Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

View Poll Results: As a whole, are unions needed?
Yes 32 40.00%
No 48 60.00%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-04-2012, 07:35 PM #148
benji25
Legen (wait for it) Dary
 
benji25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities
benji25 is a Moderator
benji25 is BST Trusted
benji25 donated to help Peyton Trent
benji25 is playing at Living Legends V
benji25 posts videos on PbNation
benji25 supports our troops
benji25 has perfected Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
I mean think about it on an evolutionary basis. Back in the 40's as your graph shows people were need more, people had to travel and suppliers were not as global. Now we have computers and emil, machines and robots replace expensive labor, there are cheap suppliers of manufacturing globally so it only stands to reason that wages are falling while profits are rising because there are some serious cost savings with the development of new technology.
benji25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 12-04-2012, 07:37 PM #149
licence2kill
POOP
 
licence2kill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Orange County
I think that's mostly correct. I think the best way to fix secular inequality is redistribution.
licence2kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 08:13 PM #150
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
I mean think about it on an evolutionary basis. Back in the 40's as your graph shows people were need more, people had to travel and suppliers were not as global. Now we have computers and emil, machines and robots replace expensive labor, there are cheap suppliers of manufacturing globally so it only stands to reason that wages are falling while profits are rising because there are some serious cost savings with the development of new technology.
Long story short, it's really bad for our economy. The people no longer have the money to buy enough goods to keep our economy running. We created artificial wealth (credit) but even that dried up. David Harvey's Crises of Captialism explains it best.

Not to mention the social implication of such great income inequality:


Even economically, all of those create unnecessary inefficiencies that weigh down the economy. Keynesian ditch-digging-and-refilling so to speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by licence2kill View Post
I think that's mostly correct. I think the best way to fix secular inequality is redistribution.
The way I see it there are two choices: Taxes (like Sweden) or Culture (like Japan). Both are corrective measures put in place to curb the natural income inequality that is inherent to markets. I prefer culture as there is less *****ing about it afterwords. Coercion or honor? I'll take honor.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 09:24 PM #151
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Good luck with that, the radical egalitarians won't stand for anything but plunder. Its a shame they don't see how similar they are to the French wack jobs that decided their best course of action was to lop of peoples heads en masse.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 09:38 PM #152
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Its a shame they don't see how similar they are to the French wack jobs that decided their best course of action was to lop of peoples heads en masse.
Which they? Proponents of redistribution of wealth or radical egalitarians? In what way are they like the French?
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 09:52 PM #153
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
The egalitarians. They take their cause and go well past overboard.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 10:18 PM #154
Nikilwig
Double Up
 
Nikilwig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Nikilwig plays in the PSP
Nikilwig is for the Gunfight
Nikilwig is for the Gunfight
Vikingshadow have you given any thought to working in a different school district or private schooling? Seems like there's a lot of bull**** standards that don't contribute from the effectiveness of your job. Are the costs of living relatively low where you live?
__________________
New England Avalanche

Have you shot a Vangaurd Demon yet?
Vanguard Demon | NXE | GI SPORTZ | Ninja Paintball | Warzone Paintball | Shadow Barrels | RAZA
Nikilwig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 10:54 PM #155
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
The egalitarians. They take their cause and go well past overboard.
How are they like the "French that lop off people's heads in mass"?
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 07:08 AM #156
vikingshadow
SCHWING!
 
vikingshadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Downtown
vikingshadow is a Moderator
 has been a member for 10 years
vikingshadow supports Team VICIOUS
vikingshadow supports Team VICIOUS
vikingshadow supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikilwig View Post
Vikingshadow have you given any thought to working in a different school district or private schooling? Seems like there's a lot of bull<del>****</del> standards that don't contribute from the effectiveness of your job. Are the costs of living relatively low where you live?
I have actually thought about this, but to be honest this is an attitude all across America at this point. And to move would mean leaving my kids behind (my wife and I aren't together anymore) and starting all over, learning new procedures and rules and such. Eventually, when my kids are out of school and moved on, maybe. And, before I give up teaching for good, I will try a different district first. Private school would be GREAT, if they paid a decent enough salary. Most private schools actually pay the same or less than what I get now, from what I understand.

The cost of living here is extremely high right now. A house like mine (3 bedroom, two bath with an attached garage) is going for about 1000/month rent - I pay 450.00. Food and gas have risen incredibly, but fortunately, entertainment venues are about the same as before. I'd say for our little town of about 30,000 in NW Oklahoma, our cost of living is out of control here due to the oil and natural gas boom going on. And salaries aren't raising to match it.
__________________

I'm selling all my paintball stuff! Look here! My Baby! Phantom Pump
vikingshadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 02:11 AM #157
tsbalr120
Goooonsberry
 
tsbalr120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cowbutt, AR
tsbalr120 is an NCPA player
tsbalr120 is Legendary


I lol'd and facepalmed at this.

Cali teachers, wut u doing. Sthap.
__________________
|NCPA: Razorbacks|
rip120
tsbalr120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:14 AM #158
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
How are they like the "French that lop off people's heads in mass"?
.

I want to have this discussion because I have seen quite a few misconceptions about the french revolution from several different posters and I feel a discussion would do us well.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:27 AM #159
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
Iamamartianchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
.

I want to have this discussion because I have seen quite a few misconceptions about the french revolution from several different posters and I feel a discussion would do us well.
Misconceptions surrounding the French revolution? OK, we can talk about the celebration of Bastille Day, against what actually happened.
Iamamartianchurch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:33 AM #160
TheSilentAssassin
Words and Stuff
 
TheSilentAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Misconceptions surrounding the French revolution? OK, we can talk about the celebration of Bastille Day, against what actually happened.
I am specifically interested in the notion of french that "lobbed heads off" as being anything like the radical egalitarians. As I have said, I am not big on history. I don't particularly care. I am interested in ideologies though and the notion of Robespierre's "virtue is terror" is quite interesting to me.
__________________
“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads
TheSilentAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:36 AM #161
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
Iamamartianchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I am specifically interested in the notion of french that "lobbed heads off" as being anything like the radical egalitarians. As I have said, I am not big on history. I don't particularly care. I am interested in ideologies though and the notion of "virtue is terror" is quite interesting to me.
Well you can take Mr. Political Potential over in Cambodia. He was a shining example of egalitarianism gone too far. As for this country, I'll defer you too barrel roll.

I'll say this though. Equality can only lead one way, absolute zero.
Iamamartianchurch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:45 AM #162
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
Alright, thought experiment. We don't have teacher's unions.

Can anyone come up with a system within which teachers can lobby for better working conditions (read:better schools) as well as have a voice when their pay/benefits get cut without jeopardizing children's education? Where bad teachers can be removed, and good teachers compensated accordingly/improve other teachers?
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:50 AM #163
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Well you can take Mr. Political Potential over in Cambodia. He was a shining example of egalitarianism gone too far. As for this country, I'll defer you too barrel roll.

I'll say this though. Equality can only lead one way, absolute zero.
I wouldn't argue for equality. I'm smarter/more valuable than all you mother****ers and my wage should reflect that

I would only argue for some form of financial recognition that the higher your income, the more you unavoidably rely on other people and external institutions to accrue that wealth. Reliance that is rarely reflected in wages and expenses.

That the wealthy are becoming disproportionately wealthier is an indication that this is not currently appropriately accounted for.
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.

Last edited by Umami : 12-06-2012 at 10:53 AM.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:33 AM #164
benji25
Legen (wait for it) Dary
 
benji25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities
benji25 is a Moderator
benji25 is BST Trusted
benji25 donated to help Peyton Trent
benji25 is playing at Living Legends V
benji25 posts videos on PbNation
benji25 supports our troops
benji25 has perfected Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
I wouldn't argue for equality. I'm smarter/more valuable than all you mother<del>****</del>ers and my wage should reflect that

I would only argue for some form of financial recognition that the higher your income, the more you unavoidably rely on other people and external institutions to accrue that wealth. Reliance that is rarely reflected in wages and expenses.

That the wealthy are becoming disproportionately wealthier is an indication that this is not currently appropriately accounted for.
I am not sure if I understand 100% the point you are trying to make. Unless you are very very rich I don't see how you materially rely on anything more than anyone else. I think the target of Obama for "wealthy" is above like, $250k or something? At that level up until being very wealthy I don't think you are relying on much more than any other person. Same legislature, same police force, same public everything virtually. What you do have to rely on (investment managers, lawyers, etc.) you likely pay a pretty penny for.

Now if you meaning relying on the people below you at work that is something different. How much you rely on the people is the demand for the job. If I rely on the guy below me to provide me with an in depth analysis (for a merger let's say)that represents months or years of work I will pay him a good amount if it is done well. Compare that to a blue collar job where after a week of training almost anyone could do it, you do not need to rely on that one person so much because he can easily be replaced.
benji25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:59 AM #165
Umami
"That guy"
 
Umami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Inside the Beltway
Umami supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
I am not sure if I understand 100% the point you are trying to make. Unless you are very very rich I don't see how you materially rely on anything more than anyone else. I think the target of Obama for "wealthy" is above like, $250k or something? At that level up until being very wealthy I don't think you are relying on much more than any other person. Same legislature, same police force, same public everything virtually. What you do have to rely on (investment managers, lawyers, etc.) you likely pay a pretty penny for.

Now if you meaning relying on the people below you at work that is something different. How much you rely on the people is the demand for the job. If I rely on the guy below me to provide me with an in depth analysis (for a merger let's say)that represents months or years of work I will pay him a good amount if it is done well. Compare that to a blue collar job where after a week of training almost anyone could do it, you do not need to rely on that one person so much because he can easily be replaced.
That wasn't my point and I might make a longer post about it later, but I do believe you've just made an argument in favor of unions.

"It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my *** off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation?"
__________________
Everything great in the world is done by neurotics; they alone founded our religions and created our masterpieces.

SOG
I am affiliated with Lurker Paintball. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of LurkerPB.
Umami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 12:13 PM #166
benji25
Legen (wait for it) Dary
 
benji25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities
benji25 is a Moderator
benji25 is BST Trusted
benji25 donated to help Peyton Trent
benji25 is playing at Living Legends V
benji25 posts videos on PbNation
benji25 supports our troops
benji25 has perfected Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami

That wasn't my point and I might make a longer post about it later, but I do believe you've just made an argument in favor of unions.

"It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my *** off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation?"
How did I make an argument for unions? I don't think I did and if I did I did not mean too.
benji25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 12:50 PM #167
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
Iamamartianchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
I wouldn't argue for equality. I'm smarter than all you mother****ers and my wage should reflect that

I would only argue for some form of financial recognition that the higher your income, the more you unavoidably rely on other people and external institutions to accrue that wealth. Reliance that is rarely reflected in wages and expenses.

That the wealthy are becoming disproportionately wealthier is an indication that this is not currently appropriately accounted for.
I don't agree that the higher incomes are more reliant on other people than lower incomes.

But, what I think should be dealt with are not the owners of production but those who partake in the refined piracy of investment. Something about capital gains and all that. Economics really isnt my area, so I'll bow out of the income egalitarianism discussion. Or whatever subject pertaining to income we are having, since you don't like equality either.
Iamamartianchurch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 06:18 PM #168
barrel roll
secedere
 
barrel roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL/GA border
barrel roll is one of the top 500 posters on PbNation
barrel roll is Legendary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umami View Post
Alright, thought experiment. We don't have teacher's unions.

Can anyone come up with a system within which teachers can lobby for better working conditions (read:better schools) as well as have a voice when their pay/benefits get cut without jeopardizing children's education? Where bad teachers can be removed, and good teachers compensated accordingly/improve other teachers?
Individuals with balls and resolve. That includes active parents, knowledgeable administrators, and competent teachers.

A ****ty teacher will not compromise the education of a child with at least one parent that cares about their child's education.
__________________
--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---
If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick Henry
I'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.
MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker teching
Will soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts
barrel roll is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump