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Old 11-10-2012, 08:04 PM #22
scroadkill
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Originally Posted by IrishNinja6 View Post
im not sure what your counter argument here is, but I feel like you just made my economy driven point...so thanks?

point is most small businesses fail because of the non-economic reasons.

I suggest the eMyth by Berber for a decent explanation as to why 75% of all small businesses fail in the first year.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:13 AM #23
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Originally Posted by scroadkill View Post
point is most small businesses fail because of the non-economic reasons.

I suggest the eMyth by Berber for a decent explanation as to why 75% of all small businesses fail in the first year.
I wasnt making an argument for small businesses failing, as that is not the topic of this conversation. never did I say that the economy is closing fields, I stated that paintball is a luxury sport and is expensive, therefore the economic crunch, which affects the consumer as much, if not more, than the business, is responsible for the decline of speedball.
speedball uses more paint (generally) which uses more money. the consumer is spending their money more carefully so they buy less paint, and play slower formats. pretty basic math.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:44 AM #24
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Originally Posted by IrishNinja6 View Post
I wasnt making an argument for small businesses failing, as that is not the topic of this conversation. never did I say that the economy is closing fields, I stated that paintball is a luxury sport and is expensive, therefore the economic crunch, which affects the consumer as much, if not more, than the business, is responsible for the decline of speedball.
speedball uses more paint (generally) which uses more money. the consumer is spending their money more carefully so they buy less paint, and play slower formats. pretty basic math.
Your argument makes an assumption that the number of people that want to play speedball remains constant - all other things considered - and therefore external things are to blame for the decline in participation. Horizon argues that your premise is false and I agree with him: your premise is false.

I believe speedball participants are loosing interest because many commercial field owners have discovered that the speedball aspect of their paintball business model is the least profitable and the most work to maintain and manage.

If speedball was more profitable you would see existing fields putting their old airball fields back up - but instead, you see the opposite.

And without field owners to drive interest, the interest will decline over time.

And once things hit a certain level of disinterest with the consumer the sponsors, advertisers, media and manufacturers will withdraw their support. I think the industry hit this point a few years ago. I mean when is the last time you saw facefull, paintball 2Xtreme or even an APG?
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:55 AM #25
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Your argument makes an assumption that the number of people that want to play speedball remains constant - all other things considered - and therefore external things are to blame for the decline in participation. Horizon argues that your premise is false and I agree with him: your premise is false.

I believe speedball participants are loosing interest because many commercial field owners have discovered that the speedball aspect of their paintball business model is the least profitable and the most work to maintain and manage.

If speedball was more profitable you would see existing fields putting their old airball fields back up - but instead, you see the opposite.

And without field owners to drive interest, the interest will decline over time.

And once things hit a certain level of disinterest with the consumer the sponsors, advertisers, media and manufacturers will withdraw their support. I think the industry hit this point a few years ago. I mean when is the last time you saw facefull, paintball 2Xtreme or even an APG?
paintball magazines? really? Print media as a whole is declining. you know? internet age, and whatnot. but thats another argument for another time. Youll notice, however, that when these forms of media were in their prime, we had no coverage of paintball events, now, they are streamed live on the internet. seems like progress to me.

http://www.face-full.com/
http://www.pb2x.com/
http://www.actionpursuitgames.com/

Oh lookie.....there they are.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:00 AM #26
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also, I believe that your business model is skewed. if you take ONE speedball player, and ONE woodsball player, and compare the amount of money each spends over the course of a month, I think the speed guy comes out as more profitable. Where the line of distinction lies, imo, is between REC play and TOURNEY play. its far less profitable for a field owner to run one tournament than it is to run a (good) weekend of open play, and MUCH more work.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:13 AM #27
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A poorer economy will affect regular players more than casual players or renters, no matter what genre they play. If a person is normally spending virtually all of his extra income on paintball, than it makes sense he will be cutting back more when his income is lowered than the person that only spends a smaller portion of his income on paintball. Both may cut back on their paintball habit, but it will be more evident to the field that caters to players that spend more of their income on the game, which is the category that speedball players tend to fall into.

Having said that, there was a general pulling back of speedball fields by many field owners before the economy went sour. But there is no doubt that the economy has affected speedball in a negative way. Indications seem to show that tournament speedball is actually starting to gain a little ground again, albeit slowly.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:23 AM #28
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Originally Posted by IrishNinja6 View Post
if you take ONE speedball player, and ONE woodsball player, and compare the amount of money each spends over the course of a month, I think the speed guy comes out as more profitable.
This discounts the point that Horizon made that the fields generally have to race to the bottom on pricing to chase the speedball players business...meaning competing for the speedball player makes all the other players less profitable.

Unless you happen to be the field that *all* the speedball teams practice at, I would find it hard to imagine that the speedball player's volume of paint can *really* make up for the drop on everyone else.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:59 AM #29
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also, I believe that your business model is skewed. if you take ONE speedball player, and ONE woodsball player, and compare the amount of money each spends over the course of a month, I think the speed guy comes out as more profitable.
Sorry but your lack of business knowlage makes your opinion skewed. Let me explain this in a different sport. One that's been around alot longer then paintball.

My family owns golf courses and golf schools. Just like paintball this is a luxury sport. Our golf school focuses on the 10%, which is the avid golfer, the one that spends high dollars yearly to play, learn, and progress. Yes this ONE golfer spends multiple times more then my ONE beginner or rec player. However, for every ONE avid golfer (tourny player) I have TWENTY recreational players. I hope you can see what I'm saying here without going into basic business stuctures of ROI's and Investment / Profit quotas.

If I purely focused on on the high end, high dollar individual, then my market demographic is now even FURTHER limited.

AS A FORMER TOURNEY PLAYER (I'm an old fart now) I remember having that attitude, I was the Captain of Iowa State's Toureny team, and a US Marine, so you can only guess how aggressive and loud I was.

Now my wife and I play rec ball, we both have our Ego's and fully touney gear, but I limit my ROF to something stupid low like 8bps, because I realized one thing. When I was a tourney player, I was a DICK. Only 10% of the rec players wanted to be like me or have anything to do with our aggressive, high volume shooting, fast moving and bunkering style of playing.

However just like my other profession (snowboarding) our sport is elietiest. And the upper end players dont reach down and teach rec players, we light them up with 15 shots on target because they expose their entire body while shooting. Snowboarding is the same way... the good guys are in their own club, in their own park, and if you try and come into their playgound they light you up. Maybe thats why I became a teaching pro... Because like all the sports I participate in... I want to see MORE people playing, because the money they bring to the industry helps EVERYONE. It helps the businesses, it helps everything grow and the costs to go down. I wish back in my tourney days I did more teaching... instead of bunkering.

I am happy to see this Mil-Sim thing picking up (even though as a Disabled Marine Corps veteran I find playing "war" to be silly, and then my PTSD kicks in...) I'll always have a huge passion for air-ball... I love it, it makes my heart pound faster and I get excited to play. I dont like crawling around in the dirt... or having to look over my shoulder to see if my team is going to shoot me accidently or finding the "enemy"... It does bring back painful memories, and stress that I shouldnt, or rather dont want to feel anymore. So I wont play Mil-Sim... but I will support it. Because I still love to play, and anything that helps the small businesses that own these fields helps us grow and stay alive.

This economy, this massive taxation of the small business owner, all these things make our lives extremely stressful just to keep the doors open, let alone provide for our families. No one is getting rich here... the business we own, we do so out of love of our hobbies, not because we are making millions of dollars.

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Old 11-11-2012, 03:40 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
A poorer economy will affect regular players more than casual players or renters, no matter what genre they play. If a person is normally spending virtually all of his extra income on paintball, than it makes sense he will be cutting back more when his income is lowered than the person that only spends a smaller portion of his income on paintball. Both may cut back on their paintball habit, but it will be more evident to the field that caters to players that spend more of their income on the game, which is the category that speedball players tend to fall into.

Having said that, there was a general pulling back of speedball fields by many field owners before the economy went sour. But there is no doubt that the economy has affected speedball in a negative way. Indications seem to show that tournament speedball is actually starting to gain a little ground again, albeit slowly.
this is the only point I was making. I dont know where all this other stuff came from....
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:26 PM #31
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This discounts the point that Horizon made that the fields generally have to race to the bottom on pricing to chase the speedball players business...meaning competing for the speedball player makes all the other players less profitable.

Unless you happen to be the field that *all* the speedball teams practice at, I would find it hard to imagine that the speedball player's volume of paint can *really* make up for the drop on everyone else.
Yeah, it discounts it when you only use half of my example, which is exactly what it was, an example. Its not a speedball players fault that there is price competition any more than it is a drivers fault that gas stations have to compete for business. your argument is invalid.




Quote:
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Sorry but your lack of business knowledge makes your opinion skewed. Let me explain this in a different sport. One that's been around A lot longer than paintball.

My family owns golf courses and golf schools. Just like paintball this is a luxury sport. Our golf school focuses on the 10%, which is the avid golfer, the one that spends high dollars yearly to play, learn, and progress. Yes this ONE golfer spends multiple times more then my ONE beginner or rec player. However, for every ONE avid golfer (tourney player) I have TWENTY recreational players. I hope you can see what I'm saying here without going into basic business stuctures of ROI's and Investment / Profit quotas.

jesus christ man, you are arguing against me, but once again made my point. ONE high level player is worth more than ONE lower level player EXACTLY what I said in my post it doesnt matter that 20 "beginners" are worth more than one, my EXAMPLE was 1v1


If I purely focused on on the high end, high dollar individual, then my market demographic is now even FURTHER limited.

AS A FORMER TOURNEY PLAYER (I'm an old fart now) I remember having that attitude, I was the Captain of Iowa State's tourney team, and a US Marine, so you can only guess how aggressive and loud I was.


Now my wife and I play rec ball, we both have our Ego's and fully tourney gear, but I limit my ROF to something stupid low like 8bps, because I realized one thing. When I was a tourney player, I was a DICK. Only 10% of the rec players wanted to be like me or have anything to do with our aggressive, high volume shooting, fast moving and bunkering style of playing.
where did this percentage come from? is this fact, or speculation? It sounds like it came out of your ***
However just like my other profession (snowboarding) our sport is eliteist. And the upper end players dont reach down and teach rec players, we light them up with 15 shots on target because they expose their entire body while shooting. Snowboarding is the same way... the good guys are in their own club, in their own park, and if you try and come into their playground they light you up. Maybe thats why I became a teaching pro... Because like all the sports I participate in... I want to see MORE people playing, because the money they bring to the industry helps EVERYONE. It helps the businesses, it helps everything grow and the costs to go down. I wish back in my tourney days I did more teaching... instead of bunkering.

this is all self inflating garbage not relevant to the conversation...and stereotypes. I consider myself a fairly high level player (12 years of speedball) and I know a TON of players who have NO problem helping beginners into the game. I let renters use my guns regularly, and if they ask for advice, i give it without problem.

I am happy to see this Mil-Sim thing picking up (even though as a Disabled Marine Corps veteran I find playing "war" to be silly, and then my PTSD kicks in...) I'll always have a huge passion for air-ball... I love it, it makes my heart pound faster and I get excited to play. I dont like crawling around in the dirt... or having to look over my shoulder to see if my team is going to shoot me accidently or finding the "enemy"... It does bring back painful memories, and stress that I shouldnt, or rather dont want to feel anymore. So I wont play Mil-Sim... but I will support it. Because I still love to play, and anything that helps the small businesses that own these fields helps us grow and stay alive.


This economy, this massive taxation of the small business owner, all these things make our lives extremely stressful just to keep the doors open, let alone provide for our families. No one is getting rich here... the business we own, we do so out of love of our hobbies, not because we are making millions of dollars.
this argument was not only painful for me to read, as an English major some years ago, but nearly 100% unrelated to the current argument...
I took the time to correct it for you. because Im still a dick.

on a more serious note, Happy Veterans Day. thanks for serving.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:35 PM #32
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Hey look, it's another speed vs woods thread with a ton of stereotypes and prejudices being thrown around.

"All speedball players are overshooting agglets! We should all be playing hopperball in the woods!"

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Old 11-11-2012, 04:59 PM #33
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I was not blaming the economy for the slow-down, although I must say it can't help. I was also surprised the prices have dropped in the last decade as well (I used to pay $80/case for good paint, now its down to just over $50).

My point was that not everyone wanted to advance into the tourney leagues and that style of play... 10 years ago there wasn't much else, either you play with rental squids or go play aggressive tourney.

Now-a-days we see another avenue of advancement, "advanced rec-ball" as I call it, including the Mil-sim ballers as well as people like my friend who plays with an "Ego" marker exclusively rec-ball (Mil-sim is only part of this "advanced rec-ball" group, certainly not the entirety). Both he and I [who play with an autococker] would not be considered Mil-sim - yet I would consider us both "Advanced rec-ballers".

Some of the advanced rec-ball and Mil-sim markers I see end up being just as expensive as tourney-markers after their "decked out", so I think Advanced rec-ball players have the potential to spend as much as tourney players (in gear). Some of the Mil-sim guys I've played with still carry a case of paint on their back, and aren't afraid to go through it in a game or two. So there are definitely still "advanced rec-ballers" out there who go through paint...

But you also see some "advanced rec-ballers" go pump too, so the gear doesn't define the player as much as it does in Speedball.

My point was that I'm happy to see another avenue of advancement for new paintball players...

I'm glad to see that new players who don't want to "go pro" are not destined to a life of playing with the rental newbies, but in fact can advance to play the same format with very experienced players.


My OP was not to say that Speedball is going to disappear, nor that Rec-ball is better (more than "better for me")... but simply to note how I've seen the game as a whole shifting over the past 17 years (back when I started playing).

And I think giving new players an option in how they want to progress is a positive thing.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:02 PM #34
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I was the Captain of Iowa State's Toureny team
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jesus christ man, you are arguing against me, but once again made my point. ONE high level player is worth more than ONE lower level player EXACTLY what I said in my post it doesnt matter that 20 "beginners" are worth more than one, my EXAMPLE was 1v1
It doesn't matter if one speedball/tournament player is worth more than one woodsballer. If it were an equal ratio in terms of attendance, then your argument might be valid. However, that ratio is not even close. The last time I played recreationally, the guys on the airball field were having trouble finding enough people to run 3v3 matches. Mind you, there were probably about sixty players in attendance. Many of the rec-ballers were renting guns, buying concessions, and tipping the refs. Who do you think the field was making more from?
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:13 PM #35
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I was not blaming the economy for the slow-down, although I must say it can't help.
no. I was blaming the economy. you asked for opinions. thats mine.

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Go State!


It doesn't matter if one speedball/tournament player is worth more than one woodsballer. If it were an equal ratio in terms of attendance, then your argument might be valid. However, that ratio is not even close. The last time I played recreationally, the guys on the airball field were having trouble finding enough people to run 3v3 matches. Mind you, there were probably about sixty players in attendance. Many of the rec-ballers were renting guns, buying concessions, and tipping the refs. Who do you think the field was making more from?
I understand how it works, John. thats why my example was 1:1 ratio. and also an EXAMPLE. I have seen fields get way less speedball players that woods players, and get way more as well. it depends on a ton of factors. this argumend has gone from the decline of speedball to another worthless argument about speed vs woods. Snake is right.

my point stands. people spend less on paintball and play differently in a bad economy.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:34 PM #36
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Its not a speedball players fault that there is price competition any more than it is a drivers fault that gas stations have to compete for business. your argument is invalid.
No, not his fault, but he's also likely not worth as much as you think he is.

Your half assed point was that a speedball player was more profitable, and now you pull gasoline into it....which adds a whole helping of "doesn't understand that the products are not fungible" along to the already existing helping of "likely doesn't *really* understand the difference between 'revenue' and 'profit'".

Please, more typing from you, you're enjoyable.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:39 PM #37
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No, not his fault, but he's also likely not worth as much as you think he is.

Your half assed point was that a speedball player was more profitable, and now you pull gasoline into it....which adds a whole helping of "doesn't understand that the products are not fungible" along to the already existing helping of "likely doesn't *really* understand the difference between 'revenue' and 'profit'".

Please, more typing from you, you're enjoyable.
more assumptions from fools. its cute really. MY point was that the "decline of paintball" can be traced to the decline of the economy. Adding gasoline made just as much sense as using golf or snowboarding. You can draw whatever assumptions you want about me. i *really* dont give a ****.

just so your simple mind can visualize it:

Driver - Automobile - gasoline
Paintball player - Marker - Paintballs


its actually a fairly accurate comparison.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:12 PM #38
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Ok,

So we have some saying "Economy was the reason for the decline of Speedball" and "Economy was not the reason for the decline of Speedball"

You're still focusing on Speedball.

I do think Speedball has lost some ground, but I don't think it has declined so much that Advanced Recball is merely the "leftovers" from declining speedballers...

The separate rise in the Mil-sim market would support this claim, as "leftover speedballers" [who left speedball because of a bad economy] would not then go spend $400-700+ to get 'recball' gear...


What are the factors that gained "Advanced Rec-ball" an increased user base, and more companies marketing toward that segment of the population?


The decline of popularity of Speedball is only one factor.

As I said I think the increase in Airsoft popularity was another factor.


What else do you think contributed to the rise of "Advanced Recball" (including Mil-Sim)


Not paying attention to the PB industry for a decade had me quite surprised at the different user base of paintball 2012.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:30 PM #39
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Ok,

So we have some saying "Economy was the reason for the decline of Speedball" and "Economy was not the reason for the decline of Speedball"

You're still focusing on Speedball.

I do think Speedball has lost some ground, but I don't think it has declined so much that Advanced Recball is merely the "leftovers" from declining speedballers...

The separate rise in the Mil-sim market would support this claim, as "leftover speedballers" [who left speedball because of a bad economy] would not then go spend $400-700+ to get 'recball' gear...


What are the factors that gained "Advanced Rec-ball" an increased user base, and more companies marketing toward that segment of the population?


The decline of popularity of Speedball is only one factor.

As I said I think the increase in Airsoft popularity was another factor.


What else do you think contributed to the rise of "Advanced Recball" (including Mil-Sim)


Not paying attention to the PB industry for a decade had me quite surprised at the different user base of paintball 2012.
lol. the thread is literally titled "the decline of speedball" so of course, thats the focus.

Rec ball is not a term left in the woods. you have recreational woodsball players, recreational speedball players, recreational pumpers, ect. the designation "Rec" simply means that you play however you play, for fun, and not necessarily in organized formats.

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What are the factors that gained "Advanced Rec-ball" an increased user base, and more companies marketing toward that segment of the population?

to answer this question, I believe that the decline in TOURNAMENT players (which is the distinction I believe you are applying to all speedballers) is that, while there is a wider array of tournament classes in the major tournaments, allowing for rookie players to play them and not get ravaged by pros, like in the old days, there has been a decline in local tournament availability, forcing the player who is serious about the game, but not so serious as to travel to Huntington Beach and Orlando every year into a situation where they cannot get a regular tourney fix, so they play more open play dates at the local field. Local tourneys have declined due to reasons already discussed, also tourney players tend to have bad attitudes, and are difficult to work with. ask a field owner. (horizon?)
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Last edited by IrishNinja6 : 11-11-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:12 PM #40
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First of all, it's been fairly well established and admitted to by some higher ups in the paintball industry that paintball participation started to decline before the USA (and the rest of the world) went into a recession. And if you remember, very shortly before the carpet got pulled out from the economy, the USA was in an economic boom (which of course made the recession seem that much worse, but that's another topic). But the reality is that paintball started to decline during the boom, before the recession.

There was a time in our sport's history when anyone that wanted to get more serious about paintball, went the tournament paintball route, which soon became known as speedball. You either played a slower version of paintball on larger fields or you chose to play on smaller fields with like minded folk who enjoyed a faster paced, more intense game.

As the technology the fast game was advancing, became available to those playing in the woods, the game in the woods changed as well and those who wanted to play more advanced paintball now had a choice to either play tournament type paintball or stay in the woods (or on other rec type fields) and play with like minded players there. MilSim was just a natural progression for those that had started playing woodsball that wanted to play more seriously. MilSim is just one choice though, as players can play recreational paintball with like minded players without having to get decked out in MilSim gear. Some just play advance ball tag, without specific equipment or clothing. That's sort of what I see myself playing. Just advanced ball tag, on whatever kind of field happens to be available.

So I agree with venarius that one of the reasons tournament type speedball has declined is because there are other forms of advanced paintball available. Players who want a more extreme version of paintball no longer need to step onto a speedball field to get it, which used to be the way it was.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:07 AM #41
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Originally Posted by IrishNinja6 View Post
...
if you say so.. of course the racks are still full of magazine.. just not paintball magazines.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:45 AM #42
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The scenario games are the big draw now. Playing capture the fort, in a large field (s) with objectives makes it enjoyable my many and not just a few.

Paintball fields have the challenge of making the latest and greatest design to play on while keeping costs down to attract a casual player. Paintball its expensive to play (compared to soccer, basketball, and airsoft). Its hard to play for under $50 when you factor in paint. The cost needs to fall in a bracket so all fields have a similar cost structure like going to a golf course. Better fields should charge more.

I like hyper ball (with pipes as bunkers) over inflatables. I enjoy woods ball too with goals and objectives. Speedball is alright, but there are to many people that take Speedball to seriously. However the fun in the game isn't lighting up someone or winning. For me its getting out with a friend or two, and hearing the paintballs wiz overhead and just miss me as I slide under cover.

The sport had potential to grow if we all help promote good sportsmanship.

Last edited by Christian P : 11-12-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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