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Old 11-16-2012, 06:23 AM #85
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^^^ Exactly.

Furthermore, it's disappointing to see field owners who espouse this kind of divisionist attitude as a way of doing business.

It's one thing to cater to one type of baller; obviously field space is at a premium and having all styles at one field may be cost-prohibitive... but to turn that into some kind of a crackpot "philosophy" that excludes players based on what they wear/how much paint they shoot/what kind of gun they shoot, is counter-productive and in some cases just flat out rude.

Furthermore, teaching this attitude to younger players will only serve to hurt paintball as a whole; now that little kid has been taught disdain for "the other people", and will most likely carry on the same bad attitude.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:50 AM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what he is saying. The "I only play speedball/woodsball" attitudes typically lead to divisions in the sport. Then add in the "only pump" players too and you have more division amongst players. People arguing over which style is better and why the other one sucks. Even though fields can cater to both simultaneously that division hurts the sport as a whole.
exactly the point i was attempting to make.

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Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
^^^ Exactly.

Furthermore, it's disappointing to see field owners who espouse this kind of divisionist attitude as a way of doing business.

It's one thing to cater to one type of baller; obviously field space is at a premium and having all styles at one field may be cost-prohibitive... but to turn that into some kind of a crackpot "philosophy" that excludes players based on what they wear/how much paint they shoot/what kind of gun they shoot, is counter-productive and in some cases just flat out rude.

Furthermore, teaching this attitude to younger players will only serve to hurt paintball as a whole; now that little kid has been taught disdain for "the other people", and will most likely carry on the same bad attitude.
this.

in the wide scope of things(coming from my former field manager self) it is more Profitable(or gives you more $$ to put back into your business) to cater to "speedballers" and teams, because the more of "us" (teams) you have around, the more paint you sell, and some field owners realize this, and that is WHY they cater to teams more, but unless you are in a limited space, you really need to do your best to cater to all styles of the game.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:54 AM #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team_ILLNatured

in the wide scope of things(coming from my former field manager self) it is more Profitable(or gives you more $$ to put back into your business) to cater to "speedballers" and teams, because the more of "us" (teams) you have around, the more paint you sell, and some field owners realize this, and that is WHY they cater to teams more, but unless you are in a limited space, you really need to do your best to cater to all styles of the game.
this is true especially in terms of rookie teams who play spray and pray with their back player because he will go through 2-4 hoppers a game if using a rotor/spire with ramping or auo

Also true because if you have a good team people will watch and theyll try to play like them usually ending up wasting paint and buying more
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:14 AM #88
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2-4 hoppers in a Point is norma for xballl. a very wise pro player once told me "after the break, your back players are not there to get eliminations, they are there to make oppertunities for front, mid and insert players to get eliminations"
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:18 AM #89
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Paintball in my area is in decline in general, doesnt matter if its speedball or woods, its just dieing forcing me to drive 3 hours or more to play.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:54 AM #90
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Originally Posted by Team_ILLNatured View Post
in the wide scope of things(coming from my former field manager self) it is more Profitable(or gives you more $$ to put back into your business) to cater to "speedballers" and teams, because the more of "us" (teams) you have around, the more paint you sell, and some field owners realize this, and that is WHY they cater to teams more, but unless you are in a limited space, you really need to do your best to cater to all styles of the game.
If this is true, why then as the OP suggested have many fields been removing their airball fields and replacing them with other rec fields? Wouldn't that be a bad business decision?

I agree that a business can do OK catering to the speedball market. But I think the overall market has to be big enough. Some places in California and Florida for instance seem to do just fine. But it's high density population. Hicksville, Anystate, USA has more of a problem. For a paintball facility in those places, donating resources to that relatively small segment of the paintball market, very often doesn't make sense. I think that is what the discussion originally started out as. About a decade ago, virtually every paintball field that started up, figured speedball was the future of paintball (I know I did) and they all tried to get their piece of the pie. A few years later, fields have realized that did not materialize. Yes speedball still exists and yes there is a market for those who want to go after it, but it didn't dominate paintball like many thought it would. That's all the OP was trying to say.

Why that didn't happen, has mostly to do with the cost. Go to any "Why did you stop playing tournaments?" thread and you will see that 90% of the time the explanation is cost. Most of the other 10% was because their teammates quit and often times the teammates quit because of the cost. To participate in tournament paintball take s a big time commitment (time is money) and a big financial commitment. A relatively small amount of people will be willing to commit to living in perpetual poverty. And for a facility to have an airball field mostly for rec players doesn’t make sense for many field owners due to the higher maintenance cost of airball fields compared to permanent structure fields.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:16 AM #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what he is saying. The "I only play speedball/woodsball" attitudes typically lead to divisions in the sport. Then add in the "only pump" players too and you have more division amongst players. People arguing over which style is better and why the other one sucks. Even though fields can cater to both simultaneously that division hurts the sport as a whole.
It causes divisions on the basis of what evidence?

Arguments on the internet are irrelevant....we can fight over oxygen online, that doesn't mean people are abandoning breathing....these type of electronic forums effectively promote conflict (everyone's effectively anonymous, there's no real downside to being a dick). Conflict *here* is meaningless.

At a *field* if you have players that like the woods being forced to play speedball (or the other way around)....they're probably not having as much fun as they hoped they'd get when they paid their money. Do *that* enough and you damage things. That's not to say you can't cycle through all sorts of games with any group...but if person who really likes speedball shows up and has to play half their day in the woods....how happy are they gonna be with that?

Yes, you can't always do everything...but if you have a player base that is large enough, finding a way to recognize the different groups and individually meet their needs will almost certainly make you a very successful field.

"One size fits all" answers are just plain bad.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:19 AM #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
It's one thing to cater to one type of baller; obviously field space is at a premium and having all styles at one field may be cost-prohibitive... but to turn that into some kind of a crackpot "philosophy" that excludes players based on what they wear/how much paint they shoot/what kind of gun they shoot, is counter-productive and in some cases just flat out rude.
You are reading things into what I said that just are not there. The lens you're viewing this whole thing through is pretty cracked.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:55 AM #93
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what he is saying. The "I only play speedball/woodsball" attitudes typically lead to divisions in the sport. Then add in the "only pump" players too and you have more division amongst players. People arguing over which style is better and why the other one sucks. Even though fields can cater to both simultaneously that division hurts the sport as a whole.
Why do you feel it hurts the sport as a whole? Do you think less speedball players are playing speedball because a few woodsball or pump players said speedball is stupid? Do you think there are less people playing in the woods because some speedball players said playing the in the woods is stupid? I think people make way too much out of a few people on paintball forums voicing their opinions of what they like better.

Personally I think discussion about the different available genres in paintball will only increase the overall number of players.

I don't play tournament paintball anymore because I don't like the direction it has gone, but I'm glad it's available for those that do want to take part. I even encourage people who have an inkling to give it a try, to do so. But that doesn't mean that in a discussion like this for instance, I can't state my opinion about the pros and cons. But If I state a reason why I think speedball for instance hasn't done as well as it could have, that doesn't mean I am anti-speedball.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:05 AM #94
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Ok ok people speedball I get it now yes rec ball brings in money but they have air ball at fields because it brings in people on it's own the place I play has
Airball
Hyperball
Castle-2-castle
Woodsball capture the castle
And couple others totally just forgot
All the fields attract players of different kinds
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:25 AM #95
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Are we all forgetting somehow that rec/woods players are often more willing to pay the normal fee/paint prices the way they are instead of begging for deals and "sponsorship" like practicing players?

Tournament players and the like are some of the least loyal customers in the business. I don't see how catering to their desires is an effective business tactic unless they're the only players you see in your area.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:27 AM #96
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Why do you feel it hurts the sport as a whole? Do you think less speedball players are playing speedball because a few woodsball or pump players said speedball is stupid? Do you think there are less people playing in the woods because some speedball players said playing the in the woods is stupid? I think people make way too much out of a few people on paintball forums voicing their opinions of what they like better.

Personally I think discussion about the different available genres in paintball will only increase the overall number of players.

I don't play tournament paintball anymore because I don't like the direction it has gone, but I'm glad it's available for those that do want to take part. I even encourage people who have an inkling to give it a try, to do so. But that doesn't mean that in a discussion like this for instance, I can't state my opinion about the pros and cons. But If I state a reason why I think speedball for instance hasn't done as well as it could have, that doesn't mean I am anti-speedball.
Because its not just a "few" people nor are they limited to just paintball forums. Too many people out there in paintball take the stance of "My style is better than your style"..."Everyone should play this way. We dont need THAT way. That way is messing up the sport". I have no idea how you are not seeing that on these forums and on the fields. But those mentalities do cause divisions in the sport because they cause divisions amongst the players. And those people influence new players and/or drive new players off.

I snowboard as well. I can't tell you the last time I've heard Freestylers and Freeriders insulting each others style or riding the way we do in paintball. They get along together and see it as one sport with different flavors. But us pantballers....nah too many of us just can't get along
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:30 AM #97
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I think that might have to do with the team nature of this sport, wanting to drag more people your direction if possible.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:20 PM #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by universal_dave

It causes divisions on the basis of what evidence?

Arguments on the internet are irrelevant....we can fight over oxygen online, that doesn't mean people are abandoning breathing....these type of electronic forums effectively promote conflict (everyone's effectively anonymous, there's no real downside to being a dick). Conflict *here* is meaningless.

At a *field* if you have players that like the woods being forced to play speedball (or the other way around)....they're probably not having as much fun as they hoped they'd get when they paid their money. Do *that* enough and you damage things. That's not to say you can't cycle through all sorts of games with any group...but if person who really likes speedball shows up and has to play half their day in the woods....how happy are they gonna be with that?

Yes, you can't always do everything...but if you have a player base that is large enough, finding a way to recognize the different groups and individually meet their needs will almost certainly make you a very successful field.

"One size fits all" answers are just plain bad.
Never said I agree with or support a "one size fits all" approach. I believe there is room for everyone and that we should and could all stand under the same umbrella without fighting.
Now as to your comment about these forum conflicts being meaningless, you must remember that these forums are simply an electronic outlet to express very real feelings and beliefs.
I'll give another example. Months back at my job I found myself interjecting in a convo where some co-workers, who play woodsball, were going in about how stupid or pointless speedball was. Worse yet they were telling this to other co-workers who have never tried speedball, only even played woodsball maybe once, and were actually listening to these guys. So let's say I hadn't been there to argue in defense of speedball. That could have been a group of guys that went on with the thought, "Well they told me not to even waste my time with speedball and they all play more then me so Imma take their advice".
These are the kinds of examples we mean when we are talking about divisions in the sport hurting the sport as a whole.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:33 PM #99
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Never said I agree with or support a "one size fits all" approach. I believe there is room for everyone and that we should and could all stand under the same umbrella without fighting.
Now as to your comment about these forum conflicts being meaningless, you must remember that these forums are simply an electronic outlet to express very real feelings and beliefs.
I'll give another example. Months back at my job I found myself interjecting in a convo where some co-workers, who play woodsball, were going in about how stupid or pointless speedball was. Worse yet they were telling this to other co-workers who have never tried speedball, only even played woodsball maybe once, and were actually listening to these guys. So let's say I hadn't been there to argue in defense of speedball. That could have been a group of guys that went on with the thought, "Well they told me not to even waste my time with speedball and they all play more then me so Imma take their advice".
These are the kinds of examples we mean when we are talking about divisions in the sport hurting the sport as a whole.
You are never going to stop people from expressing their opinions though. It happens in everything, from sports, to fashion, to food and beverage choices. And yes, we often seek advice from people we know. Maybe it's a sign of immaturity that people will actually say negative stuff about the stuff they choose not to spend their money on or participate in, but you aren't going to be able to make immaturity disappear.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:42 PM #100
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Never said I agree with or support a "one size fits all" approach. I believe there is room for everyone and that we should and could all stand under the same umbrella without fighting.
I don't disagree with that sentiment at all, but my original post (which was objected to and pointed out as "what is wrong with paintball") was that not everyone likes the same things. For me, part of "not fighting" is making sure that every type of player gets the best shot at finding the type of play he likes, which means the fields do better by not treating all players the same. If we are treated as fungible units, nobody is getting the experience they desire and *that* (for me) would be a larger source of fighting.

Quote:
Now as to your comment about these forum conflicts being meaningless, you must remember that these forums are simply an electronic outlet to express very real feelings and beliefs.
I'll give another example. Months back at my job I found myself interjecting in a convo where some co-workers, who play woodsball, were going in about how stupid or pointless speedball was. Worse yet they were telling this to other co-workers who have never tried speedball, only even played woodsball maybe once, and were actually listening to these guys. So let's say I hadn't been there to argue in defense of speedball. That could have been a group of guys that went on with the thought, "Well they told me not to even waste my time with speedball and they all play more then me so Imma take their advice".
These are the kinds of examples we mean when we are talking about divisions in the sport hurting the sport as a whole.

First, you're *never* going to get rid of people who try to show they know something or have a special connection by bagging on other things. You see it everywhere in life. PC folks bag on Apple. Apple folks bag on PCs. "Oh, I like Harleys and all Japanese bikes suck". That's human nature. I'd bet large money that those guys came up with their "don't even try it" schtick without any outside influence...and even if they're the rare case that did...most folks that do that come to it on their own, without help.

I think the most we can do to curb that kind of crap is to have field owners who really do think long and hard about how to give the best day for *every* type of player they plan to cater to and don't pretend that all players are identical. That will help make the *broad group* happy...and happy people ***** less.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:47 PM #101
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I snowboard as well. I can't tell you the last time I've heard Freestylers and Freeriders insulting each others style or riding the way we do in paintball. They get along together and see it as one sport with different flavors. But us pantballers....nah too many of us just can't get along
I can tell you, but I maybe draw the line differently than you.

I have yet to have a day skiing (which I manage about 10-15 ski days a season) where I don't hear a skier complain about the snowboarders "scraping all the snow off the mountain".

It happens everywhere, it doesn't kill things.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:08 PM #102
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You are never going to stop people from expressing their opinions though. It happens in everything, from sports, to fashion, to food and beverage choices. And yes, we often seek advice from people we know. Maybe it's a sign of immaturity that people will actually say negative stuff about the stuff they choose not to spend their money on or participate in, but you aren't going to be able to make immaturity disappear.
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First, you're *never* going to get rid of people who try to show they know something or have a special connection by bagging on other things. You see it everywhere in life. PC folks bag on Apple. Apple folks bag on PCs. "Oh, I like Harleys and all Japanese bikes suck". That's human nature. I'd bet large money that those guys came up with their "don't even try it" schtick without any outside influence...and even if they're the rare case that did...most folks that do that come to it on their own, without help.

I think the most we can do to curb that kind of crap is to have field owners who really do think long and hard about how to give the best day for *every* type of player they plan to cater to and don't pretend that all players are identical. That will help make the *broad group* happy...and happy people ***** less.
True...people will always have their opinions. My only point was that there are divisions in the paintball that, to some degree, affects paintball. Those guys I used as an example. That was simply to show how the opinions of some affect others and lead them not to give certain styles of play a try. Its immature and, for lack of a better word, stupid to allow someone else to formulate your opinion for you without giving it a try yourself BUT sadly that is just how too many people are.

And as for those guys, I can confirm that they have never actually tried speedball but came up with that opinion based off foolish rationale.


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I can tell you, but I maybe draw the line differently than you.

I have yet to have a day skiing (which I manage about 10-15 ski days a season) where I don't hear a skier complain about the snowboarders "scraping all the snow off the mountain".

It happens everywhere, it doesn't kill things.
Skiiers vs Snowboarders....yeah thats an eternal conflict lol
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:36 PM #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
True...people will always have their opinions. My only point was that there are divisions in the paintball that, to some degree, affects paintball.
The "problem" (for lack of a better term) is that there are definitely times when it's *advantageous* to us as a group to be thought of, about, and treated *differently*.

The response I initially got to what I said felt very reflexive...sort of like watching someone in Shanghai beat their fists and scream "there's only *one* China" if you try to talk to them about Tibet. I get that we want to be one happy family, but part of making sure that the family is happy is figuring out how each kid likes to be treated. That doesn't make any kid more or less important...it makes the *family* better.

Quote:
Skiiers vs Snowboarders....yeah thats an eternal conflict lol
But, I hope you'll get it sort of a similar situation...if you don't look at it too closely, it's really the same sport....but it's easy as hell to get one group to bag on the other. I just don't think that sort of thing *really* has such a negative impact on the situation as a whole. People like what they like, they'll define a "tribe" that they'll belong to no matter how hard you fight to stop them.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:27 AM #104
scroadkill
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hey - Pleasing everybody is an exercise in futility. It is better to specialize in one thing and do it well. Speedball, Woodsball, Tourneyball : Pick one and do it well.

Dominos, Subway, Starbucks... don't waste their time trying to please everyone. Instead they focus their attention on doing one thing well and in doing so are dominating their category.

I guarantee you a field that had the reputation as the best tourney field in the state will do more business than a field that caterers to all "styles". Ditto woodsball. Ditto speedball. Ditto novice play. Ditto Airsoft. Ditto Splatmaster.
Specialize, focus and be the best at one thing.

Would you go to Subway and order a pizza? or Starbucks and order a sub? or Dominoes and order coffee? Would you take a hot date to Chucky Cheese? lol... I think not.

btw: Horizon nailed it again. props to the voice of experience.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:31 AM #105
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I'll re-quote myself here:

Quote:
It's one thing to cater to one type of baller; obviously field space is at a premium and having all styles at one field may be cost-prohibitive... but to turn that into some kind of a crackpot "philosophy" that excludes players based on what they wear/how much paint they shoot/what kind of gun they shoot, is counter-productive and in some cases just flat out rude.
I never said fields should cater to everyone; as a matter of fact I stated this would be highly unlikely due to cost.

My problem is when specialization turns into some kind of an ideological war between styles. It's ridiculous.
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