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View Poll Results: Should teachers be allowed to carry?
Yes, with the requirements listed. 21 43.75%
Yes, but only administration and office personel 2 4.17%
Yes, with just a CC license/permit 12 25.00%
No, but they should be able to leave their weapons in their vehicles 2 4.17%
No way 11 22.92%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-21-2012, 08:06 PM #43
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Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
Name me a time in history in which any sort of prohibition law has worked?
Australia. Fairly recently.

I am not saying one instance equates to the rest of the world though.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:11 PM #44
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Australia. Fairly recently.

I am not saying one instance equates to the rest of the world though.
I would suggest you do your research before you tout Australia as a prime example.

In fact when we look at the overall numbers, yes gun murders have gone down quite a bit, however the overall murder rate has continued to climb. This tells us that people are still killing each other, now more than ever with things other than guns. Next we look at their stats for crimes aganst 65 and older, again up , by a small percent but none the less up compared to pre-gun ban.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:28 PM #45
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Overall homicide rates had actually dipped slightly since the ban.

http://web.archive.org/web/200904171...fi/cfi003.html

I'm interested in knowing where you're getting your statistics from.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:15 PM #46
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Quote:
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You sir, have no grasp on reality what so ever. We trust teachers with our children 8+ hours a day, to fill their heads with knowlage, but we don't trust them to carry a handgun?
Firstly, you literally couldn't even spell knowledge. Secondly, I have no grasp in reality because I suspect there would be instances of neglect (Leaving the gun out somewhere or leaving the safety off causing accidental discharge), temporary insanity (It's a frustrating and challenging job teachers have), or being overpowered/snatched from by a student or group of students (Especially in the event of a fight/congested conflict)? Are you saying none of this could ever happen, and that there is no added liability for the schools by arming educators?

Teachers should focus on teaching. The protecting from intruders should be handled by the police or a security company.

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I'm interested in knowing where you're getting your statistics from.
Chain mails, memes, Facebook pictures/posts, Fox, etc. The usual right wing sources of knowledge. Perpetual posting of unsourced graphs and images makes them feel informed. That, and quoting Ted Nugent.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:24 PM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Overall homicide rates had actually dipped slightly since the ban.

http://web.archive.org/web/200904171...fi/cfi003.html

I'm interested in knowing where you're getting your statistics from.
They get their statistics from pro-gun "research" that was done shortly after the ban during the period when there was not enough data to show anything conclusive and before the ban had time to produce any results.

This is a semi-serious analysis of how those claims get made and why they are wrong: http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Hopefully the pro folks will provide a few links for you to look at.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:18 AM #48
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For what purpose?
To prevent kids from dying? Did you not hear about this recent school shooting? Maybe I have to break it to you that police didn't stop the shooter because they weren't even there.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:38 AM #49
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first of all 1 of the major problems with school shootings is public schools. when you rely on a system that has endless money coming in people naturally become lazy and don't try to live up to their best abilities. if however schools were privatized, you can be damn sure a private school would do its best to provide a safe learning environment for your children. and if not you will have many more options to choose from until you found a school for you and your child. of course anyone who really cares about their child should unschool them or homeschool.

Last edited by firststrike01 : 12-22-2012 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:53 AM #50
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Originally Posted by firststrike01 View Post
first of all 1 of the major problems with school shootings is public schools. when you rely on a system that has endless money coming in people naturally become lazy and don't try to live up to their best abilities. if however schools were privatized, you can be damn sure a private school would do its best to provide a safe learning environment for your children. and if not you will have many more options to choose from until you found a school for you and your child. of course anyone who really cares about their child should unschool them or homeschool.
I've been to two private schools, and they were terrible. Because the only thing they focused on was making money, the computers were out of date, the teachers were understaffed and undereducated, and their was no discipline, because if your mommy paid more money to the school, you could get away with murder. I don't think privatization is the way to go.

Also, I don't think most people are qualified to homeschool their child past second is third grade.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:10 AM #51
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I've been to two private schools, and they were terrible. Because the only thing they focused on was making money, the computers were out of date, the teachers were understaffed and undereducated, and their was no discipline, because if your mommy paid more money to the school, you could get away with murder. I don't think privatization is the way to go.

Also, I don't think most people are qualified to homeschool their child past second is third grade.
you sound like an ignorant baby when you completely dismiss a perfectly fair and reasonable solution just because of one bad (or 2) bad experience. obviously not all private schools are the best. hence the notion of competition that would weed out the bad ones. something that public schools can't do and many refuse to allow competition. its very selfish of you to want to continue to FORCE people to fund a unsafe failing system. do you have some kind of investment in that like a job you are trying to protect? and if one can't educate or afford to educate their kid than there will always be charities to help.

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Old 12-22-2012, 12:42 PM #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElJefe13 View Post

I've been to two private schools, and they were terrible. Because the only thing they focused on was making money, the computers were out of date, the teachers were understaffed and undereducated, and their was no discipline, because if your mommy paid more money to the school, you could get away with murder. I don't think privatization is the way to go.

Also, I don't think most people are qualified to homeschool their child past second is third grade.
Lol, how old are you?
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:45 PM #53
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Sure I'll pack heat in a classroom, and while we're at it give me a fire hose, ax, and fire inspection codes because hell, it's not like we have anything better to do.
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:54 PM #54
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first of all 1 of the major problems with school shootings is public schools. when you rely on a system that has endless money coming in people naturally become lazy and don't try to live up to their best abilities. if however schools were privatized, you can be damn sure a private school would do its best to provide a safe learning environment for your children. and if not you will have many more options to choose from until you found a school for you and your child. of course anyone who really cares about their child should unschool them or homeschool.
Cool, send your kid to private school. They"ll be fine as long as they don't require any OT, PT, SLP or any other service they should need should they become disabled. Hell if they are disabled, don't send them to school at all. I currently have my two girls in a private school and it happens to be great, it just took a long, long, long search to find one. We had a tough time finding one that had up to date equipment, and enough qualified staff (as far as teachers went). Private school is an option, if you can find a decent one, but please don't make them sound like they are all the end all be all in education because that is just not true.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:30 PM #55
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From the states as laboratories of democracy department, is anyone aware of an instance where an armed teacher in Utah caused a problem?

I've been unable to find one.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:57 PM #56
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I'm building up information to write in my blog about giving teachers the right to conceal carry in school. To do this, I'm looking up information, but more importantly I want actual real life people telling me their opinions. I have polls set up all over the place and I'm asking that people, at the very minimum, give me a yes or no answer. Of course, your reasoning is welcome. I would ask that people don't flame/troll each other in this thread because we all come from different backgrounds and were raised differently, so our beliefs are just that - our personal beliefs.

Let me set it up for you. Oklahoma has a senator that is writing a bill to allow teachers to carry. From what I've read so far, there are about 7 other states doing the same thing - Texas already does it in some districts. I agree with the bill, but I would include these stipulations.

1. Strictly voluntary for the teachers - if they don't want to, they don't have to.
2. Reserve CLEET training. (Basically once you complete this you're on the level of training a reserve LEO gets in Oklahoma, at least.)
3. Monthly required range fire sessions.
4. Concealed carry license required.
5. Anonymity. (Unfortunately, as the only male in my building, it'll be assumed I'm carrying whether I am or not.)
6. Bi-yearly 14 hour (minimum) training/class in assault.
7. Weapon kept in a gun safe, locked, in either desk or cabinet not accessible to students. If kept on body (recess duty, bus trips, or lunch room duty) it is to be hidden from view.
8. Information kept in file on the ability to carry in the classroom, updated yearly by the district.

In the unlikely and horrible situation a shooter does come, the carriers will STAY WITH THEIR STUDENTS, making sure they are covered and will not leave the room they are assigned. In other words, don't go looking for the gunman.

I do not necessarily support mental health testing as teachers are no more or no less susceptible to this than any other legal, carrying citizen.

If you'll help me out, I'd appreciate it.

1. Leave a yes or no answer, and vote in the poll. Comment if you want, but please think about your reasons.
2. No trolling or flaming.

I may even include information garnered from this thread in a letter to the legislature of my state if I deem it important enough!
#7 makes no sense. if a teacher carries a weapon, they should carry it at all times. The whole point is nullified if your weapon is locked in a safe where you cant quickly access it if the need arises.

everything else i pretty much agree with. Drex also hit on some spots that i agree with.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:13 PM #57
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I agree with MutR.
Teachers who would intend to go armed must do so only if they know they can safely keep the weapon on their person and in their control during the entire school day. If nothing else, it would make anonymity impossible. Also, a school's gun safe could make a tempting target for thieves.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:50 PM #58
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Sure I'll pack heat in a classroom, and while we're at it give me a fire hose, ax, and fire inspection codes because hell, it's not like we have anything better to do.
I'm not meaning to add additional duties to our already full days. This is purely a self-defense/class defense system to put into place. Personally, I feel totally helpless during lockdown drills because all I do is keep the kids quiet. God forbid an actual lockdown happen - I don't really want to face the guy with just my strong words and two fists.

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#7 makes no sense. if a teacher carries a weapon, they should carry it at all times. The whole point is nullified if your weapon is locked in a safe where you cant quickly access it if the need arises.

everything else i pretty much agree with. Drex also hit on some spots that i agree with.
Just for clarification, I mean a gun safe within the classroom, not in an office or closet somewhere else. With the safe I have next to my bed, I can get in and grab my weapon (already loaded and ready to go) in less than two seconds.

This is the scenario that plays in my head all the time. The principal calls lockdown on the intercom. I quickly lock my doors (windows already covered) and get my kids under their desks (however, from now on I'm trying to get them in the bathrooms located in my room). Then I'd go to the safe and get my weapon and stand at the front of the room and wait, hoping to God I don't have to use weapon.

Now, if an intruder were trying to get in my room, he would probably try the north door, depending on which school door he entered. He'd have to break the glass in the door, reach in and turn the doorknob to open it up. I suppose I could grab his arm and hope he doesn't shoot me. Or I can wait until he gets in and wrestle with him. Unfortunately, that also means I'll probably get shot. Sure, I'd be called a hero and have a great funeral, but I'm not quite ready to go yet, ya dig?

I'm too damn close to the front door, and trust me, this **** goes through my mind every damn lockdown drill we have. Yes the front doors are locked, and the office is just to the north of the doors with windows that can view the whole thing. However, glass is not enough of a deterrent for me.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:13 PM #59
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I'm not meaning to add additional duties to our already full days. This is purely a self-defense/class defense system to put into place. Personally, I feel totally helpless during lockdown drills because all I do is keep the kids quiet. God forbid an actual lockdown happen - I don't really want to face the guy with just my strong words and two fists.



Just for clarification, I mean a gun safe within the classroom, not in an office or closet somewhere else. With the safe I have next to my bed, I can get in and grab my weapon (already loaded and ready to go) in less than two seconds.

This is the scenario that plays in my head all the time. The principal calls lockdown on the intercom. I quickly lock my doors (windows already covered) and get my kids under their desks (however, from now on I'm trying to get them in the bathrooms located in my room). Then I'd go to the safe and get my weapon and stand at the front of the room and wait, hoping to God I don't have to use weapon.

Now, if an intruder were trying to get in my room, he would probably try the north door, depending on which school door he entered. He'd have to break the glass in the door, reach in and turn the doorknob to open it up. I suppose I could grab his arm and hope he doesn't shoot me. Or I can wait until he gets in and wrestle with him. Unfortunately, that also means I'll probably get shot. Sure, I'd be called a hero and have a great funeral, but I'm not quite ready to go yet, ya dig?

I'm too damn close to the front door, and trust me, this **** goes through my mind every damn lockdown drill we have. Yes the front doors are locked, and the office is just to the north of the doors with windows that can view the whole thing. However, glass is not enough of a deterrent for me.
The problem with your scenario is that the intruder doesnt hit your classroom first. What happens if the shooter targets your classroom first, before any lockdown order had been issued? You are scrambling trying to get in your safe, most likely getting shot in the process, in stead of reaching to your hip and firing a shot within a second or 2 of the shooters presence in the room.

What happens if youre not near the safe? Teachers dont just sit at their desks all day. what happens if youre in the back of the classroom kneeling down at a students desk helping them with their work?

Having your weapon on your hip not only lets you keep track of the weapon at all times, but it allows for the quickest response time you can possibly have without the weapon already being in your hand.

I also think the fact that if teachers are armed, it would become public knowledge, and just that simple fact would drastically reduce school shootings. The shooter would know right away that it would be nearly impossible to pull off a mass shooting, let alone get away with it if intended.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:35 AM #60
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Okay, real talk here.

Let's say the teacher is concealed carrying or even open carrying.

They aren't ready to fire on a student at any second, but the crazy that shows up is. All the crazy has to do is quickly draw and blast on the teacher, then all of the students are sitting ducks that can only duck and run.

These terrorists also tend to commit suicide. Do they really care whether they take a bullet? Is that really a deterrent?

Just a thought here.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:45 AM #61
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Okay, real talk here.

Let's say the teacher is concealed carrying or even open carrying.

They aren't ready to fire on a student at any second, but the crazy that shows up is. All the crazy has to do is quickly draw and blast on the teacher, then all of the students are sitting ducks that can only duck and run.

These terrorists also tend to commit suicide. Do they really care whether they take a bullet? Is that really a deterrent?

Just a thought here.
With the Oregon mall shooting, if I'm not mistaken a CCW pulled his weapon on the shooter and the shooter quit firing on people and turned the gun on himself right then.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:57 PM #62
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With the Oregon mall shooting, if I'm not mistaken a CCW pulled his weapon on the shooter and the shooter quit firing on people and turned the gun on himself right then.
I'd love to see where you're getting that info...nothing I've found says that at all.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:36 PM #63
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Okay, real talk here.

Let's say the teacher is concealed carrying or even open carrying.

They aren't ready to fire on a student at any second, but the crazy that shows up is. All the crazy has to do is quickly draw and blast on the teacher, then all of the students are sitting ducks that can only duck and run.

These terrorists also tend to commit suicide. Do they really care whether they take a bullet? Is that really a deterrent?

Just a thought here.
The point is maybe 2 students will die if a teacher is carrying rather than TWENTY if you have to sit and wait for the police to show up from who knows where. How many teachers teach at a single school? I would say at least 30 teachers in a small school. every one of them would be able to respond faster than the closest patrolling officer, not even counting the time it takes to actually call 911 and report whats happening.

Deterrent or not, Lives would be saved if teachers were armed. theres no 2 ways around it.
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