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Old 01-15-2013, 03:05 AM #1
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PM6 - Choppin n' dropin' off.. :/

Soooo.... Been out of the world for a bit.. Got my PM6 back sunday and it was all teched up by Dye themselves. Was shooting ok, yet had a good amount of drop-offs and started to chop a goooood amount of paint. Practice wasnt goin all that great due to that so I was able to grab an Axe which was shooting way better and go from there. I maybe chopped maybe 5-10 tops for the rest of the day with the Axe. My PM was just being a douche. Im here becuase, I read the tophat mod, so that could help with the drop-off, but would any of you know any good settings to help towards the chopping? My barrel was good as far as under/over sizing for the bore.. The paint wasnt the greatest, so Im sure that was semi-part of it.. But it was more than usual/what it should. I just wanted to use it, since it was nicely serviced by Dye. Yet I couldnt due to lame choppy-ness. So, if anyone knows what I could do/play with, know any good settings... Maybe has been here and knows a trick or 2.. Or maybe just mess with the dwell a little? Im sure its back to fac settings and not blamming Dye at all.. Just wanna see if theres anything I can do to get this puppy back in the game.
Thanks guys!
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:39 AM #2
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A guy I know was chopping paint like crazy the other day. Replaced the batteries in his hopper. That did the trick.

As for the PM issue, not familiar with your model, so I can't help u there.

As for first shot drop off, turn up the dwell.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:02 PM #3
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Ya, I was using a rotor and those batteries were fresh.. So I dunno there..

And it was more of a first shot and then a few othwr shots on and off.. So I guess ill have to mess with the dwell too
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:11 PM #4
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:07 PM #5
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Thinking it could be dwell but anyone else think otherwise..? :/
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:53 PM #6
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dwell, a gummed up reg are the first things that come to mind for the drop off.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:04 PM #7
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Yea, I was also thinking along that too, but then the reg was actually just serviced by Dye also.. New parts and what not.. So not so sure now.. I was told that the reg was and the the gun was put back to fac settings.. So maybe the dwell..? Should I up it 1, 2..? I dont have a tank so cant really play with it till I get to the field on sunday. It was pretty cold out as well that day
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:19 PM #8
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Yea, I was also thinking along that too, but then the reg was actually just serviced by Dye also.. New parts and what not.. So not so sure now.. I was told that the reg was and the the gun was put back to fac settings.. So maybe the dwell..? Should I up it 1, 2..? I dont have a tank so cant really play with it till I get to the field on sunday. It was pretty cold out as well that day
I have dwell in my pm8 at 20ms. Stock on the m8 is 18ms. And I turn it down to stock in winter. The other issue with chopping, is that u could have a lpr issue - ie u may need to turn it out a little more.

I'm talking like a 1/4 turn, if that per tweak till it shoots consistently. Especially in winter, as sometimes the bolt may not slide back as far due to the cold, in as much as it might stick a little on the way forward.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:26 PM #9
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Was thinking about the lpr too.. Guess ill have to up the dwell some and mess with that lpr like your saying.. So mess with lpr first then go from there you think or dwell up then lpr? I mean ill mess with both if I can.. Just seeing which to play with first or just take a wack at both... Just funny it wasnt shooting as nice as I would have liked.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:14 PM #10
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If you sent it to dye they probably put those crappy white/clear orings in the front can and top hat. Those things always swell up and cause problems. I forget the sizes but they're the two large ones that ride on the bolt at the very front of the can and the wide part of the top hat. Swap those out for black buna orings if you have them and many of your future problems will vanish.

If you don't have replacements, then you may actually have to raise your LPR and dwell above factory specs to get the gun cycling consistently until you get the proper orings.

Another possibility is one of the techs actually put the wrong sized orings somewhere in your drive train. They're human......it happens. Pull the drive train out and move the bolt back and forth with your finger. If it seems sticky or tight then you have to find the problem oring. Simple enough just take all the pieces apart and slide the bolt into each one individually until you find the piece and oring that cause the issue. I'm sure they did a full oring replacement when you sent the gun in so it could be any oring that touches the bolt directly.

Now......aside from your gun issues, if you broke 5-10 balls in the axe then you must be playing in some cold, or the paint was pretty brittle. That means you really need to get your gun running low pressure as long as this paint and cold last. Once you have the gun working raise the dwell to 20. Then reset the LPR and chrony again. This will get your bolt pressure lower and prevent more clips. Next you can turn the feed rate down on your Rotor. I forget the actual method but search the forums and you'll find it. This will put less stack pressure on the balls and help prevent bolt clipping as well.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:35 PM #11
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Well thats new news to me.. Yet good news.. I wouldnt have figured this.. Yet im fresh out of lube and rings.. So was worried about pulling apart since Iwould prolly have to relube.. But I may still do this anyways just to see whats up in there and see if any of this is true. And these black buna rings, where to get those? Any where pretty much?
As for the cold, it start at about 25degrees then slowly went up.. It prolly topped out at around 40something for the day.. So that beginning of the morning really sucked.. Ice was even on the terf.. My lanes were horrbile as well.. So that could have played a small roll.. lol..
As far as paint.. yah it was brittle, dimples and all.. Mine was just choppin a good amount here and there. As for the axe, I dont remember exaclty how many, it really may have only been 5ish for the rest of the day and I was ramping with it.. My PM was semi. So im sure the paint played a larger roll, just the PM was hurtin more than the Axe was. But I will go with what you said and see what happens. Just hope the rings arent off like you said though.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:07 PM #12
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Well thats new news to me.. Yet good news.. I wouldnt have figured this.. Yet im fresh out of lube and rings.. So was worried about pulling apart since Iwould prolly have to relube.. But I may still do this anyways just to see whats up in there and see if any of this is true. And these black buna rings, where to get those? Any where pretty much?
As for the cold, it start at about 25degrees then slowly went up.. It prolly topped out at around 40something for the day.. So that beginning of the morning really sucked.. Ice was even on the terf.. My lanes were horrbile as well.. So that could have played a small roll.. lol..
As far as paint.. yah it was brittle, dimples and all.. Mine was just choppin a good amount here and there. As for the axe, I dont remember exaclty how many, it really may have only been 5ish for the rest of the day and I was ramping with it.. My PM was semi. So im sure the paint played a larger roll, just the PM was hurtin more than the Axe was. But I will go with what you said and see what happens. Just hope the rings arent off like you said though.
You can get the black orings in any matrix kit not made by dye. If you have to use the clear ones then go for it. They're usually fine for the most part but once in a while you get one that just swells up, or is too tight for no reason. When I was working for a local field I replaced all of them with the black ones and we never had problems on any dye/proto guns after that.

25 degrees is way below the lower limit for most paintballs lol. I think the lower limit is about 55 degrees. So........that being said you'll certainly need to make some adjustments for the cold

Run your dwell high and your LPR low. Run a loose bore barrel. You may want to raise you BIP delay. Turn down your hopper tension. Try to keep the paint warm if possible. Use a hot water bottle in the bottom of a cooler lol. I dunno.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:58 PM #13
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It turns out that they used the black ones... Pretty interesting I thought with what youve said.. Good thing though.. I did turn up the dwell and lpr today though.. The consistancy was pretty good to say the least but the balls were still kinda choppy here and there.. I think im gonna have to mess with another barrel.. Next prac ill have to use a teamates if I can snag one.. Mine, the balls dont fall right through but they arent stuck either, so I thought I was ok.. But you could be right now about that as well.. Could be more barrel breaks then the bolt.. But that whold thing did seem to help a bunch.. The weather was better.. And all these guys out there with all these new guns, they didnt have that much of chopping issues.. So 2 down, 1 to go with the barrel now.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:48 AM #14
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Barrel might help. Sounds like your barrel is in the wrong size. Normally you want slightly tight, or overly loose. Not a good fit. For cold you want overly loose. Can I ask what you adjusted your dwell to? I'd crank it right up to like 21ms. That should get your LPR down to about 3 turns or so.....the lower the better because less energy behind the bolt means less ball stack clipping. I should also mention you want to set your regs once your'e out in the cold(gun climatized). Setting them in a warm room then taking it into the cold could leave you with a bolt that doesn't cycle 100% all the time, which will also break paint.

What type of hopper are you using? I would see if you can try someone's hopper. If yours is pushing down too hard on the ball stack, it can cause problems with cold paint. You want it to push down softly so that the balls can bounce away from the bolt hits, rather than stay in place and crack. Some hoppers have adjustable stack tension. You want it low if yours adjusts.

Raise your BIP setting a couple ms as well. It never hurts in the cold to give your balls more time to settle. Just to compensate in feed rate gaps when your hopper runs low on paint. I would cap the gun at about 15bps too if you haven't already.

Ummmmmmm now for desperation mode. If you can't keep your paint warm I'm going to tell you a little trick that I used to use with brittle paint that might help. When you get to the field....open your box of paint. Open the bags up and pour them all into the box. Grab one or two, squeeze them(not on the seam) and try to remember how much pressure it takes to flex the shell. Now......let the paint sit in open air(mix them every 15 minutes or so). Don't pod it......don't put it in your hopper. The idea is to let the shells soak up a tiny bit of moisture from the air. That will soften them up a bit and prevent those stack cracks. Keep mixing them and testing them until you notice them getting a bit softer. Not a lot.....just a bit. You can do drop tests to see if they become more bouncy as well. This can also be done at home before you play. Once the paint has gained a bit more flex, bag it up again. Now the amount of time it takes for them to get soft depends on the moisture in the air. More moisture means less time. Just use your best judgement, but sometimes it can take a couple hours. Honestly I'd rather have the odd bounce here and there then broken paint in my gun causing accuracy issues so err on the side of softer if possible.

Another thing to check. If you shoot your gun with the hopper off and a feed neck full of paint do the balls bounce upward a lot? If so you obviously have a stack clipping issue. You can try to change to a slightly larger bolt tip oring or a slightly thinner bolt tip oring. Whichever helps prevent the balls from bouncing up as much. The PM6 being a bit of an older gun really doesn't have good ball stack control for playing in the cold. Not like most of the newer guns. Plus paint was a lot larger in 2006. Anything you can do to prevent it is a good thing.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:15 AM #15
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Ya im thinking so.. Its a CP, .692 though.. Maybe larger or something now.. Just buggs now that these other newer guns barley had, if any, issues with the paint.. I didnt bother to ask what bore size they were shooting with.. Dumb me.. And the hopper is a rotor.

I actually did rake it up to 21ms for the dwell.. lol.. Played with th lpr too and was shooting pretty consistant.. Yet still saw a few breaks again, so more towards the end, I put it up to 22ms and lpr'd it again. I more or less turned out the lpr 1/4th turns a couple times until I saw a good consistancy. But I may go back and do the 3 turn out like your saying. I would have also capped it but I wanted to keep up with these other d*bags out there.. lol.. And I was at times, just still a few breaks here and there..

Ill have to try what your saying one time about the paint. Hard for me right now since right when we get there, its suit up and drill time. I dont have the time to spare to try it all and I usually get the paint from them that day given its the team/field paint. But ill figure out a way to try your "desperation mode" breakdown since it sounds like it should help.

Ill have to try that last check too, prolly after prac sunday unless I get there sooner and I will, along with that paint mode of yours.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:40 PM #16
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.692 should be ok. Most paint is way smaller than that...although in the cold barrel diameters can shrink. Maybe just borrow a barrel and see. Saves you money lol.

Remember the newer guns are all designed for low bolt energy, and better ball stack management than the older guns were. Nothing you can do about that. You can only work with what you have.

The rotor is also a problem. It's probably pushing down on the ball stack too hard for a PM6. The PM6 ball stack isn't very clean. There is a way to adjust the speed/tension on the rotor. You'll just have to search online since I'm not familiar with it. It involves turning a screw inside the mechanical part. Seemed simple when I read it but you'll have to experiment. That might help too.

You may not have much time with your paint but what I would do is just get there, open the box and dump in your paint before you even get geared up. Letting it sit there as the day goes on should still help. Maybe not the first few games but any help is some help.

You might want to look around online and see if anyone makes a pm6 bolt with a rubber tip. That might help too.

If nothing else you're going to be an expert at running a gun in cold weather lol.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:11 PM #17
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Well.... Did the paint idea today, I actually noticed that the paint became a little more bouncy'r.. So good lookin on that.. But, as for my piece.. Still chopped even with putting up the dwell and ABS (virtue board).. Then I had leaks out the bolt/back.. Just a messy day.. I got a hold of an ego, didnt chop once and then the rest of the day with an Axe, maayyybbbeee chopped once.. Dont even member if I did.. So im guessing at this point, my poor baby is just a nice paper weight.. I just cant seem to get whats up.. :/
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:35 PM #18
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Well.... Did the paint idea today, I actually noticed that the paint became a little more bouncy'r.. So good lookin on that.. But, as for my piece.. Still chopped even with putting up the dwell and ABS (virtue board).. Then I had leaks out the bolt/back.. Just a messy day.. I got a hold of an ego, didnt chop once and then the rest of the day with an Axe, maayyybbbeee chopped once.. Dont even member if I did.. So im guessing at this point, my poor baby is just a nice paper weight.. I just cant seem to get whats up.. :/
Web -

Increase the ball detection time. My etek was chopping the other day. I increased ball detection time, and it worked.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:19 PM #19
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Would that be as in Eye Sensitivity..? Only thing that looks like what your talking about when it comes to this virtue board.. And if so, increase by adding more of a delay time or less of a delay time??
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:59 PM #20
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Quote:
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Well.... Did the paint idea today, I actually noticed that the paint became a little more bouncy'r.. So good lookin on that.. But, as for my piece.. Still chopped even with putting up the dwell and ABS (virtue board).. Then I had leaks out the bolt/back.. Just a messy day.. I got a hold of an ego, didnt chop once and then the rest of the day with an Axe, maayyybbbeee chopped once.. Dont even member if I did.. So im guessing at this point, my poor baby is just a nice paper weight.. I just cant seem to get whats up.. :/
Hmmm if the paint is actually bouncy and you're still chopping then something is still wrong. Also ABS is anti bolt stick, I wanted you to change your BIP setting to allow more time for paint to drop into the bore lol.

Out of curiosity, you do have good detents? The PM6 has the older rubber style and if they're too worn, you will have problems. If you can find some I'd put in some of the plastic cup style since they'll hold back the smaller paint better.

Over all I think it's your rotor pushing down too hard on the paint which is exaggerating the roll back and bolt clipping an older gun like a PM6 will have. Egos and Axes both have anti roll back bolt designs to combat this. Either that, or try to lower your rotor tension.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw0nE9qtOIc

I don't think anyone makes an aftermarket anti-roll back bolt for the PM6 unfortunately.

This is what's happenning in your PM6......although this is an ego video it shows why they invented the anti roll back bolts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw0nE9qtOIc
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:29 AM #21
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Mason74 owns a Planet Eclipse Etek
Mason74 supports Team VICIOUS
Mason74 is for the Gunfight
Mason74 has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webble View Post
Would that be as in Eye Sensitivity..? Only thing that looks like what your talking about when it comes to this virtue board.. And if so, increase by adding more of a delay time or less of a delay time??
Increase the ball detection time
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