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Old 11-25-2012, 12:53 PM #1198
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Here's a peak:
You of all people should know that ALL of these things were true at the time that was written.

Regardless, if all of those things occur because faith in what was always untrue has vanished then we are ****ed from the onset.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:22 PM #1199
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You of all people should know that ALL of these things were true at the time that was written.

Regardless, if all of those things occur because faith in what was always untrue has vanished then we are ****ed from the onset.
They probably were. I did say that it is probably a chronicle of dying civilizations. Then again, you or I could be projecting.

The idea, is that all (successful) civilizations are built on some sort of faith and conception of God. Even this country, while never explicitly Christian, has been operating primarily on Christianity for the majority of its existence.

The way that I see it and understand the **** I posted is simple. When the faith that builds a society recedes, decline and collapse sets in.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:52 PM #1200
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When the faith that builds a society recedes, decline and collapse sets in.
Just curious, but why do you think that is? (Jumping in way late so sorry if this has been addressed)
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:10 PM #1201
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Just curious, but why do you think that is? (Jumping in way late so sorry if this has been addressed)
I suspect that it is because of a loss of identity. Typically, whatever the "metaphysical" is perceived to be translates into culture which begins to influence art and behavior. It goes so far as to shape social structure. Usually based on some conception of an Objective order (cosmic->mundane). The ultimate destiny of each man, according to whatever the society believes, dictates their place.

Things don't have to be this way, it just so happens that this is, for whatever reason, the way it goes. It seems that all methods of discovery and systems of knowledge have their life cycles.

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Old 11-26-2012, 08:57 AM #1202
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I wouldn't jump there yet.
They found trace amounts of methane already, however, later samples have not provided the same results. Amino acids have been found on asteroids... I don't see it as a far fetched idea. Guess we'll find out early December.

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Organic compounds, not life.

Curiosity can't detect life itself, only the chemicals that we understand are required for it.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:55 PM #1203
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I may be wrong, but I thought the methane thing was actually later concluded to have merely been from air that had stow away from Earth. There was an article anyway.

And I thought the amino acid on asteroids was found false as well. Again, I could be wrong, but I feel like I read this somewhere.

Anyway though, whatever it is that has these guys so excited has to be pretty fascinating, although it will likely take some explaining on their part to bring the true significance of the discovery to light. Can't wait though.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:27 PM #1204
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I suspect that it is because of a loss of identity. Typically, whatever the "metaphysical" is perceived to be translates into culture which begins to influence art and behavior. It goes so far as to shape social structure. Usually based on some conception of an Objective order (cosmic->mundane). The ultimate destiny of each man, according to whatever the society believes, dictates their place.

Things don't have to be this way, it just so happens that this is, for whatever reason, the way it goes. It seems that all methods of discovery and systems of knowledge have their life cycles.
So, then, what would a society look like without that faith-identity? Do you believe people would be different or simply find that identity in something else?

To answer the questions myself:
If this collapse cycle is something we want to prevent (although I'm not sure it is), the solution is obvious; stop the dependency on faith for a cultural identity. But how this is done, I am not sure of. Either it must be replaced with something else that creates our cultural identity, e.g., science, secular humanism, or perhaps something else (if you have ideas, I'm interested), or we must fundamentally change. I'm not sure how that fundamental change would be done. Agree/disagree?

P.S. I recognize that this is an atheist thread of which I do not fit. If anyone would prefer me to not post in here, just lmk. I don't think this is an issue, but just want to be courteous to anyone that might.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:57 PM #1205
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P.S. I recognize that this is an atheist thread of which I do not fit. If anyone would prefer me to not post in here, just lmk. I don't think this is an issue, but just want to be courteous to anyone that might.
Get out of here with your blasphemies!
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:03 PM #1206
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I may be wrong, but I thought the methane thing was actually later concluded to have merely been from air that had stow away from Earth. There was an article anyway.

And I thought the amino acid on asteroids was found false as well. Again, I could be wrong, but I feel like I read this somewhere.

Anyway though, whatever it is that has these guys so excited has to be pretty fascinating, although it will likely take some explaining on their part to bring the true significance of the discovery to light. Can't wait though.
You're right on the methane portion, but as for the amino acids... I have not seen anything that discounts that data. Either way, I think it highly likely that the components consistent with carbon-based life forms will be found outside of earth. Statistically it makes sense. Will there be sentient life forms found in our lifetime? I don't know, but with overpopulation becoming a real issue, I see this as the next frontier (old cliche).
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:14 PM #1207
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So, then, what would a society look like without that faith-identity? Do you believe people would be different or simply find that identity in something else?

To answer the questions myself:
If this collapse cycle is something we want to prevent (although I'm not sure it is), the solution is obvious; stop the dependency on faith for a cultural identity. But how this is done, I am not sure of. Either it must be replaced with something else that creates our cultural identity, e.g., science, secular humanism, or perhaps something else (if you have ideas, I'm interested), or we must fundamentally change. I'm not sure how that fundamental change would be done. Agree/disagree?

P.S. I recognize that this is an atheist thread of which I do not fit. If anyone would prefer me to not post in here, just lmk. I don't think this is an issue, but just want to be courteous to anyone that might.
Hard to say what such a society would look like. Identity is compounded. Primarily, race, is the first block in the pyramid. Even similar ideas about "god" or whatever are given a twist/insight depending on which group you are looking at. Take Horus vs. Odin as a good example. Actually Norse and Egyptian theology is very similar and worth looking at for a good perspective. Contrary to what is accepted, both were, in fact, monist systems.

A non-metaphysical example is probably Social Contract theory. Though there are no good examples of such a beginning EVER happening. There is a big push to make national identity a set of political agreements, national identity henceforth becoming tabula rasa, if you will. So far it is incredibly unstable, everywhere it has been attempted. This sort of addressed your solution.

So I guess I'll say I disagree. Primarily because every ideology is faith based. Also, I don't think you can stop the degeneration of society. It's merely a matter of how resilient the culture is (when faced with internal and external pressures).
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:35 PM #1208
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Hard to say what such a society would look like. Identity is compounded. Primarily, race, is the first block in the pyramid. Even similar ideas about "god" or whatever are given a twist/insight depending on which group you are looking at. Take Horus vs. Odin as a good example. Actually Norse and Egyptian theology is very similar and worth looking at for a good perspective. Contrary to what is accepted, both were, in fact, monist systems.

A non-metaphysical example is probably Social Contract theory. Though there are no good examples of such a beginning EVER happening. There is a big push to make national identity a set of political agreements, national identity henceforth becoming tabula rasa, if you will. So far it is incredibly unstable, everywhere it has been attempted. This sort of addressed your solution.

So I guess I'll say I disagree. Primarily because every ideology is faith based. Also, I don't think you can stop the degeneration of society. It's merely a matter of how resilient the culture is (when faced with internal and external pressures).
Gotcha. I'll have to think about this for a bit.

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Old 11-26-2012, 04:53 PM #1209
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A non-metaphysical example is probably Social Contract theory. Though there are no good examples of such a beginning EVER happening. There is a big push to make national identity a set of political agreements, national identity henceforth becoming tabula rasa, if you will. So far it is incredibly unstable, everywhere it has been attempted. This sort of addressed your solution.
It's difficult to base these conjectures on history; it seems to me we're in a vastly unprecedented position due primarily to an incredible rate of technological advancement. Things as basic as the way we communicate are changing on the scale of decades, if not years.

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So I guess I'll say I disagree. Primarily because every ideology is faith based.
Thus far. Again, we're in uncharted territory here - the prospect of a stable non faith-based ideology hardly seems unthinkable.

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Also, I don't think you can stop the degeneration of society. It's merely a matter of how resilient the culture is (when faced with internal and external pressures).
¯\(°_o)/¯ Seems like really far flung conjecture.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:22 PM #1210
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It's difficult to base these conjectures on history; it seems to me we're in a vastly unprecedented position due primarily to an incredible rate of technological advancement. Things as basic as the way we communicate are changing on the scale of decades, if not years.



Thus far. Again, we're in uncharted territory here - the prospect of a stable non faith-based ideology hardly seems infeasible.



¯\(°_o)/¯ Seems like really far flung conjecture.
I'm not comfortable with the that we live in a time where history is inapplicable. Simply because the access to cheap and efficient energy allows for unprecedented technological growth? Sorry but the human being has not fundamentally changed, societies still interact with each other in a primitive manner, though the methods may be called advanced (telecommunication blah blah).

If anything, there is a developing attitude that the physical is all there is - this attitude is fast becoming dogmatic and religious in nature. This isn't a bad thing, but, it has so far failed to produce an ontology that differs significantly from the regional religion it is an apostate of.
That is tragic.

Far flung conjecture if you think civilizations don't undergo periods of growth and decay. Greece, Rome, Egypt, China the examples are everywhere.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:28 PM #1211
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I'm not comfortable with the that we live in a time where history is inapplicable. Simply because the access to cheap and efficient energy allows for unprecedented technological growth? Sorry but the human being has not fundamentally changed, societies still interact with each other in a primitive manner, though the methods may be called advanced (telecommunication blah blah).
I never said it was inapplicable. My point was only to urge caution in making generalizations. And I think you might be downplaying both the risks and benefits of our capability to communicate over long distances, quickly, and to nearly anyone. It is easy to overlook how different the world would have seemed to someone living just a century or two ago because we are relatively accustomed to these things.

And our ability to communicate is only one facet of the changes technology has wrought upon us. The methods and scale in which we travel, grow food, wage war, and many others have changed drastically. Call them primitive if you'd like, but all are hugely different from any other point in history.

Perhaps (and I would probably agree) we haven't changed much. But it would be ridiculous to neglect the massive changes in the tools with which we interact with the world, and the potential influence those changes might have in the way cultures rise and fall. Your position seems to completely ignore them.

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Far flung conjecture if you think civilizations don't undergo periods of growth and decay. Greece, Rome, Egypt, China the examples are everywhere.
By far flung I mean you're projecting pretty far off the decline of western civilization. Yeah, western nations are in a fiscal crisis, Honey Boo Boo is on the History channel, but western civilization as we know it is still only expanding. It has even begun to permeate the far east.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:28 AM #1212
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I never said it was inapplicable. My point was only to urge caution in making generalizations. And I think you might be downplaying both the risks and benefits of our capability to communicate over long distances, quickly, and to nearly anyone. It is easy to overlook how different the world would have seemed to someone living just a century or two ago because we are relatively accustomed to these things.

And our ability to communicate is only one facet of the changes technology has wrought upon us. The methods and scale in which we travel, grow food, wage war, and many others have changed drastically. Call them primitive if you'd like, but all are hugely different from any other point in history.

Perhaps (and I would probably agree) we haven't changed much. But it would be ridiculous to neglect the massive changes in the tools with which we interact with the world, and the potential influence those changes might have in the way cultures rise and fall. Your position seems to completely ignore them.



By far flung I mean you're projecting pretty far off the decline of western civilization. Yeah, western nations are in a fiscal crisis, Honey Boo Boo is on the History channel, but western civilization as we know it is still only expanding. It has even begun to permeate the far east.
Having lived with such technological advances, we should have a sober view on them, much more than people in the 50s and 60s. In my observation, the world is the same as it always has been. On that note.....

I said that the way civilizations deal with each other is primitive. The means they use to deal with each other (communication, war) are sophisticated. The individuals themselves are fairly sophisticated. But, fundamentally, the interaction between any number of civilizations remains unchanged. Hell look at democracies, the discourse in party politics can hardly be called sophisticated. That's just group vs group within a civilization.

I try to ignore the tools because it really is all about their wielder. A hammer can be destructive, creative or lay idle. It seems, that no matter how sophisticated our tools have gotten, humans haven't changed. We still employ these increasingly sophisticated tools to do the same things weve done for thousands of years. Going back to communication, we have gotten more sophisticated in the means we transmit words to each other. however we still sit here using an arguably imperfect method of transmitting thought.

Yes I'm calling the decline of western civilization early. Our influence is over extended. It would take a miracle to save the European Union. American global hegemony is on its way out the door. Demographic changes in Western nations means the populations inhereting these countries are not the same as the ones who built them. Demographic change is the big one.

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Old 12-05-2012, 04:38 PM #1213
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Did too much Harry Potter finally poison your mind against God?

Edit: For real though, what's this about?
Alas, I believe in the Almighty Dumbledore...

Seriously though, I still believe in a certain spirituality of the self and humanity as a whole, but it seems less and less likely that it's specifically governed by a deity of sorts rather than the universe as a whole. Instead of God, the universe. Instead of the Bible, the sky and stars. Instead of faith, perseverance and knowledge. I technically wouldn't go so far as to say I don't believe in anything, so I can't be considered agnostic by any means. Rather just a shift from a deity to everything.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:09 AM #1214
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:41 PM #1215
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Alas, I believe in the Almighty Dumbledore...

Seriously though, I still believe in a certain spirituality of the self and humanity as a whole, but it seems less and less likely that it's specifically governed by a deity of sorts rather than the universe as a whole. Instead of God, the universe. Instead of the Bible, the sky and stars. Instead of faith, perseverance and knowledge. I technically wouldn't go so far as to say I don't believe in anything, so I can't be considered agnostic by any means. Rather just a shift from a deity to everything.
Do you still believe in an afterlife?
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:33 PM #1216
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Seriously though, I still believe in a certain spirituality of the self and humanity as a whole, but it seems less and less likely that it's specifically governed by a deity of sorts rather than the universe as a whole. Instead of God, the universe. Instead of the Bible, the sky and stars. Instead of faith, perseverance and knowledge. I technically wouldn't go so far as to say I don't believe in anything, so I can't be considered agnostic by any means. Rather just a shift from a deity to everything.

I knew you'd come around someday. Atta boy!
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:40 PM #1217
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Do you still believe in an afterlife?
No idea. The idea of reincarnation has appeared in conversations randomly the past few weeks, though that's doubtful. I'd like to think there's some sort of afterlife so I could get a grade on how I lived. Just for ****s and giggles though, really.

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I knew you'd come around someday. Atta boy!
Yea, I still don't like you lol. Similar in ideology or not, you're still a dick.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:39 PM #1218
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Interesting news from the Mars rover.


http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-ne...s-mum-for-now/
We ever find out what this was about? Anything been confirmed?
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