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Old 11-16-2012, 07:13 AM #127
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How does anyone justify this? Just because you own property you are obligated to pay for kids you don't know to attend school?
Everyone pays taxes that go to things they do not use. Just look at the bright side; your property tax dollars are going to educate the person who will fill your job when you burn out in that position like all the other people before you did.

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:18 AM #128
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If I am unlucky enough to be at the top of tax rate A, then get that few hundred dollars more next year and progress to the bottom of rate B, I will essentially make less money than I was when in the lower tax bracket. That isn't "fair".
Did someone hijack BR's account?

In your scenario, you are only taxed at the B rate on the income you make in that tax bracket.

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If you want to take 50% of person X's wages (that has been taxes how many times by the time the wage earner gets it?) then you should take 50% of person Y's wages as well. That is the only time you realize it is wrong, but for some reason you think it is ok to plunder more from the guy in the bigger house.
So neither the left nor the right consider the current tax code fair (for differing reasons)?

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:47 AM #129
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Haha you've been to the middle east and you need someone to explain to you the benefit of making sure everyone gets a basic education?

Seriously, people told you to move to a ****ty country because that's the system you're advocating, alternatively stay in the US and make angry posts on the internet.

Also I find it amusing you've born witness firsthand to the amount of money the military just burns through like its nothing and you think your taxes are high because of black people and public schools.

So you're saying that it's fair that someone can send 8 kids through public school without paying a dime in tax for it as long as they don't own a house? It's fair that someone with no kids foots the bill for everyone else? It's a flawed system. And I know the military burns billions of dollars on useless **** every month, I think everyone already knows this.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:08 AM #130
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Originally Posted by custar View Post
Did someone hijack BR's account?

In your scenario, you are only taxed at the B rate on the income you make in that tax bracket.



So neither the left nor the right consider the current tax code fair (for differing reasons)?

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I didn't have my caffeine yet.

But yea, everyone agrees the tax code is "broken".
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:58 PM #131
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Originally Posted by EPAPressure View Post
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...about_research

Click an industry, then click a heading. $22,000,000 was spent in researching this tax plan.
There are no good sources on that page, but of course you wouldn't expect the shill website to have unbiased sources when they all say the FairTax is a bad idea. It is a thinly veiled way of cutting taxes on the rich.

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Progressive tax rates are not fair. If I make more, you (government) take more. If I want more, I have to make a significant amount more. If I am unlucky enough to be at the top of tax rate A, then get that few hundred dollars more next year and progress to the bottom of rate B, I will essentially make less money than I was when in the lower tax bracket. That isn't "fair".
It is perfectly fair. Everyone is living the same number of hours in a day, if someone is making hundreds of times more money in that time there's nothing inherently unfair about them paying hundreds of times more taxes.

Any given percentage being fair or unfair is a complicated analysis, oversimplifying it into a one-statistic moral judgment is not only bad, it is dangerous.

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One person making $5mil a year consumes less in government services than 50 people making $100K a year. Heck, that millionaire may consume less in government services than ONE of those making $100,000.00 because the millionaire is likely to be more self-sufficient. Can you explain why the government should receive less of the $5mil in taxes from the 50 than from the same $5mil received by the one person? You can make an argument for equalizing income; the tax code does have a social engineering aspect to it. However, that doesn't explain the "fair share" idea in terms of consuming government services
Highly disagree, because when a person is making $5m they are leveraging the lives and labor of many other people. The government should receive more from the $5 mil person as part of his share of the social support for the people whose work he is exploiting, largely passively, to make his money, not to mention all the infrastructure those people and the entire enterprise uses, which is way, WAY more than any one of the workers uses.

And of course the more he skims off of the labor of his workers, the more tax he should pay, as that inherently reduces the ability of his workers to fund their own social support.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:02 PM #132
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And of course the more he skims off of the labor of his workers, the more tax he should pay, as that inherently reduces the ability of his workers to fund their own social support.
Wow, you are assuming that the 50 in my example work for the one making $5mil. Fine, I can go with that. Next, you are assuming any of the workers has the talent to do what the one making $5mil does. You are also assuming a zero-sum game. Business in the context we are now discussing is not necessarily a zero-sum game. One can say that the one is taking $5mil out of the business that could otherwise go to the 50, but one can also say that without the one head honcho, the business would not exist, would go bankrupt, or would not make enough profit to pay as your assumptions dictate.

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Highly disagree, because when a person is making $5m they are leveraging the lives and labor of many other people. The government should receive more from the $5 mil person as part of his share of the social support for the people whose work he is exploiting, largely passively, to make his money, not to mention all the infrastructure those people and the entire enterprise uses, which is way, WAY more than any one of the workers uses.
Those people whose labor is being leveraged and amplified by the person making the $5mil are also paying taxes, so the government is already being compensated for its services to them.

You also have not even come close to showing how one person making $5mil consumes more in government services than 50 making $100,000.00 each. You are just trying to make an argument to support your belief that businesses should be employee-owned.

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:11 PM #133
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Custar and BR, I pretty much addressed everything you asked in the last two of my posts already. But I'm leaving for work in a minute here, so I'll be back later to go through and respond more in depth. But before I go, of course a progressive tax asks the rich to pay a slightly higher proportion of their income. I wasn't trying to hide anything there. That is exactly what I was implying...

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:25 PM #134
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Wow, you are assuming that the 50 in my example work for the one making $5mil. Fine, I can go with that. Next, you are assuming any of the workers has the talent to do what the one making $5mil does. You are also assuming a zero-sum game. Business in the context we are now discussing is not necessarily a zero-sum game. One can say that the one is taking $5mil out of the business that could otherwise go to the 50, but one can also say that without the one head honcho, the business would not exist, would go bankrupt, or would not make enough profit to pay as your assumptions dictate.
That's neither here nor there. Obviously a business with someone getting paid $5m is operating somehow (fraud notwithstanding). The bottom line is you don't make $5m without a ****load of infrastructure allowing that kind of profitability, both human and otherwise.

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Those people whose labor is being leveraged and amplified by the person making the $5mil are also paying taxes, so the government is already being compensated for its services to them.
Depending on the rate of pay, they may not be paying enough taxes to support the social support they should get. That's fine, as the aggregation of their work output to generate large profits can also pay for their social support.

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You also have not even come close to showing how one person making $5mil consumes more in government services than 50 making $100,000.00 each. You are just trying to make an argument to support your belief that businesses should be employee-owned.
I don't think businesses should be employee-owned.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:41 PM #135
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I don't think businesses should be employee-owned.
We discussed that in another thread, didn't we? IIRC, we agreed that it is a viable business model but has some economic challenges.

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Depending on the rate of pay, they may not be paying enough taxes to support the social support they should get. That's fine, as the aggregation of their work output to generate large profits can also pay for their social support.
In my example, the 50 were making $100K each which should be enough.

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Old 11-16-2012, 03:53 PM #136
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We discussed that in another thread, didn't we? IIRC, we agreed that it is a viable business model but has some economic challenges.
I never advocated for or against it.

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In my example, the 50 were making $100K each which should be enough.
That's a single comparison though, the labor economy is a continuum. In other words you're cherry picking those two specific pay points while ignoring the myriad other people at lower pay points supporting both of those pay points.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:00 PM #137
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People ***** about the taxes and where they go but if they had kids and had to put them through school I guarantee you that bull **** would go unsaid. The fact is without this government and all of its amenities you wouldn't have opportunity. People who live in higher income neighborhoods probably have better security from police enforcement because guess where all those cops are patrolling?
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:16 PM #138
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People ***** about the taxes and where they go but if they had kids and had to put them through school I guarantee you that bull **** would go unsaid. The fact is without this government and all of its amenities you wouldn't have opportunity. People who live in higher income neighborhoods probably have better security from police enforcement because guess where all those cops are patrolling?
I have a child. I am doing everything to prepare not to send her to receive a government education. Charter or private, I'm not going to sail her down the river of failure and let some sorority bimbo with a degree in " like oh em gee, early childhood like, education" teach my daughter math.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:13 PM #139
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I have a child. I am doing everything to prepare not to send her to receive a government education. Charter or private, I'm not going to sail her down the river of failure and let some sorority bimbo with a degree in " like oh em gee, early childhood like, education" teach my daughter math.
First off that's a valley girl accent, second.... what the **** is this? Its like an incoherent rage against public education because of college grads/soroities/women/Californians?
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:15 PM #140
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Progressive tax rates are not fair. If I make more, you (government) take more. If I want more, I have to make a significant amount more. If I am unlucky enough to be at the top of tax rate A, then get that few hundred dollars more next year and progress to the bottom of rate B, I will essentially make less money than I was when in the lower tax bracket. That isn't "fair".
Not true. As has already been corrected, if you move to a higher tax bracket, only what you make on top of the lower tax bracket amount will be taxed at the higher rate. So no worries there!

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A flat dollar amount wouldn't work for the same reasons. The only fair way to do it would be a standard percentage across the board, with deductions. Or even better - get rid of income tax and institute single digit percentage sales taxes with credits at the end of the year.
A flat dollar amount isn't fair because someone making 80k a year can much more easily afford to pay say a flat $5k tax a year, than someone making $16k a year could.

Exact same reason a flat percentage tax is not fair.

I am of the opinion that we should strive to make the tax burden of equal degree for all Americans, not the tax amount. We all use the same government services/products, so I feel we should share about the same sacrifice that is needed to have such goods/services.

We can't have a high percentage flat tax rate without putting most of the burden on the lower classes. We can't have too low of a rate either, or else we will fall short in being able to pay for our public needs. So, again, some people are going to need to pay more than others. And who are these people asked to pay more? The people who can afford it most easily.

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Be honest about what you are advocating. Someone paying a flat x% on $80k a year is paying more than someone paying the same flat % on $22K per year. You are advocating that those making more pay proportionately more of their income.
Covered that above, sir!

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Not all occupations have the same value to society. Why should someone who chooses to pursue an occupation that is not of high value be given preferential treatment over those who choose more valuable occupations?
Value is a subjective term, in the way you are using it. Some people choose occupations to better society, and not having the profit motive as their highest reason for doing the work. They sacrifice pursuing a career path with higher pay, in order to fill a societal role they feel is important. These people, imo, should be commended, and able to do so without being taxed the same as someone who makes a **** ton of money. So in short, why should someone who makes less be taxed less? Because they cannot afford it, if they are to fill their societal role. For example, teachers and social workers for the most part make **** pay. If we make it practically impossible to earn a comfortable living working these jobs, then nobody will take them. And there is a very big difference between a comfortable living, and a luxurious one.

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What is everyone's fair share?
Enough to feel the burden of the products/services they expect from their government. Including the military. See above posts for further clarification of this if you need to.

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One person making $5mil a year consumes less in government services than 50 people making $100K a year. Heck, that millionaire may consume less in government services than ONE of those making $100,000.00 because the millionaire is likely to be more self-sufficient. Can you explain why the government should receive less of the $5mil in taxes from the 50 than from the same $5mil received by the one person? You can make an argument for equalizing income; the tax code does have a social engineering aspect to it. However, that doesn't explain the "fair share" idea in terms of consuming government services.
Because a person who has as much money as 50 people combined is in position to be able to more easily afford the tax rate needed to fuel our government. Those 50 people would feel the burden a hell of a lot more, as everything costs the same no matter how much money you have. Just because you have a million dollars, does not mean that gas, power, rent, and everything else I listed earlier gets any more expensive.

This is why I feel that a tax rate proportionate to one's income and cost of living in their area makes sense to me. I'm not saying that's a popular belief, but just that it makes more sense to me than expecting the lower classes to suffer the most under the weight of our needed tax revenue.

At the risk of conjuring a reckless analogy, I'm going to propose this anyway:

You have a pile of metal scrap, varying in weight from piece to piece, that needs moved across the yard. 2 people to do the job. One person is 6'2" 220lbs and a professional body builder. The other is a 5'4" 120lb lawn service worker. Both men will walk at the exact same rate, but they are on a time deadline that must be met. Is it fair to expect them both to carry 80lbs of scrap each trip? Or would it make more sense to have the stronger and more able to carry 100lbs per trip, and the weaker less able to carry 60lbs per trip?

I won't say that is a perfect analogy, but I feel it does demonstrate my point of sharing an equal burden, to achieve the goal.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:39 PM #141
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At the risk of conjuring a reckless analogy, I'm going to propose this anyway:

You have a pile of metal scrap, varying in weight from piece to piece, that needs moved across the yard. 2 people to do the job. One person is 6'2" 220lbs and a professional body builder. The other is a 5'4" 120lb lawn service worker. Both men will walk at the exact same rate, but they are on a time deadline that must be met. Is it fair to expect them both to carry 80lbs of scrap each trip? Or would it make more sense to have the stronger and more able to carry 100lbs per trip, and the weaker less able to carry 60lbs per trip?

I won't say that is a perfect analogy, but I feel it does demonstrate my point of sharing an equal burden, to achieve the goal.
Actually not a bad analogy
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:52 PM #142
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Yeah I'm with drgonzo. That was a pretty accurate analogy.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:05 AM #143
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I think people aren't understanding how tax brackets work, if you get a raise and you jump to a new tax bracket only the income made in excess of that bracket's cutoff is taxed at the new rate, you don't "lose money"
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:04 AM #144
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I think people aren't understanding how tax brackets work, if you get a raise and you jump to a new tax bracket only the income made in excess of that bracket's cutoff is taxed at the new rate, you don't "lose money"
Did someone say that? I'm usually pretty good about catching that and slapping anyone around who says that. I noticed spracks came kind of close but he gets the benefit of the doubt and he wasn't making an assholic case.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:35 AM #145
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Did someone say that? I'm usually pretty good about catching that and slapping anyone around who says that. I noticed spracks came kind of close but he gets the benefit of the doubt and he wasn't making an assholic case.
I actually wasn't 100% sure on that, but it really wasn't the point that I was arguing, so I decided not to get into it with BR there.

EDIT: And apparently I missed where Custar had corrected BR on this. Whoops. Corrected in my above post!
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:03 AM #146
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Did someone say that? I'm usually pretty good about catching that and slapping anyone around who says that. I noticed spracks came kind of close but he gets the benefit of the doubt and he wasn't making an assholic case.
Yes, BR did last page and Custar already corrected him, but Sprack's quoted the original mistake by BR and addressed it as if it were true so I thought it bore repeating.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:08 AM #147
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Yes, BR did last page and Custar already corrected him, but Sprack's quoted the original mistake by BR and addressed it as if it were true so I thought it bore repeating.
Damn, I totally missed that. And I replied to that post too! Maybe with custar intervening I just overlooked it. But for shame, BR, caffeine or not, you don't make that mistake unless you have a fundamentally wrong understanding of the taxation system.

With such a fundamentally wrong view to start with, you really should reconsider whether your holistic view still holds water (it doesn't).
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