactures that do not have the CE or the PI stamp on them either. Once authorities get wind of the Brainwashing the local manufacture did to the small Mom And Pop Shop they will crack down on them. It's easy to point out one of the biggest guys in the room. What you failed to realize is how this affects the smaller manufactures as well.


BUT, I stand corrected. Next time start with providing proof or proper documentation instead of being a dick, people just might listen to what you have to say.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:15 PM #70
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Also, not to have a bash but if the regulator needed a Pi or CE symbol, then iKnow should also be attacking the following:

Guerrilla Air - no Pi or CE on the G2 or standard regs.
Empire Air Regulator - no Pi or CE on their regs.

Dye DO show the Pi symbol on their Throttle regs.

Now, would all these companies launch products without them passing their relative safety certificates? I think not. There are thousands of Ninja/Guerrilla/Empire regs being using all over Europe - many, many events. Not once has a player been pulled for it.

I trust Ninja 100%.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:25 PM #71
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Also, not to have a bash but if the regulator needed a Pi or CE symbol, then iKnow should also be attacking the following:

Guerrilla Air - no Pi or CE on the G2 or standard regs.
Empire Air Regulator - no Pi or CE on their regs.

Dye DO show the Pi symbol on their Throttle regs.

Now, would all these companies launch products without them passing their relative safety certificates? I think not. There are thousands of Ninja/Guerrilla/Empire regs being using all over Europe - many, many events. Not once has a player been pulled for it.

I trust Ninja 100%.
Trust the US seller who takes 0 responsibility? (European shops, fields who import to Europe are the ones who get "busted"...)

Trust tournament organizers? Why should they care if you use legal stuff or not? Back in the days, it was not uncommon to see DOT tanks on tournaments in Europe too...

Or wait for the "proof" from Ninja that their regs are legal in Europe?

Or trust what you read yourself in the regulations, in one case even written just for paintball tanks and valves?

Make your own choice.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:32 PM #72
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
The 2010 legislation (which, again, I believe supersedes the 99 rules folks looked at) says the pi mark belongs on the vessel and any "demountable parts having to do with safety". We all know the regulator is removable, but "demountable" strikes me as a word that has a specific legal meaning and I don't know if the regulator fits that bill or not. If it doesn't, it doesn't need it's own PI stamp, if it does, it looks like it does.
Well if the reg is not demountable it means it is permanently attached to the bottle. In which case the bottle and "reg" would get the approval together, not as parts. Now we all know that Ninja does not make the tanks themselves, so even if the valves would be considered permanently attached, they can never claim the reg got the PI from the tank manufacturers PI. Simple logic. Besides we all know the regs are demountable, even Ninja them selves states that the customer can choose if they use their "illegal" reg or some other reg, implying that although they sell the reg and bottle as a kit, if it turns out reg is illegal, they imply that the customer should know this and remove the "illegal" reg before using the bottle. (=BS)
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:23 PM #73
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Originally Posted by iKNOW View Post
Well if the reg is not demountable it means it is permanently attached to the bottle. In which case the bottle and "reg" would get the approval together, not as parts. Now we all know that Ninja does not make the tanks themselves, so even if the valves would be considered permanently attached, they can never claim the reg got the PI from the tank manufacturers PI. Simple logic. Besides we all know the regs are demountable, even Ninja them selves states that the customer can choose if they use their "illegal" reg or some other reg, implying that although they sell the reg and bottle as a kit, if it turns out reg is illegal, they imply that the customer should know this and remove the "illegal" reg before using the bottle. (=BS)
Could your name be Hellström maybe? Just guessing here, as i know of a guy who is real passionate about this.

Anyhow, as someone said before. Kee sells their 68@4.5k bottles as well as the 48@3k in Sweden (where i am from). Both of them are marked with "CE" and "PI", but does not have the proper verification number marked on them. I have spoken to Kee about this, and the fact is that they do not have the regs certified, they just loctite them to the bottles and tell the customers its all OK. The same goes for a number of brands, such as Buddah, Totem Air, Giant ect. Even Swedish Inspire did this for a while, but i never saw you say anything then?

This is also why they do not sell the reg as a separate product (Kee among others). Anyhow, this can be seen as a problem, just as the situation here with Ninja. But, if you really want to follow what it states in the law, then you need to do the following.

PI-mark and cert burst disks
PI-mark and cert bottle
PI-mark and cert reg
PI-mark and cert fillnipple

Why? Well, here is why:

"3. Valves and other accessories having a direct safety function in transportable pressure equipment, in particular safety valves, valves for filling and emptying and cylinder valves, shall be subject to a conformity assessment procedure at least a stringent as that undergone by the receptacle or tank to which they are fitted."

This means, every ****ing burst disk from each manufacturer being sold and used must undergo said certification. Same goes with fillnipples, as these can be bought separate to a regulator. Get my point? Wanna open this can of worms? Or do you think that these accessories are non detatchable, and not have a "safety function"?

Also, an interesting point is that Ninja makes superior regs to any other brand out there. All this crap manufactured in China (Kee, Buddah, Inspire and Giant among others), is it really better just because someone paid a lot of money to buy a certification?

If you follow the EU ruling regarding this, fields would have close (as they rent out illegal equipment in this case), stores would not be able to sell kits to new players and so on? Why, well do you know of a brand who has their burst-disks certified? No? Did not think so. This would hurt paintball in europe so much, as the market would need to do either one of two things.

1. Close shop
2. Put certification on everything including said burst disks and fillnipples.

You have to be somewhat practical regarding this, these regs aint unsafe. I have seen regs where the main piston was plastic from Giant air, seen regs with cracks in their body from P3. Both of them with this PI-marking. So its my genuine understanding that PI marking is nothing you earn for a good product, its something you just pay some money for.

I rest my case.

Last edited by lemuren : 01-19-2013 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:57 AM #74
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I've spoken to Ninja, various people in the industry in the UK as well as my father who is a health and safety executive. Whilst my father doesn't specialise in this particular area, he read the documents above and cannot see any issue with Ninja and their regulators. The reg has 2 burst discs to protect the user and disperse air before it gets to the stage of causing a danger, so if the regulator fails, the burst discs go and vents the air safely.
Yes, there are grey areas around the whole paintball air bottle / reg thing, but companies have done their best to protect the user. Can you imagine the outcry if something went wrong and it was down to a dodgy regulator? It isn't worth it to the company, so they probably do MORE to make the reg safe. Guerrilla used to sell a reg with ONE burst disc until it was removed from market..
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:53 AM #75
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Ah the workings of socialism and government bureaucracy... Now I remember why Im a voluntaryist.

Im sure Ninja will get it sorted out they make a fantastic product, have great service, and are genuinely concerned with their players.

iKnow, maybe next time try the diplomatic route "hey Ninja just fyi you need to get CE cert on your regs too"

It would have gone a lot farther accomplished your informative goal sooner & you wouldnt have made yourself look like a jackass. Of course if your goal was raging and ranting and tearing down a good business, then Your approach makes more sense, still asinine, but makes sense. It also raises the question of who/what you represent.

P.s. Im glad you figured the caps button out.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:20 AM #76
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This guy is known for being the biggest pain in the arse in swedish paintball since years.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:02 AM #77
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There has to be more to this "story". My take is that iKnow is either a rival euro reg company or had nothing better to do. Maybe he just mad.

What ever the reason maybe or the outcome, there is never a "good" excuse or reason for being a Douche-bag
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:20 AM #78
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It's been suggested by several people that iKNOW works for a European reg manufacturer.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:49 AM #79
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It's been suggested by several people that iKNOW works for a European reg manufacturer.
Yeah. He got the inspire brand stamped on his forehead.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:51 AM #80
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I've got an Inspire bottle
Was wondering why I had never heard of it before (not a dig, never heard of the brand before)... oh got a Ninja reg on that bottle Actually, it came already on that bottle... wonder if Inspire put it on there as I am pretty sure the shop I bought it from didn't put it on there!
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:02 AM #81
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I've got an Inspire bottle
Was wondering why I had never heard of it before (not a dig, never heard of the brand before)... oh got a Ninja reg on that bottle Actually, it came already on that bottle... wonder if Inspire put it on there as I am pretty sure the shop I bought it from didn't put it on there!
Inspire would never put a ninja reg on one of their own bottles. They are strictly selling their own regs and would not even under gun threat mount a ninja reg on inspire bottle. They prefer their own inspire reg with a chewing gum as piston

But who cares they are PI marked so?
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:55 PM #82
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Known Rob from Ninja for 15 years. He is a totally standup guy.
So many people lie and cheat in paintball, he is not one of them.

This appears to be purely a business dispute brought public.
One company is afraid of a better product appearing on the local scene and tries to discredit it through obfuscation and misdirection.

Make a better product and maybe you won't be left at the wayside.

Gold to everyone who makes a better product. Edison, Tesla, Tigerstedt, Zuse, Baird and Jobs never feared.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:40 PM #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Garrett
Known Rob from Ninja for 15 years. He is a totally standup guy.
So many people lie and cheat in paintball, he is not one of them.

This appears to be purely a business dispute brought public.
One company is afraid of a better product appearing on the local scene and tries to discredit it through obfuscation and misdirection.

Make a better product and maybe you won't be left at the wayside.

Gold to everyone who makes a better product. Edison, Tesla, Tigerstedt, Zuse, Baird and Jobs never feared.
Where is my like button?? I love ninja, and will continue Purchasing my fields tanks and teams through them!!
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:48 AM #84
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think you may find that most players in the EUROzone have never heard of inspire,but sure as hell are excited that NINJA are making bottles for us now
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