[Kazer]

Alex is the man. ^

[smokeage]

Oh sweet Jesus....

Jack's designs on the inside and Alex's design on the outside. Please make this happen!!!

[insixdays777]

I hope the next marker from Alien will be more focused on the highend ND quality milling ,fit and finish...the invasion is a wonderful marker but lacks in ergonomics and finish.

My ND is still the best shooting marker I own...yes ever on top of my clone Gt and ego 11 with Dart kit.
.
Funny my 2010 ND came stock with "heavy bolt/rammer" back in 09....for lower LPR prrssure and smoother shot...That is what the "new" PE dart kit is/does just 3 years behind....or I should say light years behind

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by insixdays777

...the invasion is a wonderful marker but lacks in ergonomics and finish.

OK - I do get it - but it is under $600 for highest performance available... thought that would be very ...wanted

Originally Posted by insixdays777

... just 3 years behind....or I should say light years behind

Thank you.
Look back at our bolt in 05 and you will also see the cut on the top that they now use. Look at the way they flowed their air to the LPR until '08 - I think is was - and then see how it's now done, like our '06. We had direct mounted solenoids before anyone else - back in '05 and I think it took them 3 years to adapt those too.
Used to make me just so nuts that so many said we were a copy of them, when so much is the other way around, now only makes me a little nuts
The fact that the solenoids "twin flow control devices" aren't an insult to every players intelligence is a mystery to me.
Maybe you could justify the backwards control - less exhaust for slower speed - except we drilled different sized holes to see - - didn't have a perceptible difference. But intellectually the theory works. But!!! Forwards??? Limit the flow and you then have to up the LPR. It's like they said "Let's add a feature that decreases the guns performance and advertise it - big time - and paintball players are so stupid they will accept it"
At least no one asked me to put it in a Alien gun after it was out and most understood what it did - or should I say didn't do.

[MstrKey]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

OK - I do get it - but it is under $600 for highest performance available... thought that would be very ...wanted

Thank you.
Look back at our bolt in 05 and you will also see the cut on the top that they now use. Look at the way they flowed their air to the LPR until '08 - I think is was - and then see how it's now done, like our '06. We had direct mounted solenoids before anyone else - back in '05 and I think it took them 3 years to adapt those too.
Used to make me just so nuts that so many said we were a copy of them, when so much is the other way around, now only makes me a little nuts
The fact that the solenoids "twin flow control devices" aren't an insult to every players intelligence is a mystery to me.
Maybe you could justify the backwards control - less exhaust for slower speed - except we drilled different sized holes to see - - didn't have a perceptible difference. But intellectually the theory works. But!!! Forwards??? Limit the flow and you then have to up the LPR. It's like they said "Let's add a feature that decreases the guns performance and advertise it - big time - and paintball players are so stupid they will accept it"
At least no one asked me to put it in a Alien gun after it was out and most understood what it did - or should I say didn't do.

Well I know we'd all like to see the same quality precision milling on cheaper guns but.......deep down inside I don't think anyone really expects it for the price. I know I don't. I think only the appearance and anno finish really need to be improved on the cheaper guns. They're nice but that extra bit might make them POP a bit more. Check out the dangerous power guns...I'm not sure what type of dust finish they put on their guns but I like it. Even though they have visible milling marks on their guns, the finish still presents it well.

As for the solenoid control flow........I always thought that was a laugh. They've had the same thing on the Luxes too....and in the end everyone just sets them up the same. On a gun with an LPR you can do the same thing just by retuning.....no need for adjustable ports. Oh well.....people will buy anything if you present it properly and PE does that.

Yup I stand behind my earlier posting. It's all in the details. A new milling design to break up the lines and a nicer finish.

[insixdays777]

I have a ego 11 with dart kit. Its a fine gun...its now smooth shooter...still shoots with very classic PE agressive rammer speed. I like it. GREAT ergonomics, great finish and milling.

Is it better than my ND in how it shoots? No. Its still not a smooth...much closer now to ND with the dart kit though. Ergonomics are a wash between the guns. Fit and finish are equal.
Its is like PE is fighting with themselves. They keep ego platform based on high LPR pressures like it 2003 and everybody still wants to shoot 30+ bps and then they over engineer ways to slow down the rammer and try to get a smoother shot but they go about it not by focusing on lpr pressure and flow characteristic but trying to find ways to starve the noid. It does work on some levels but its really a long way to get there.


Jack's way is so much more elegant, logical and simple. Focus on low LPR pressue and flow form the ground up.

Anyway enough about PE trying to out physics professor themselves....

NEW ND:

Keep 80% same ergonomics
Reverse the rammer housing noid mount so that it faces up. Place noid behind bolt (think angel)
Remove exposed bolt pin. Use tooless removable cover to cover bolt and enclosed noid housing(think rainmaker bolt cover)
Noid is no longer in grip. You now have and enclosed bolt poppet.
Use area where noid was to pipe for gas through lines.
Smaller board and rechargeable battery would allow room for internal gas lines in grip.
Keep the 4eyes and OLED.
Keep the bolt and use the heavy 2010 rammer with the derlin and rubber dampeners
Keep the ND LPR....no schrader valve lpr.

Make in USA. Sell for 1275.00.

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by insixdays777

I have a ego 11 with dart kit... Is it better than my ND in how it shoots? No. Its still not a smooth...

NEW ND:

Keep 80% same ergonomics Just I hope I save the right 80%
Reverse the rammer housing noid mount so that it faces up. Place noid behind bolt (think angel) Not feeling that
Remove exposed bolt pin. Use tooless removable cover to cover bolt and enclosed noid housing(think rainmaker bolt cover)Not that one either

... gas through lines.Yes
Keep... OLED.
Keep the bolt and use the heavy 2010 rammer with the derlin and rubber dampeners Yes

Make in USA. Sell for 1275.00 Yes, to USA, maybe don't have to charge quite that much - but thank you for the confidence

[Vegard]

Will it be more pleasing to the eye than previous releases?

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by Vegard

Will it be more pleasing to the eye than previous releases?

Fully milled body. I certainly hope you will like it - however it should be added that I think the '09-11 Indy's are quite good looking. Invasion has a more value milled body. Think a trimmer, sleeker Indy... except for the price

[firefoxx04]

i havnt even read the post but THANK YOU MY GOD for letting me know before i dumped a **** ton of cash into a clone or a victory. i love both but id rather try the new ND.

[MstrKey]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

Fully milled body. I certainly hope you will like it - however it should be added that I think the '09-11 Indy's are quite good looking. Invasion has a more value milled body. Think a trimmer, sleeker Indy... except for the price

You know..........we forum guys aren't above seeing some milling ideas and giving input

[l1ryan1l]

wow.. now i have to start saving haha....

[firefoxx04]

ive been saving, now i know what i will be getting.

Jack, sign me up.

[spypaintball]

Originally Posted by l1ryan1l

wow.. now i have to start saving haha....

Originally Posted by firefoxx04

ive been saving, now i know what i will be getting.

Jack, sign me up.

I'm with both of u and also sign me up Jack

[firefoxx04]

I was really hoping to buy a new gun before NPPL chicago, idk if the new gun will be released by then but one can hope

[Jack Rice]

Originally Posted by MstrKey

You know..........we forum guys aren't above seeing some milling ideas and giving input

... still working on it - I (we) will be happy to look at any ideas, please understand that if I get ideas half will probably be "more aggressive lines - deeper cuts than Indy" and half will be "smooth as possible"
We are already going with smaller, tighter, sleeker than Invasion. One thing I will keep is the deeper height on the bottle adapter as it really does make for a more comfortable feel... the distance between the bottom of the trigger guard and the bottle.

[MstrKey]

Originally Posted by Jack Rice

... still working on it - I (we) will be happy to look at any ideas, please understand that if I get ideas half will probably be "more aggressive lines - deeper cuts than Indy" and half will be "smooth as possible"
We are already going with smaller, tighter, sleeker than Invasion. One thing I will keep is the deeper height on the bottle adapter as it really does make for a more comfortable feel... the distance between the bottom of the trigger guard and the bottle.

You're probably right, that the added space(like on the invasion grip frame) is more comfortable but I'd rather see that large dead spot taken out myself. If someone doesn't buy the gun because of an ugly flat spot......then how it performs won't matter. At least find a way to make it less visible

Milling I'm not too picky on. For the sake of your sales though and regardless of the complexity, break up the lines. Make the grip frame, body and ram housing appear as one piece. Not three pieces stuck together. I think if you do that, the rest of the design will be appealing no matter what it consists of.

Oh yes that reminds me......you need to be able to turn the air off with the tank on the gun For use lazy old guys who leave the gun together when it's not in use lol.

[insixdays777]

The most important ergonomic aspect of a marker is its grip to front regulator distance IMHO. Jack please keep these the same as the current ND.

Its the wider stance that so many players love. The ND, Luxe and Macdev guns get this. The ability to be able to wrap your thumb around the reg and place it in that nice 1inch space between the reg and the trigger guard is perfect.

I am sure you are but please keep the super low feedneck also.

I would also prefer spring detents. I believe they last much longer, and since they push into themselves and not forward in to a bolt, they allow for even less resistance for the bolt to overcome - and slightly smoother. I have spring detents in some old angels and cockers that are over 10yrs old and still going strong.

and really round ALL edges that can be touched. - my only minor tweek about the ND is that I wish the edges of the space between the reg and trigger guard were rounded. (you can guess how I feel about the invasions front sharp corners under the LPR)

At least you wont have to do R&D on the valve, rammer and bolt...I really dont think there is much that can be improved when it comes to shot characteristics.

I like the heavy cut milling....to me is Alien....everyone else is going smooth...I say stick with cut up galactic battleship look.

Since its christmas time ND wish list....

Color: A dust Olive(Army Green)/Black or Olive with Brown accents would be awesome for us Big game - woods ballers.

[firefoxx04]

^ YES!

the space between the trigger guard and the vertical regulator is the main reason i use my ND over my other guns. When i got ahold of a 6gr (right after they came out) I also had my 08 indy. Both guns fit my hands so well that I have not been able to truly like any other gun.

I tried a luxe and that as well fits really well with how long it is.


the ND milling looks awesome, not sure why some people say they dont like it.


Oled, critical trigger, spring loaded detents, hoseless - that would make me happy The spring detents in Dangerous Power guns (excluding the fx.. i hate that thing) are spring loaded and work well. I have had all of them and never had a detent issue.


Anno - I like glossy colors but the black and platinum matte/dust on my indy is nice. Nothing beats the 08 i had though, that thing was SICK.

[specopsdeath2]

Originally Posted by firefoxx04

^ YES!

the space between the trigger guard and the vertical regulator is the main reason i use my ND over my other guns. When i got ahold of a 6gr (right after they came out) I also had my 08 indy. Both guns fit my hands so well that I have not been able to truly like any other gun.

I tried a luxe and that as well fits really well with how long it is.


the ND milling looks awesome, not sure why some people say they dont like it.


Oled, critical trigger, spring loaded detents, hoseless - that would make me happy The spring detents in Dangerous Power guns (excluding the fx.. i hate that thing) are spring loaded and work well. I have had all of them and never had a detent issue.


Anno - I like glossy colors but the black and platinum matte/dust on my indy is nice. Nothing beats the 08 i had though, that thing was SICK.

That was my 08 Indy and my G6R

I agree with what was said above. If the distance between grip frame and HPR stays the same, rounded edges (honestly do not have ANY problems with the ND's edges), hoseless (already stated by you Jack), Low feedneck, I will be incredibly happy.

Im not picky on detents, I could care less. your the designer and owner, you do what you think is best because I sure as hell don't know whats best .

Im extremely excited about this thing. I love Macro-less, and was really close to picking up an invasion but im waiting for this thing. Cant wait to hear more on this from you Jack

[firefoxx04]

it was MY indy and your g6r


edit: my phone is horrible..