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Old 10-14-2012, 10:35 AM #1
dreadedkaos
 
 
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Really weird Indy/Hater LED board acting up


Any and all tips and help would be greatly appreciated.. Also experiencing a small leak down the barrel? Any help with that i would also be grateful for.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:32 AM #2
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leak down the barrel might be the cutseal not sealing against the poppet.

also, the board issue.. i didnt follow you


you hold the trigger down when turning it on until the led flashes yellow. Yellow is the fire mode menu. not necessarily the programming menu.

the forth option (solid yellow) is nppl semi.

http://www.alienpb.com/_images/compa...pendence09.pdf

Im not sure if you really have it in semi. Also, what is your dwell set too? If i had to make a big guess about the velocity spike, your dwell is set low which would call for a higher pressure to crono to 285fps. Once you hit ramp (or a high rate of fire) the ram is opening the valve so many times per second that it causes the valve to "over dwell" its self which would increase fps.

now, if the dwell was set higher in the first place.. the valve overdwelling during fast rate of fire might not necessarily increase your fps.. it would just be using more air.

i hope that makes sense.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:48 AM #3
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I don't think you're in semi.........

Yup a leak down the barrel is cup seal/valve related. Check to make sure the metal poppet hasn't come unscrewed from the cup seal. Make sure the cup seal is clean. If that doesn't work check the valve orings.

I'm not really sure how you know your velocity is spiking during rapid fire. You can't chrony a gun in ramp reliably. If your cup seal was unscrewing as you shoot.....then that would increase the valve open time which could cause it. That's a long shot though. Or like firefoxx said, your dwell is just way way low so your valve isn't closing off between shots. That would have to be a pretty low dwell setting. I doubt the gun would cycle that low.

I'd do a reset on the board to start. Just to make sure firing modes aren't messed up. Then set the dwell to the proper setting for an alien. 12ms is a good place to start. Air up your gun with the LPR totally off and see if the bolt pressurizes(it shouldn't). It's possible air may be bypassing your LPR at higher rates of fire and causing the noid to cycle. Reset your regs then see what happens. Don't touch the firing modes after the reset.

I suppose it's also possible you just have trigger bounce....although that wouldn't occur after 7 shots exactly every time.

Maybe reservice your regs as well. Clean the old grease out.....replace it. Clean off the spring packs. Make sure there are no odd sized orings in there. Who knows.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:25 PM #4
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this gun will be in my possession on Saturday. anyone wanna take bets on how long itl take me to get it fixed? lol he said it started leaking form between the ram case and the grips so im betting its cupseal, noid gasket and MAYBE rammer oring. hopefully not a nasty noid but whatever.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:41 PM #5
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Ah yes.......if it's not down the barrel then you're right. Probably a quick fix.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:51 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
I'm not really sure how you know your velocity is spiking during rapid fire. You can't chrony a gun in ramp reliably. If your cup seal was unscrewing as you shoot.....then that would increase the valve open time which could cause it. That's a long shot though. Or like firefoxx said, your dwell is just way way low so your valve isn't closing off between shots. That would have to be a pretty low dwell setting. I doubt the gun would cycle that low.
lets think for a second though. you ran the indy at a low dwell setting for efficiency. 9ms or so. It cycled and worked fine however, if i increased the dwell from 9ms to 12ms, i would get an fps increase. now hold that thought.

if i went from 12ms to 14ms, i might not see the same fps gain. therefor an increase in dwell does nothing but make the marker use more air.


Sooo at rapid fire, the gun over dwells just from being shot fast (more mechanical dwell). normally this would be fine because we are running 12ms dwell and an increase in dwell time does not add velocity BUT if your base dwell is low like 9ms. The valve overdwelling mechanically would most likely increase the velocity but only during high rof.

Makes sense to me
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:52 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffan2 View Post
this gun will be in my possession on Saturday. anyone wanna take bets on how long itl take me to get it fixed? lol he said it started leaking form between the ram case and the grips so im betting its cupseal, noid gasket and MAYBE rammer oring. hopefully not a nasty noid but whatever.
im doubting the noid gasket. If the noid is venting, check the lpr.

i dont know how this even happens lol.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:24 PM #8
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Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
Ah yes.......if it's not down the barrel then you're right. Probably a quick fix.
down the barrel is better than "leaking from the noid area" lol cupseal i can deal with, i dont want to buy a new noid hahahaa.

yeah it cycles which is good i figure just set board back to stock, use my reg tester to get it to 210 and bump the lpr untill its up to speed. its possible the leak was caused by the LPR being super over pressurized. doubtful but maybe.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:32 PM #9
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overdwell

Quote:
Originally Posted by firefoxx04 View Post
lets think for a second though. you ran the indy at a low dwell setting for efficiency. 9ms or so. It cycled and worked fine however, if i increased the dwell from 9ms to 12ms, i would get an fps increase. now hold that thought.

if i went from 12ms to 14ms, i might not see the same fps gain. therefor an increase in dwell does nothing but make the marker use more air.


Sooo at rapid fire, the gun over dwells just from being shot fast (more mechanical dwell). normally this would be fine because we are running 12ms dwell and an increase in dwell time does not add velocity BUT if your base dwell is low like 9ms. The valve overdwelling mechanically would most likely increase the velocity but only during high rof.

Makes sense to me
Perhaps but........if your dwell runs too low eventually the ram just won't get enough air to cycle properly or open the valve at all, even with LPR at max pressure. Only because the noid doesn't stay open long enough for the needed amount of air to build up. I ran 9ms and that was a pretty consistent and usable setting but once I started to get lower than that, things didn't work as well. I just don't see the gun being able to fully cycle at a low enough setting for a velocity increase to happen.

One other thing that could happen, is perhaps a sticky reg situation. The grease has gone tacky....so at low rates of fire the regulators flow is decreased which drops velocity. At higher rates of fire the extra friction is warming the grease up and the air output is rising. Kind of like a minor bolt stick situation on a spooler gun. Slow shooting is irratic but fast shooting works fine. This is another long shot though. I've seen this happen on poppet guns maybe 3 times in my paintball career. Usually to guys who left their guns in the trunk to bake in the sun for a week or so.

Now.....if he really is in semi and his board is messed up..... anything can happen.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:34 PM #10
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noid

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffan2 View Post
down the barrel is better than "leaking from the noid area" lol cupseal i can deal with, i dont want to buy a new noid hahahaa.

yeah it cycles which is good i figure just set board back to stock, use my reg tester to get it to 210 and bump the lpr untill its up to speed. its possible the leak was caused by the LPR being super over pressurized. doubtful but maybe.
Well the SMC noids are pretty dependable. They will blow off excess air automatically though. It doesn't mean they're broken. I doubt it's a noid problem.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:43 PM #11
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Quote:
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Perhaps but........if your dwell runs too low eventually the ram just won't get enough air to cycle properly or open the valve at all, even with LPR at max pressure. Only because the noid doesn't stay open long enough for the needed amount of air to build up. I ran 9ms and that was a pretty consistent and usable setting but once I started to get lower than that, things didn't work as well. I just don't see the gun being able to fully cycle at a low enough setting for a velocity increase to happen.
i dont think your understanding me correctly

im not talking about a dwell decrease, just increase causing the velocity spike.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:56 PM #12
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lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by firefoxx04 View Post
i dont think your understanding me correctly

im not talking about a dwell decrease, just increase causing the velocity spike.
I don't think I am understanding you either lol.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:18 PM #13
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sometimes poppet style markers have an increase in mechanical dwell durring high rates of fire. the ram is smacking the valve so often that it dosnt have time to close 100% of the time. This increase in dwell would (in theory) increase your velocity but only while the valve is "over dwelling"

now we all know that increasing your dwell will only increase fps if the dwell was set to low to begin with. So if his dwell is at 9ms for example, the gun over dwelling while ramping would cause a velocity spike.

maybe jack will chime in and explain how the indy is not vulnerable to overdwelling or something but its just my guess.


and indy set to the "proper" dwell of 12ms or higher would not have a velocity spike even if it overdwells while ramping simply because its already running 12ms of dwell and anything more wont increase the fps anyways.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:32 PM #14
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Ok I was understanding you. I've never seen this over dwelling happen on any gun to be honest. The valve open time is so short......the ram would have to be hitting the poppet way faster than it ever could. I've never seen a gun shoot a higher velocity at high speeds than at low speeds accept in the case of regs that needed service, or guns with bolt stick, or guns that got physically hotter with rapid fire, like my old automag RT.

Then again I don't recall ever experimenting and shooting a gun over a chrony in rapid fire mode to see what happens. Not since I had my old automag RT.....which was a long long time ago. So I could easily be wrong.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:52 PM #15
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its kind of a long shot but i figured if his dwell is really low then maybe there is a chance but who knows.

the regs are more probable. sounds like this guns needs to be completely gone over. I tore my indy down for the first time and everything looked good as far as function goes. it had some gunk here and there but you can tell it was taken care of


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Old 11-24-2012, 01:29 AM #16
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Nice lol. *bumps the table*
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:22 PM #17
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tear that gun all the way down and take a look. do a voltage test, see if the negative wire is seeing power. see if the positive is seeing power.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:22 PM #18
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Are they broken? Sometimes people just pull the wires out of the white connector. You can snap them back in if the metal tabs are still on them.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:41 PM #19
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found the leak....... so

JB weld? anyone have any better ideas?
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:52 PM #20
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that went all the way through? HOLY **** what a joke...

polish that area up nice and clean then use jb weld. do a clean job.

can you get to the other wide of that gouge to make sure you dont get any excess into the passage way?


you might be able to find a local welder to tig weld it closed and then get it annoed.
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