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Old 12-07-2012, 01:50 AM #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmaxham View Post
my breech delay is at 6ms. im wondering if it needs to be lower? im thinking the last ball comes down and bounces up then is pinched between the top of the bolt and the feed neck. because when paint breaks on the bolt. its always at the top of the bolt, never the bottom.

Bolt return was dialed in using the on board tunning.
I believe the breech delay is supposed to be at 8ms. If the breech delay is to low that would cause the eyes to think that the bolt is a ball loaded while its returning and allow the last ball that dosent have the force of the loader to chop. Turn the breech delay up to 8ms. That should do it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:52 AM #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juggernaught_lives View Post
bump it up to 8 and test
ight, ill test it out sunday. currently im out of paint and air. thank you for all the suggestions! ill try and find an allen key that fits that top hat now..... ud think a gun in this price range would have a key for the reg......

also, wtf is up with vapors going for 850$ these days? you buy a vap, shoot it once, and it looses 800$ in value. did the value tank because of the hate on spurlock?
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:04 AM #780
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Value went bad for two reasons. One some people getting them and selling them for dirty cheap(dosent do any one a favor) two the v1s like in all guns have had issues here and there. I do think as machine is very quick to fix the little issues that the guns prices are rising again as more and more of the vapors will be working great and people at fields will see that. And once you shoot a working vapor it leaves a taste in the mouth so good you will never want to use anything else. I have personally talked with machine and told them they need to include a nice allen key set in the box. The packaging content of the Dangerous Power G5 Kickes the crap out of machines contents in the vapor box. I know people argue it comes with a barrel kit and a nice case and 2 trigger. But why not spend the 2 dollars extra on a sweet ball tip allen key set!. I guess they thought they didnt need it but i guess we are that petty that we want gold covered allen keys that actually fit the top hat lol.

Do the paintball community a favor. Get the little issue with the gun fixed then dont let it go until you get offered 2 luxes. Then the prices will go back up
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:21 AM #781
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well I got this baby brand new for 1.1k so the price drop is reasonable for me, but I highly doubt this things value is going to increase much if any until the hopper drops. Then this bad boy could possibly trade for a decent price. I moved to this from a v3 invert mini that I fully upgraded. and boy is this vap looking like a waist of money in comparison. I no v1 and v2 minis made them the laughing stock of speed ball fields for reliability, but my v3 with lurker bolt, freak kit, and virtue board has had no mechanical issues whatsoever, and I have never broken a single ball (even a bad batch of evil tourney grade shot through this without a brake but chopped like hell in the vap and all my friends guns.) with +- 5 over the crono. i spent 220 on getting that gun brand new, and its making a 1650$ gun wet the bed. I'm hoping after I get every single kink out of this gun it will be amazing and i am in love with the way it feels and looks, but this thing felt like it wanted to hate me out of the box.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:31 AM #782
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What Dwell do you guys run your Vapor at?

Tried the Tune Assist, but it's pretty hard to tell when the marker is making it's full cycle for 3 times. I think it was already at 10.

Thanks guys!
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:52 AM #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vissa View Post
What Dwell do you guys run your Vapor at?

Tried the Tune Assist, but it's pretty hard to tell when the marker is making it's full cycle for 3 times. I think it was already at 10.

Thanks guys!
you should change your firing mode before running Tune Assist
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:37 AM #784
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Then again, pretty hard to tell if it's a good cycle. It quickly makes a loud puff en the puff is getting louder everytime the dwell goes up by one.

So just for comparison, what's the average dwell here you guys run at?
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:00 AM #785
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10/11 seems to work well for me. no FSDO and shot is consistant
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:18 AM #786
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Think I'll be running mine @ 11 for this weekend. Let's see if indoor goes better than last weeks outdoor in the freezing cold.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:26 PM #787
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Ive been running mine at 10. But the higher the dwell the smoother and softer on paint it will be. Lose air efficiency tho.

wmaxham: The feather touch screw in the back is a great feature of the vapor. You can make this gun shoot how ever you would like it to. You can adjust the dwell and feather touch and shoot the most brittle paint around if you would like.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:04 PM #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmaxham View Post
Has any one had consistency issues with there vapor? ... +-10 ...

also, iv noticed when the last 3 balls are being shot, one brakes. ...

and last thing, if i have the v2 flat face bolt, would it be better to get the v1 cup faced bolt or the pooty flat face?...

and has anyone tried lurker lube in a vapor?
Up your dwell by 2ms and lower your input pressure; it sounds like your solenoid is governing your FPS instead of the volume in the shot chamber. You want the bolt to stay forward for as long as possible so it vents ALL of the air in the shot chamber.

change your breech delay to 4ms and tell me what happens.

If you're using large bore paint, V1 is way better. Small-bore; go with a pooty bolt. I'm working on a bolt of my own, but I need someone who's a pro on the lathe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourPBfriend View Post
Now that you mention that i had to dig through my HUGE pile of allen keys to try and find one that fit the allen key. I mean pull it all apart and wipe the orings and lube them again. Really need to get into that top hat. I will try and figure out what size allen key that is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXR1mK3EmE0

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmaxham View Post
my breech delay is at 6ms...
try 4 to start, if there's no improvement, bump it up to 8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourPBfriend View Post
If you are referring to the bolt guide having wear on it i believe all of them get that. ...I even refer to him on my website in the vapor description lol
the bolt guide orings are means to free-float on the bolt guide so they seal up better with a looser fitment. If you run a pooty bolt, they'll be squished a little more (which will prevent wear on the bolt guide). It's normal for shocker/luxe/vapor bolt designs.

And thankies bud

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmaxham View Post
...ud think a gun in this price range would have a key for the reg......

also, wtf is up with vapors going for 850$ these days? you buy a vap, shoot it once, and it looses 800$ in value. did the value tank because of the hate on spurlock?
well....really, Machine doesn't want people touching that screw, because it can cause so many issues if not set properly. It's a set it and forget it sort of deal, so I'm not surprised they made it in a different size.

As for price, Vapor's CAN resell for around $1,200 without a problem ($1,300 even trade value). The problem is that most of these idiots have guns, but need money....and as you know, PbN's user base is comprised mostly of 14 year old kids without jobs. This means that to sell a marker, you need to either A: accept trades + cash, or B: settle for pawn-shop prices. If I were to sell my vapor RIGHT NOW on Ebay, I could easily get $1,300 cash for it, no questions asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourPBfriend View Post
Value went bad for two reasons. One some people getting them and selling them for dirty cheap (dosent do any one a favor)...

Do the paintball community a favor. Get the little issue with the gun fixed then dont let it go until you get offered 2 luxes. Then the prices will go back up
^^What he said

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmaxham View Post
well I got this baby brand new for 1.1k so the price drop is reasonable for me, but I highly doubt this things value is going to increase much if any until the hopper drops. ...
Can't stand mini's....too small for my hands xD

That being said, I have a threshold that'll outshoot EVERY modern marker. when people dry-fire it, they swear it's not chrono'ing, but once you put paint in it, it's shooting 310.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vissa View Post
What Dwell do you guys run your Vapor at?

Tried the Tune Assist, but it's pretty hard to tell when the marker is making it's full cycle for 3 times. I think it was already at 10.
It's supposed to cycle 3 times in a row to show consistency. You want the marker to fire fully, without choking on the second and third shots.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about, set your dwell to 14 and forget about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourPBfriend View Post
Ive been running mine at 10. But the higher the dwell the smoother and softer on paint it will be. Lose air efficiency tho.

wmaxham: The feather touch screw in the back is a great feature of the vapor. You can make this gun shoot how ever you would like it to. You can adjust the dwell and feather touch and shoot the most brittle paint around if you would like.

most vapors seem to work between 10 and 14 nicely, so I tell people to set it to 15 and then chrono down to where the marker works best.

FT screw is a gift and a curse; it should be about 3/4 to a full turn out from tight, otherwise it'll cause the marker to see the bolt and think it's paint in the breech (and that'll cause the marker to double-fire)
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:06 PM #789
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:16 PM #790
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What this guy said!
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:35 PM #791
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Does anybody ever tested what one millisecond in dwell does to the air efficiency?

Like, what's the difference in ball count between let's say 10 or 14 millisecond?

I know on the DM series it really doesn't matter if the dwell is 18 or 24, efficiency wise it's a couple of balls. Not talking about pods. Curious how that works out on the Vapor.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:46 PM #792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vissa View Post
Does anybody ever tested what one millisecond in dwell does to the air efficiency?

Like, what's the difference in ball count between let's say 10 or 14 millisecond?

I know on the DM series it really doesn't matter if the dwell is 18 or 24, efficiency wise it's a couple of balls. Not talking about pods. Curious how that works out on the Vapor.
Ill bring some field grade paint tomorrow and test that out.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:20 AM #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vissa View Post
Does anybody ever tested what one millisecond in dwell does to the air efficiency?

Like, what's the difference in ball count between let's say 10 or 14 millisecond?

I know on the DM series it really doesn't matter if the dwell is 18 or 24, efficiency wise it's a couple of balls. Not talking about pods. Curious how that works out on the Vapor.
The reason that dwell range works on a DM is because the end of the bolt seals off the shot chamber from the fill port (that's what those two orings on the tail of the bolt do). In the case you stated, the chamber is emptied at 18ms, so you can set your dwell to 24 without seeing any difference at all (because the chamber is emptied by 18, and it just sits there, doing nothing, for an extra 6ms)

The vapor closes the shot chamber off too; there's a valve back behind the back-cap that seals it off. Slightly different means, but it functions all the same....Let's assume that at a dwell of 11ms the entire chamber is fully emptied.


So for an 11ms dwell, the valve is fully emptied, and you'll chrono 290 (very low variance, +-3)

If you up your dwell to 12ms, you'll see no difference because the valve is still fully emptied and no air is filling in. same story for 13ms, 14ms....etc.

BUT If you drop your dwell down to 10ms (and the valve doesn't empty all the way), you should see a slight drop in fps (286ish) and the consistency will to go down...think +-9. You'll have to run a higher pressure in order to chrono 290.

If you keep dropping your dwell down to 9ms, you'll probably see a chrono drop to 270ish and the consistency will go to hell (+-12)

This is why in my tuning guide I suggest setting an absurdly high dwell to start off, then chrono'ing, and then re-adjusting your dwell so you get the same chrono-range with the lowest pressure possible

...also note, if you're seeing consistency issues, make sure you're use a FRESH duracell 9volt. Don't use any other brand, and be careful with Li-ion batteries as they tend to run a little hot (faster discharge rate)
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Last edited by ProMod : 12-08-2012 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:30 AM #794
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Quote:
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The reason that dwell range works on a DM is because the end of the bolt seals off the shot chamber from the fill port (that's what those two orings on the tail of the bolt do). In the case you stated, the chamber is emptied at 18ms, so you can set your dwell to 24 without seeing any difference at all (because the chamber is emptied by 18, and it just sits there, doing nothing, for an extra 6ms)

The vapor closes the shot chamber off too; there's a valve back behind the back-cap that seals it off. Slightly different means, but it functions all the same....Let's assume that at a dwell of 11ms the entire chamber is fully emptied.


So for an 11ms dwell, the valve is fully emptied, and you'll chrono 290 (very low variance, +-3)

If you up your dwell to 12ms, you'll see no difference because the valve is still fully emptied and no air is filling in. same story for 13ms, 14ms....etc.

BUT If you drop your dwell down to 10ms (and the valve doesn't empty all the way), you should see a slight drop in fps (286ish) and the consistency will to go down...think +-9. You'll have to run a higher pressure in order to chrono 290.

If you keep dropping your dwell down to 9ms, you'll probably see a chrono drop to 270ish and the consistency will go to hell (+-12)

This is why in my tuning guide I suggest setting an absurdly high dwell to start off, then chrono'ing, and then re-adjusting your dwell so you get the same chrono-range with the lowest pressure possible

...also note, if you're seeing consistency issues, make sure you're use a FRESH duracell 9volt. Don't use any other brand, and be careful with Li-ion batteries as they tend to run a little hot (faster discharge rate)
OK so this may be a noob question but why would the battery give it the consistency issues?
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:33 AM #795
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OK so this may be a noob question but why would the battery give it the consistency issues?
not enough juice to charge the Solenoid. So Dwell goes out the window and consistency with it
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:36 AM #796
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^^That.

If there's not enough current to the noid, it won't open fast enough and it'll cause the marker to short-stroke or half-fire. This can lead to double-feeds, which most people say are chops
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:35 PM #797
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Promod, your PM box is full! So I'm posting it here:


Vapor Guru, I really need your advise!

Last Sunday and this one, the Vapor is only blowing up paint. First couple of shots are decent, then 99 out of the 100 balls blow up in the middle of the barrel, so no chops.

Today I tried so much stuff, like:

- Different types of paint
- Different bore sizes
- Clean / relubing bolt
- Dwell between 12 to 15
- Bolt return between 26 to 32
- Breach Delay between 4 and 8
- Feathertouch screw between 3/4 turn and 1 1/2 turn out from closed
- Checked detents, moving okay


People around me with GEO 3's, DM12's and clone GT's don't have problems shooting the different types of paint.

I'm getting really frustrated that I can't get this baby to work. I love the feeling of the marker, it's looks, but it has to shoot some paint without destroying it.

Hope you have anymore ideas I can try!

Thanks mate!
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:44 PM #798
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Promod, your PM box is full! So I'm posting it here:


Vapor Guru, I really need your advise!

Last Sunday and this one, the Vapor is only blowing up paint. First couple of shots are decent, then 99 out of the 100 balls blow up in the middle of the barrel, so no chops.

Today I tried so much stuff, like:

- Different types of paint
- Different bore sizes
- Clean / relubing bolt
- Dwell between 12 to 15
- Bolt return between 26 to 32
- Breach Delay between 4 and 8
- Feathertouch screw between 3/4 turn and 1 1/2 turn out from closed
- Checked detents, moving okay


People around me with GEO 3's, DM12's and clone GT's don't have problems shooting the different types of paint.

I'm getting really frustrated that I can't get this baby to work. I love the feeling of the marker, it's looks, but it has to shoot some paint without destroying it.

Hope you have anymore ideas I can try!

Thanks mate!
Check post 766.
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