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Old 12-16-2012, 10:58 PM #253
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I will say this, I'm definitely in-between many of you.

Gun free zones do not work most of the times. Of course airports, where you pass a thousand security checks (as a result of an incident where people over-reacted, I might add), have incredibly low crime rates and chances of getting ****ed over. But what about most hospitals, health centers, or schools where there is only one or two guards, if that, who can barely shoot a gun? A single person with half a whit to them can walk in and kill everyone in the building. Gun-free zones are highly ineffective unless adequately enforced by the proper procedures, which are not in place in most zones.

I will also say that I believer neither the banning of guns as a whole or removal of rules (and free rule over who gets what) will work and drop crime rates. Clearly banning guns won't work as criminals will just go to the black market and/or find alternate means of coming into possession of guns. Then we have a situation where criminals know the only people with guns are those in uniform or allowed to have them as per ordinance and they'll go have some fun all the time with low risk. But allowing everyone to have them and get whatever they want sure as hell won't fix anything, other than making it easy for criminals to get whatever they want. Then, since everyone has guns, pinpointing who did what could become an issue.

Naturally, a middle means must be found. With that in mind, I believe the current system is just fine the way it is. This country, as well as the world for the argument I'm making, will continue to see increasing crime rates. Thus is the nature of a growing population. But even when we were under-populated and spread out, back in the old western days, there was more crime than people knew what to do with. This is back when whoever had the cash could buy whatever gun the general store had. I could see an argument being made for it to become tougher to get guns by means of more rigorous background checks, making them more expensive, or situations like that being applicable and I'd be down for any of those listed, and many more. These might help deter many of your "every day" criminals who aren't smart enough to find the proper means to acquire guns illegally.

A point that is failing to be brought up by many people, though, is the fact that guns are not the only weapon that could be used to **** up many situations. A couple of guys with baseball bats, golf clubs or knives could easily kill a hospital full of people before many police arrived. Knives would work well as they could be hidden easily and you could slip past the guard unnoticed. If we begin to look at banning guns we also have to look at how to stop alternate weapons of choice to cause harm. This heads down a path that is not only impractical but unconstitutional, I do believe all can agree.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:11 AM #254
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Oh look, a country with a similar culture to the U.S. banned guns, let's see how it worked out for them

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Old 12-17-2012, 12:28 AM #255
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many people HAVE brought up the point that other weapons are available. what is annoying is that people legitimately are suggesting that knives, bats, clubs, sharpened credit cards etc. are just as effective and lethal as modern ergonomic firearms.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:48 AM #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
many people HAVE brought up the point that other weapons are available. what is annoying is that people legitimately are suggesting that knives, bats, clubs, sharpened credit cards etc. are just as effective and lethal as modern ergonomic firearms.
Here is the scary one.



Now the number of bombing incidents vs firearms would likely go down, but the seriousness of each particular event would likely go up. I mean the worst attack on a school in US history was a bombing, not a shooting.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:08 AM #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
many people HAVE brought up the point that other weapons are available. what is annoying is that people legitimately are suggesting that knives, bats, clubs, sharpened credit cards etc. are just as effective and lethal as modern ergonomic firearms.


Isn't this more deadly than your average pistol?
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:38 AM #258
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Originally Posted by Drex17 View Post
Here is the scary one.



Now the number of bombing incidents vs firearms would likely go down, but the seriousness of each particular event would likely go up. I mean the worst attack on a school in US history was a bombing, not a shooting.
agreed. however bombings are more easily prevented than shootings, due to the fact that bombing requires more time to plan (less likely to be a spontaneous attack) as well as suspicious activity planting/concealing the bomb.

i understand there are other ways to kill people, but right now what is most effective and attractive to these crazies is SHOOTING people. everyone keeps bringing up what could be happening, but is clearly less favorable to the criminals involved.

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Isn't this more deadly than your average pistol?
yes, good thing it is regulated in a similar manner to firearms
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:50 AM #259
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Actual gun free zones are extremely effective in stopping gun crime of all types. The most common and well-enforced gun-free zones are airports, and there is effectively zero gun crime in those zones.
No ****. Cops all over the place, TSA, etc. Not to mention that if you do anything even remotely dangerous at an airport you can easily be considered a terrorist or threat to homeland security.

That is like saying "Hey, Lions aren't dangerous. I see them at the zoo all the time."
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:33 AM #260
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Maybe this will put some sense into you gun-grabbing libtards.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:40 AM #261
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Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
agreed. however bombings are more easily prevented than shootings, due to the fact that bombing requires more time to plan (less likely to be a spontaneous attack) as well as suspicious activity planting/concealing the bomb.
Ever heard of a phenomenon called suicide bombing? They don't require any planning or preparation. They are also far more effective methods of mass killing than guns are, if you don't believe me then take a trip to the middle east and see for yourself.
And if you're going to say US citizens wouldn't commit suicide bombings because it would mean they would die, don't the shooters already kill themselves after they shoot people anyway?

Last edited by Blake360 : 12-17-2012 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:54 AM #262
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Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
UK says otherwise.
UK gun crime is miniscule compared to the USA. This link provides some worthwhile stats (rather than the made up rubbish that the Daily Mail peddles).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...hip-world-list

Economically and socially we're similar nations, so if you consider the population of the USA is 314m (2012 estimate) and the population of England & Wales (not the whole UK) is 56m (2011 census), then if mass gun ownership didn't lead to significant increases in gun crime, you'd expect to be able to multiply the stats for England & Wales by 5.6 and get rough parity to the USA figures, however it doesn't work out like that.

Number of homicides by firearm:

USA - 9146
England & Wales - 41

Even accounting for population (x5.6) that only pushes the England & Wales figure up to 229. Which means for an equivalent population you have 39 times more homicides by firearms in the USA than the UK. Scary stuff.

Speaking of which, the one strange thing which comes across to an outsider like myself when reading about US gun control is that the people supporting the right to carry guns for their own defense sound really scared of vague bogymen and seem to need their firearms to feel safe, which is weird given the whole machismo of the gun lobby.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/rig...adly-me,30742/
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:29 AM #263
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Originally Posted by EPAPressure View Post
Oh look, a country with a similar culture to the U.S. banned guns, let's see how it worked out for them

Video Link: http://youtu.be/p8RDWltHxRc
And now?
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:52 AM #264
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Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
Speaking of which, the one strange thing which comes across to an outsider like myself when reading about US gun control is that the people supporting the right to carry guns for their own defense sound really scared of vague bogymen and seem to need their firearms to feel safe, which is weird given the whole machismo of the gun lobby.
Why don't you take your head out of your *** and watch the video I posted above, and then see if you'll make that same comment afterwards.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:09 AM #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chodeyg View Post
many people HAVE brought up the point that other weapons are available. what is annoying is that people legitimately are suggesting that knives, bats, clubs, sharpened credit cards etc. are just as effective and lethal as modern ergonomic firearms.
Perhaps they aren't as efficient as firearms, but they are certainly force multipliers, especially if you are attacking children. Furthermore if you buy the 'guns cause crime' argument, you have to buy the 'baseball bats cause crime' argument; both items did the same amount of decision making.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:14 AM #266
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Originally Posted by Gadget View Post

UK gun crime is miniscule compared to the USA. This link provides some worthwhile stats (rather than the made up rubbish that the Daily Mail peddles).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...hip-world-list

Economically and socially we're similar nations, so if you consider the population of the USA is 314m (2012 estimate) and the population of England & Wales (not the whole UK) is 56m (2011 census), then if mass gun ownership didn't lead to significant increases in gun crime, you'd expect to be able to multiply the stats for England & Wales by 5.6 and get rough parity to the USA figures, however it doesn't work out like that.

Number of homicides by firearm:

USA - 9146
England & Wales - 41

Even accounting for population (x5.6) that only pushes the England & Wales figure up to 229. Which means for an equivalent population you have 39 times more homicides by firearms in the USA than the UK. Scary stuff.

Speaking of which, the one strange thing which comes across to an outsider like myself when reading about US gun control is that the people supporting the right to carry guns for their own defense sound really scared of vague bogymen and seem to need their firearms to feel safe, which is weird given the whole machismo of the gun lobby.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/rig...adly-me,30742/
No one cares about 'number of homicides by firearm'. No **** there are fewer deaths involving firearms when firearms are banned. What are the stats for just homicide? How do those compare? That is what is actually relevant in a discussion like this.

EDIT: bwahahahahahaha I just noticed you actually cited the onion. Damn dude, I'll forgive you if you can't quite comprehend my previous question.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:40 AM #267
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Originally Posted by Blake360 View Post
Why don't you take your head out of your *** and watch the video I posted above, and then see if you'll make that same comment afterwards.
So because you're concerned about the billion-to-1 chance of being sat in a diner when a psycho starts shooting everyone, you're advocating everyone carry firearms? Umm, doesn't than just prove the point I made, that you're scared and feel the need to carry a gun to protect yourself?

Given the relative risk, you'd be better advised to carry a meteorite shield or a de-fib kit in case someone has a heart attack nearby.

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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
No one cares about 'number of homicides by firearm'. No **** there are fewer deaths involving firearms when firearms are banned. What are the stats for just homicide? How do those compare? That is what is actually relevant in a discussion like this.
Really? I'd have thought the homicide rate by firearms is particularly relevant to a discussion about how the prevalence of firearms contribute to homicides, but as you asked so nicely

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...der-rate-unodc

Homicide rates per 100,000 of population (so no need to adjust for relative population size):

USA: 5
UK: 1.2

So more than 4 times more people are murdered in the USA than the UK, yet the number murdered by someone using a firearm is 39 times higher. Doesn't look as though the incredibly high gun ownership in the US is making anyone safer, does it?

Quote:
EDIT: bwahahahahahaha I just noticed you actually cited the onion. Damn dude, I'll forgive you if you can't quite comprehend my previous question.
If you'd care to learn to read at some point, you'll note that I didn't 'cite' the Onion, I merely linked to a piece which I thought sums up the absurdity of the gun lobby's view, regardless of it being a satirical site.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:06 AM #268
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Originally Posted by Blake360 View Post


Maybe this will put some sense into you gun-grabbing libtards.
The last thing she said gets right to the crux of this whole thing. The 2nd amendment is OUR right to protect US against the GOVERNMENT. That's what it boils down to. The reason it comes up so much is the government is afraid of us taking over the ****hole they've created in DC right now...

From the Declaration of Independence:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Those in government do NOT want to lose their job and it's so easy for us to take them out by voting. And they realize we've been here before - approx. 230 years ago.

Conspiracy theory? Maybe. Makes sense to me. If I wanted to keep me and my buddies who controlled everything in the US in that position of control, I'd certainly try to set up "laws" and "control" to avoid having those I governed take that control away. We're going to see a shift in government and the governed, possibly in the next 20 years or so, and it will NOT be a good shift.

/endconspiracytheory
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:11 AM #269
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Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
So because you're concerned about the billion-to-1 chance of being sat in a diner when a psycho starts shooting everyone, you're advocating everyone carry firearms? Umm, doesn't than just prove the point I made, that you're scared and feel the need to carry a gun to protect yourself?

Given the relative risk, you'd be better advised to carry a meteorite shield or a de-fib kit in case someone has a heart attack nearby.



Really? I'd have thought the homicide rate by firearms is particularly relevant to a discussion about how the prevalence of firearms contribute to homicides, but as you asked so nicely

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...der-rate-unodc

Homicide rates per 100,000 of population (so no need to adjust for relative population size):

USA: 5
UK: 1.2

So more than 4 times more people are murdered in the USA than the UK, yet the number murdered by someone using a firearm is 39 times higher. Doesn't look as though the incredibly high gun ownership in the US is making anyone safer, does it?



If you'd care to learn to read at some point, you'll note that I didn't 'cite' the Onion, I merely linked to a piece which I thought sums up the absurdity of the gun lobby's view, regardless of it being a satirical site.

If you are strictly discussing homicides caused by firearms, sure it's a relevant statistic, but we're not; we're discussing restricting a right which is enumerated in the Constitution - primarily because of the false belief that it will somehow make us "safer". If you want to restrict firearms rights on this belief, you need to back up your reasoning with more than 'because I think it will work'. A single statistic from a British newspaper that cites multiple sources in its data tables isn't enough either.

I never claimed that high gun ownership makes us safer; I'm saying that your hyper-restrictive laws don't make you any safer. See the difference?
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:28 AM #270
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Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
UK gun crime is miniscule compared to the USA. This link provides some worthwhile stats (rather than the made up rubbish that the Daily Mail peddles).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...hip-world-list

Economically and socially we're similar nations, so if you consider the population of the USA is 314m (2012 estimate) and the population of England & Wales (not the whole UK) is 56m (2011 census), then if mass gun ownership didn't lead to significant increases in gun crime, you'd expect to be able to multiply the stats for England & Wales by 5.6 and get rough parity to the USA figures, however it doesn't work out like that.

Number of homicides by firearm:

USA - 9146
England & Wales - 41

Even accounting for population (x5.6) that only pushes the England & Wales figure up to 229. Which means for an equivalent population you have 39 times more homicides by firearms in the USA than the UK. Scary stuff.

Speaking of which, the one strange thing which comes across to an outsider like myself when reading about US gun control is that the people supporting the right to carry guns for their own defense sound really scared of vague bogymen and seem to need their firearms to feel safe, which is weird given the whole machismo of the gun lobby.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/rig...adly-me,30742/












http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Oh, yeah. Virginia has seen firearms sales rise 73% while gun-related violent crime dropped 24%. http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/lo...9bb30f31a.html

Just ask the CDC and National Academy of Sciences how well gun control works...

Quote:
In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books and 43 government publications evaluating 80 gun-control measures. Researchers could not identify a single regulation that reduced violent crime, suicide or accidents. A year earlier, the Centers for Disease Control reported on ammunition bans, restrictions on acquisition, waiting periods, registration, licensing, child access prevention and zero tolerance laws. CDC's conclusion: There was no conclusive evidence that the laws reduced gun violence.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-18/o...?_s=PM:OPINION

CDC study: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

National Academy of Sciences study: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309091241

That's right: not a single law or gun control measure that could be credibly linked to a reduction in violent crime, suicides or accidents.

Also, here's a link to the Department of Justice study that failed to demonstrate the effectiveness of the assault weapons ban: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/re..._final2004.pdf

And let's not forget ole Switzerland.

You know, the same country that requires all males, with the exception of those deemed incompetent, to own an assault rifle and also has the second lowest (pretty sure it's the second) crime rate.

Let's also visit Australia

Quote:
It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. *In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
*for LTK

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847


Quote:
Although there is more per capita firepower in Switzerland than any place in the world, it is one of the safest places to be. To the delight of Americans who support the right to keep and bear arms, Switzerland is the proof in the pudding of the argument that guns don't cause crime.

According to the UN International Study on Firearm Regulation, in 1994 the homicide rate in England (including Wales) was 1.4 (9% involving firearms), and the robbery rate 116, per 100,000 population. In the United States, the homicide rate was almost 9.0 (70% involving firearms), and the robbery rate 234, per 100,000. England has strict gun control laws, ergo, the argument goes, the homicide rate is far lower than in the United States. However, such comparisons can be dangerous: in 1900, when England had no gun controls, the homicide rate was only 1.0 per 100,000.

Moreover, using data through 1996, the U.S. Department of Justice study Crime and Justice concluded that in England the robbery rate was 1.4 times higher, the assault rate was 2.3 higher, and the burglary rate was 1.7 times higher than in the United States. Only the murder and rape rates in the United States were higher than in England.

The UN Study omits Switzerland from its comparative analysis. The Swiss example contradicts the Study's hypothesis that a high incidence of firearm ownership correlates with high violent crime.

The Swiss Federal Police Office reports that, in 1997, there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country. Some 91 of these 189 murders and attempts involved firearms (the statistics do not distinguish firearm use in consummated murders from attempts). With its population of seven million (which includes 1.2 million foreigners), Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. There were 2,498 robberies (and attempted robberies), of which 546 involved firearms, giving a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000. Almost half of these criminal acts were committed by non-resident foreigners, which is why one hears reference in casual talk to "criminal tourists."

Sometimes, the data sounds too good to be true. In 1993, not a single armed robbery was reported in Geneva.
More: http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/artic...ime-swiss.html

Quote:
* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp


Posted this in another thread.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:39 AM #271
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:11 AM #272
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:31 AM #273
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Here is the scary one.


That bombing was the result of gun control.
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