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Old 01-09-2013, 11:51 PM #106
TheSilentAssassin
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Originally Posted by Fubarius View Post
That's an easy one, you don't even have to get past Genesis. Give that a quick skim, read between the lines a bit.

Could an all powerful being control the world enough that nothing "bad" happens? Sure. But we'd be monkeys in a zoo. Safe, secure, but not free.

Now according to scripture we could have had this, just don't eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Be ignorant pets.

Yeah, that would have sucked. So we got the knowledge, we know right from wrong, but with that comes the cost... and the blessing. Choice. Believe what you want, think what you want. But others are free to do that as well. Bad thoughts. Evil thoughts. Crazy thoughts. And the sucky actions that follow.

That's the deal. We have to live with all the bad stuff we bring upon ourselves, or get back in the monkey cage, if it's allowed. And even if it was, I think I'd rather deal with the crap. With danger and strife comes evolution.
Just to be clear: The paradise in which we lived with God prior to the fall of man would have sucked? And us disobeying God and eating the apple made it better? Why would God create a world like that? Why would God make us disobey him for things to be better?

I'm sorry, but, as a Christian, I simply don't follow.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:17 AM #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Just to be clear: The paradise in which we lived with God prior to the fall of man would have sucked?
Well, YOU wouldn't have been there. I wouldn't have been there either. None of us would have. No death means no new life. Little Cain and Able didn't show up until after the Apple Incident.

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And us disobeying God and eating the apple made it better?
Not saying I got all the answers (I'm just a dude on the internet), but that could have been the plan all along. Think of parents and their children. As some point the kids got to reach the point where they can say "no, I'd rather do this". They'll often be wrong, but they learn from those mistakes. Staying in the Garden there would be no mistakes, and thus nothing ever learned.

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Why would God create a world like that? Why would God make us disobey him for things to be better?
Ooh, idea that just came to me. What if he did't makes us, we (as in humanity) were just the ones who did it first? So, hypothetically, think of the Garden as a sort of laboratory. The big guy comes up with a life form, sticks it in the lab, and puts up a big "Don't push" sign over a button and trains the life form not to push it. Probably a long string of 100% successes, but that's how you make robots, servant. How do you make something intelligent? Independent? That's the one where you tell them not to push, but they push it anyways, just to see what happens.

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I'm sorry, but, as a Christian, I simply don't follow.
Just for my own curiosity, what flavor of Christianity would you say you follow? Subtle differences in dogma and philosophies between the branches intrigue me. Culturally I'm Catholic, but I wouldn't consider myself overly devout or dogmatic. Heavy Agnostic tendencies.

But a more mainstream version of my point could be thought up as this.

We did live in a world where nothing bad ever happened.
We broke the rules and got kicked out.
So now we live in a world where bad stuff happens.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:26 AM #108
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Well, YOU wouldn't have been there. I wouldn't have been there either. None of us would have. No death means no new life. Little Cain and Able didn't show up until after the Apple Incident.
Fine. Why would God create a garden for Adam and Eve to live in that sucked? That seems rather twisted.

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Not saying I got all the answers (I'm just a dude on the internet), but that could have been the plan all along. Think of parents and their children. As some point the kids got to reach the point where they can say "no, I'd rather do this". They'll often be wrong, but they learn from those mistakes. Staying in the Garden there would be no mistakes, and thus nothing ever learned.
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Ooh, idea that just came to me. What if he did't makes us, we (as in humanity) were just the ones who did it first? So, hypothetically, think of the Garden as a sort of laboratory. The big guy comes up with a life form, sticks it in the lab, and puts up a big "Don't push" sign over a button and trains the life form not to push it. Probably a long string of 100% successes, but that's how you make robots, servant. How do you make something intelligent? Independent? That's the one where you tell them not to push, but they push it anyways, just to see what happens.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this other than to question when "That's an easy one, you don't even have to get past Genesis. Give that a quick skim, read between the lines a bit" turned into this .


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Just for my own curiosity, what flavor of Christianity would you say you follow? Subtle differences in dogma and philosophies between the branches intrigue me.
Depends what day it is. Lol. Lately I have been interested in transcendentalism.
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Old 01-10-2013, 12:55 AM #109
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Quote:
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Fine. Why would God create a garden for Adam and Eve to live in that sucked? That seems rather twisted.
Ah, but "sucked" is subjective. There are probably people who would find a safe, secure life devoid of anything potentially bad happening or new knowledge being gained to be the perfect life.

I'd hate it. Apparently old Great to the power of untold thousands Grand Ma didn't care for it much either.

(usual agnostic disclaimer, I tend to take Genesis as historically metaphorical, but useful to take at face value for discussions such as this)

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I'm not quite sure how to respond to this other than to question when "That's an easy one, you don't even have to get past Genesis. Give that a quick skim, read between the lines a bit" turned into this .
It's the reading between the lines that is the key.
If we're made in His image, then conversely He's in ours, gives us a license to anthropomorphosize a bit.

Say you wanted to program a true Artificial Intelligence. How would you know when you've succeeded? Probably the first time you told it to play chess and it said "no, I'd rather play minesweeper". So take that and see if it metaphorically fits into the story. Not a bad fit. No proof or anything, but fun to think about.

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Depends what day it is. Lol. Lately I have been interested in transcendentalism.
(looks at clip board, shrugs, puts X next to "other/non-denominational")

Just once I'd like to ask that question and have someone say Methodist. We got a decent sized Methodist church here in town but oddly never run into any. Just find it odd.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:55 AM #110
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That is some creative thinking right there, but this apple thing. Where in the Bible does it say the forbidden fruit was an apple?

Some Christians believe heaven is a state of mind; that it is already here. When Jesus said to give in secret, for great is your reward in heaven, a few Christians think the reward is instant. A silent joy from giving and helping people in need.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:27 PM #111
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Ah, but "sucked" is subjective. There are probably people who would find a safe, secure life devoid of anything potentially bad happening or new knowledge being gained to be the perfect life.

I'd hate it. Apparently old Great to the power of untold thousands Grand Ma didn't care for it much either.
I'm questioning whether or not someone could hate something if they lacked free will. Doesn't hating something imply reflection which implies the ability for free thought?

Also, I thought God declared the garden to be "good". If it sucked, clearly he was either mistaken or lying.


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It's the reading between the lines that is the key.
If we're made in His image, then conversely He's in ours, gives us a license to anthropomorphosize a bit.
I wouldn't be so quick on that. If I made a sculpture in my image, does that mean it has the ability to act? I often think the whole "in his image" thing gets stretched a bit to far.

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(looks at clip board, shrugs, puts X next to "other/non-denominational")

Just once I'd like to ask that question and have someone say Methodist. We got a decent sized Methodist church here in town but oddly never run into any. Just find it odd.
I used to work for the Methodist church for a while (not in a clergy role or anything) if that helps. Lol

But I think everyone wants to be as special as a snowflake. So, the generic "I am in this box" seems rather dull.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:59 PM #112
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Few things fubarious.

1)Made in his image means 2 things: possessing mind(will), because God is will and pure potential. The other is as an actualization of the potential. You have zero license to anthropomorphize.

2) the Garden is not a "place" as in some land on earth. The entire physical story is an allegory to explain the cause of souls descent.

3) Adam is not your ancestor. It is your essence, your archetype of which you are merely an instance. A further actualization of potential from the Infinite.

3) The Garden of Eden is transcendent. Thinking of transcendence in terms of being alive or dead is incorrect.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:06 PM #113
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Because if God is a sentient being, it's an *******. But there is a balance necessary. No good without evil, yin-yang, and the balance of the universe and all that.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:47 PM #114
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That is some creative thinking right there, but this apple thing. Where in the Bible does it say the forbidden fruit was an apple?
Technically never mentions the specifics of the fruit. European artists just used the apple since it was the first fruit that probably came to someone's head when he went to make a painting, and everyone just followed suit. I seem to remember that in older Jewish art it was often shown to be a fig (it's on wikipedia somewhere if you want to look). The specifics are of course irrelevant to the story.


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I'm questioning whether or not someone could hate something if they lacked free will. Doesn't hating something imply reflection which implies the ability for free thought?
Oh I agree. A non-free entity would just follow the given commands, there'd be no preference. Of course I tend to think of free will as a bit of a sliding scale, not an absolute. So you could get someone who hates the particular situation but obeys anyways.

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Also, I thought God declared the garden to be "good". If it sucked, clearly he was either mistaken or lying.
Ah, but "good" is subjective as well. It may have been absolutely perfect for its designed purpose... which may not have been to keep a couple of humans happy and satisfied for an eternity.

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I wouldn't be so quick on that. If I made a sculpture in my image, does that mean it has the ability to act? I often think the whole "in his image" thing gets stretched a bit to far.
A sculpture that could act wouldn't be a sculpture.
We also have a limited data set. Not an abundance of intelligent life forms on this planet, so we don't have much in the way of alternative models of thought.

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Few things fubarious.

1)Made in his image means 2 things: possessing mind(will), because God is will and pure potential. The other is as an actualization of the potential. You have zero license to anthropomorphize.
Interesting dogma, and I do agree for the most part (except for your conclusion), I just happen to also have no problem in there being a reflection of thought patterns, emotions, intents, desires, etc. In fact this entire thread depends on a certain amount of anthropomorphism, since without it concepts like "good" or "bad" have no meaning.

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2) the Garden is not a "place" as in some land on earth. The entire physical story is an allegory to explain the cause of souls descent.
Oh I agree again, but for the purpose of this particular discussion it's easier to revert to a direct reading, just so we don't get conflicting metaphors. Heck, this whole board is an exercise in mental masturbation, no point in putting sand in the lube.

Plus my original point is that the "descent" could have been more of a necessary part of the souls development.

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3) Adam is not your ancestor. It is your essence, your archetype of which you are merely an instance. A further actualization of potential from the Infinite.
Though evolutionary theory indicates that biologically speaking we all seem descended from the same "Eve" (not actual name of course ). And again, sticking to an as read version just for easy of discussion. That way us metaphorical and allegorical folks can talk with the literal YEC'ers and still have a good conversation.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:16 PM #115
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Interesting dogma, and I do agree for the most part (except for your conclusion), I just happen to also have no problem in there being a reflection of thought patterns, emotions, intents, desires, etc. In fact this entire thread depends on a certain amount of anthropomorphism, since without it concepts like "good" or "bad" have no meaning.
A reflection onto what and from whom?

Then you don't understand good or evil.

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Oh I agree again, but for the purpose of this particular discussion it's easier to revert to a direct reading, just so we don't get conflicting metaphors. Heck, this whole board is an exercise in mental masturbation, no point in putting sand in the lube.
The direct reading isn't revealing without context and a working knowledge of theology and philosophy. There is no point in discussing what you think it means if you are going into it from an unlearned position. Mental masturbation? Go read slate.

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Plus my original point is that the "descent" could have been more of a necessary part of the souls development.
Eastern & Greek traditions agree.

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Though evolutionary theory indicates that biologically speaking we all seem descended from the same "Eve" (not actual name of course ). And again, sticking to an as read version just for easy of discussion. That way us metaphorical and allegorical folks can talk with the literal YEC'ers and still have a good conversation.
This isn't about what evolutionary theory says or what you think evolutionary theory says but Christian ontology, don't even bother bringing it in here. Again, sticking to the as read on TV version is inadequate.

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Old 01-11-2013, 12:10 AM #116
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A reflection onto what and from whom?

Then you don't understand good or evil.
Note: He said good and bad not good and evil. Biblically, those are very different things.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:26 AM #117
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Note: He said good and bad not good and evil. Biblically, those are very different things.
How do you figure ?
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:58 AM #118
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How do you figure ?
Simply put: "the opposite of bad" is not the same as "the opposite of evil". Good in terms of bad implies things that good in terms of evil does not and vice versa.

Biblically: To be honestly a lot of the distinct subtleties go over my head but I'll give it a shot.

Hebrew: While there is one word for "good" (tobh), theologians often use it as a polyseme with 5 meanings: practical, abstract, quality, moral, and technical.

Greek: There are 3 words so the distinctions are more clear.
-kalos, which means something free from defects, and beautiful.
-agathos, referring to moral excellence, something that is worthy of admiration.
-chrestos, which means something that is useful, profitable, or serviceable, later broadening to include kindness, goodness of heart.

In summary, I am not asserting that "good v evil" is largely different than "good v bad" but there certainly are some subtleties. I feel as if that wasn't very clear (my languages could use work and to be honest I feel a bit frazzled right now), so if it wasn't feel free to ask for clarity.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:29 AM #119
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Wink

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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Simply put: "the opposite of bad" is not the same as "the opposite of evil". Good in terms of bad implies things that good in terms of evil does not and vice versa.

Biblically: To be honestly a lot of the distinct subtleties go over my head but I'll give it a shot.

Hebrew: While there is one word for "good" (tobh), theologians often use it as a polyseme with 5 meanings: practical, abstract, quality, moral, and technical.

Greek: There are 3 words so the distinctions are more clear.
-kalos, which means something free from defects, and beautiful.
-agathos, referring to moral excellence, something that is worthy of admiration.
-chrestos, which means something that is useful, profitable, or serviceable, later broadening to include kindness, goodness of heart.

In summary, I am not asserting that "good v evil" is largely different than "good v bad" but there certainly are some subtleties. I feel as if that wasn't very clear (my languages could use work and to be honest I feel a bit frazzled right now), so if it wasn't feel free to ask for clarity.
I gots me an issue with the opposites.

I take Evil to mean "that which causes the privation of Good. I suspect this definition is adualistic, but it makes more sense to me in light of understanding Good.

Dualistic evil is problematic because it can lead one to conclude "Killing is always evil" when in fact, not killing will, at times, lead to a privation of Good. We see the argument all the time that God is a big meanie because he requires the death of people. Looking at evil in a dualistic sense gets us there..

What does this have to do with bad? Not much. I don't think bad is much different, theologically than evil. Colloquially it is more synonymous with undesired outcomes or states of being which isn't entirely theologically relevant. Unless you have a different idea of bad and evil?
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:50 AM #120
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Fine. Why would God create a garden for Adam and Eve to live in that sucked?
I think the simple answer to that question is, a tortured soul must have more value to God than a happy one.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:36 PM #121
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I think the simple answer to that question is, a tortured soul must have more value to God than a happy one.
I mean either the conclusion is sound or one of the premises are flawed. I'm going to lean towards the latter.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:38 PM #122
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I gots me an issue with the opposites.

I take Evil to mean "that which causes the privation of Good. I suspect this definition is adualistic, but it makes more sense to me in light of understanding Good.

Dualistic evil is problematic because it can lead one to conclude "Killing is always evil" when in fact, not killing will, at times, lead to a privation of Good. We see the argument all the time that God is a big meanie because he requires the death of people. Looking at evil in a dualistic sense gets us there..

What does this have to do with bad? Not much. I don't think bad is much different, theologically than evil. Colloquially it is more synonymous with undesired outcomes or states of being which isn't entirely theologically relevant. Unless you have a different idea of bad and evil?
I haven't forgot you. I've been thinking about this. I actually sliced my finger open yesterday and had to go get it stitched up, so I'm having to type really slow. Saving the long responses for a couple days.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:50 PM #123
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I haven't forgot you. I've been thinking about this. I actually sliced my finger open yesterday and had to go get it stitched up, so I'm having to type really slow. Saving the long responses for a couple days.
No worries.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:35 AM #124
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Why I Raise My Children Without God

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-910282?hpt=hp_c3

Interesting.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:58 PM #125
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Why I Raise My Children Without God

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-910282?hpt=hp_c3

Interesting.
I'm starting to wish the Gutenberg Bible never existed. That all mass printing of any sacred next never happened. It opens up the floodgate of theological stupidity that is this article. It opens up the theological stupidity that this article is a reaction to.

For once, just ****ing once, I want a door to door proselytizer to teach me Augustine, likewise, I wish more more atheists would understand and critique folks like Augustine. I think what has slowly become the most insufferable thing in this debate is the endless clamoring for moral high ground as the entire justification for an argument. If the God that you describe exists, your contrary morals mean literally dick ****.

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