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Old 11-08-2012, 11:11 AM #883
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Moral of the story so far: any degree from center to left is OK.

Any degree to the right.

SOUND THE ALARMS!
That is the vibe I am getting from most posters on this forum.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:17 AM #884
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Here's my perspective: Center left and far right don't work (in our current sphere at least). It lead to an epic demise of any discourse. I'm fine with center right. Hell, I am center right on a lot of issues. But I do believe that a two working ideologies a little bit off from what I believe to be right is better than two seperate ideologies (one a bit farther from my own and another way out there) not doing anything. That is why I believe we need to bring the right back towards the middle. This isn't a deontological argument; it's a consequentialist one.

Why should the right move in and not the left move out?
1) Because the right was the one to move out there to begin with.
2) The nation choose center left ideologies over far right.
3) Generally, I believe centrism to be a good thing. Far left plus far right is much worse than center left and center right.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:20 AM #885
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Hell, I am center right on a lot of issues.
Other than voter ID, which issues?

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:20 AM #886
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It is a good thing you mentioned in our sphere because the right side of the political spectrum has a few millennia behind it.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:36 AM #887
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Other than voter ID, which issues?

custar
To be fair, I wouldn't consider myself left or right. I believe that is asking the wrong question. I have been meaning to make a thread explaining my ideology, and have people critique it. Would you mind waiting until I explain it in full?

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It is a good thing you mentioned in our sphere because the right side of the political spectrum has a few millennia behind it.
How so?
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:38 AM #888
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To be fair, I wouldn't consider myself left or right. I believe that is asking the wrong question. I have been meaning to make a thread explaining my ideology, and have people critique it. Would you mind waiting until I explain it in full?
No problem waiting; you just posted that you are center right on some issues which made me curious.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:48 AM #889
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Authoritarian, patriarchal (monarchy), hierarchical(hereditary castes) etc etc. All hallmarks of the right wing have thousands of years of history in almost every region on the planet. Before the enlightenment (stupid term) period of course. Beyond social structure; duty and rank have been two of the highest held values in these societies ( contrasted against autonomy for example). There have been plenty of other organizations as well, but they are arguably less successful by any objective measurements over significant periods of time.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:25 PM #890
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The problem with competing ideologies is that they often have presupposed competing worldviews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism

Also, by left-right I often assume we are talking market v state, not (to use the french) movement v order, as I find the latter to be irrelevant. Yes, conservatives have history on their side... Because they are defined by siding with what once was... But by the current left-right distinction of state and market, they have no more history to them than the other.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:33 PM #891
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Current right used to be left, and current left used to be red. Or something.

I'm picking up what you're putting down.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:36 PM #892
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The problem with competing ideologies is that they often have presupposed competing worldviews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism

Also, by left-right I often assume we are talking market v state, not (to use the french) movement v order, as I find the latter to be irrelevant. Yes, conservatives have history on their side, but that is in their definition of siding with what once was... But by the current left-right distinction of state and market, they have no more history to them than the other.
I only mentioned the enlightenment because that's when Right wing stuff lost its grip. I think the left and right predate the names left and right (such as the roman republic or your link).

I dont buy into the linear view of history. Time is irrelevant so long as humanity remains fundamentally the same, which it has.

Sounds like you are think too much in terms of the Almighty.....I mean the economy.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:39 PM #893
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Current right used to be left, and current left used to be red. Or something.

I'm picking up what you're putting down.
I agree that the terms used in political theory are annoying as hell. Right means left means conservativism means republican means market. Socialists are really statist, and real socialists don't have an actual name. Marx isn't a marxists or a communist and Adam Smith isn't a capitalist. I wish we could just stop and redefine everything in a coherent way.

/rant
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:41 PM #894
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I've always taken them as separate ethos. I think that's the most rational way of looking at it. Even though nature is irreducible, we can abstract to some success.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:43 PM #895
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I only mentioned the enlightenment because that's when Right wing stuff lost its grip. I think the left and right predate the names left and right (such as the roman republic or your link).
The point is that if we started as communists we can hardly think of ourselves as a trend of progressiveness and conservatism. It doesn't work. I would much rather talk about the competing ideologies of the time (currently state and market) then how the competing ideologies have developed from the last dilemma (liberty v authority, probably).

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I dont buy into the linear view of history. Time is irrelevant so long as humanity remains fundamentally the same, which it has.
That seems more like a difference of perspective and how fundamentally we want to make "fundamental". We still eat food and drink water, yes.

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Sounds like you are think too much in terms of the Almighty.....I mean the economy.
I don't follow
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:50 PM #896
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The point is that if we started as communists we can hardly think of ourselves as a trend of progressiveness and conservatism. It doesn't work. I would much rather talk about the competing ideologies of the time (currently state and market) then how the competing ideologies have developed from the last dilemma (liberty v authority, probably).
this is why I hate the term conservative. This is also why so many conservatives look like complete fools when they point their fingers at liberals.


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That seems more like a difference of perspective and how fundamentally we want to make "fundamental". We still eat food and drink water, yes.
I'm terms of behavior, and well character. Sure we know a bunch more stuff about stuff, but the human is still just as prone to its vices as it has ever been.


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I don't follow
You said state versus market. I took that to mean economic.
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:57 PM #897
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this is why I hate the term conservative. This is also why so many conservatives look like complete fools when they point their fingers at liberals.
I think we are agreeing here.

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I'm terms of behavior, and well character. Sure we know a bunch more stuff about stuff, but the fundamental human is still just as prone to its vices as it has ever been.
Gladiators have progressed into football.
Slavery has progressed into economic exploitation and income disparity.

In a way, we are very different, but in another way we are very much the same. I agree. That is awfully marxist btw.

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You said state versus market. I took that to mean economic.
It is in the sense that our current political dichotomy is about how to solve problems with one or the other. Take the Obama thread for example. Climate change is a social problem that we can (and will) address in either a market way or a state way. Politics does not address it from any other lens.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:07 PM #898
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I think we are agreeing here.
yes.

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Gladiators have progressed into football.
Slavery has progressed into economic exploitation and income disparity.

In a way, we are very different, but in another way we are very much the same. I agree. That is awfully marxist btw.
Appearances man, people just get hung up too much on appearances.

I prefer gladiators to football or UFC. I suspect every man feels this way, even if they don't think it's right.

What is Marxist?

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It is in the sense that our current political dichotomy is about how to solve problems with one or the other. Take the Obama thread for example. Climate change is a social problem that we can (and will) address in either a market way or a state way. Politics does not address it from any other lens.
I understand this and I agree that this is how we operate. I've said it before, I think the free market is more of a left thing than a right thing. Again, autonomy vs. order. I'm not intimately familiar with preindustrial economies. If even such a thing existed.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:27 PM #899
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What is Marxist?
The notion that fundamentally we are the same despite outward looking "progress". It's not exclusively marxist, but it is pretty essential to it, especially in terms of the conflict progressing through society, changing forms, but remaining the same.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:32 PM #900
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The notion that fundamentally we are the same despite outward looking "progress". It's not exclusively marxist, but it is pretty essential to it, especially in terms of the conflict progressing through society, changing forms, but remaining the same.
Oh, I follow. What do you mean by changing through forms? Or what does Marx mean?
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:41 PM #901
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Oh, I follow. What do you mean by changing through forms? Or what does Marx mean?
Senseless killing to gladiators to football.
Slavery to feudal exploitation to modern economic exploitation (sweatshops).
Etc.

Obviously, he was more concerned with the latter.

Or more elegantly:
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Primitive Communism: as in co-operative tribal societies.
Slave Society: a development of tribal progression to city-state; aristocracy is born.
Feudalism: aristocrats are the ruling class; merchants evolve into capitalists.
Capitalism: capitalists are the ruling class, who create and employ the proletariat.
Socialism: workers gain class consciousness, and via proletarian revolution depose the capitalist dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, replacing it in turn with dictatorship of the proletariat through which the socialization of the means of production can be realized.
Communism: a classless and stateless society.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:10 PM #902
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I agree that the terms used in political theory are annoying as hell. Right means left means conservativism means republican means market. Socialists are really statist, and real socialists don't have an actual name. Marx isn't a marxists or a communist and Adam Smith isn't a capitalist. I wish we could just stop and redefine everything in a coherent way.

/rant
You, sir, are correct in this.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:14 PM #903
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Moral of the story so far: any degree from center to left is OK.

Any degree to the right.

SOUND THE ALARMS!
Except it's not just a "degree to the right"....refusing people a basic right in the name of "morality" (gay marriage) and a "survival of the fittest", blame-the-poor attitude toward social welfare is not just a degree to the right....

The candidates themselves are probably pretty moderate, but by catering to some of the more extreme groups in their base they become too far right for the rest of the voting public. The problem is in who the candidates choose to pander to, not the candidates themselves. Well, the good candidates anyway. I still honestly believe Bachmann and Cain are legitimately insane. Anybody who took those fools seriously needs to seriously rethink their lives.
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