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Old 11-05-2012, 11:06 AM #715
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The thing is, both the Egos and the Matrixes really stopped MAJOR innovations past their 2009 model. Since then, they've just been working on the luxury components of their markers. Like PE's larger screen on the 10/11 Egos and then the extension of the console rubber all the way up the back of the 11's gripframe. Dye moved to the wraparound grips and the soft rubber at the front of the marker.

Either way, Dye released the exact same marker with smaller windows and flipped the logo causing the DM12 to depreciate in value whereas Planet Eclipse hasn't done anything to force the depreciation of the Ego11 and in the case of the Geo2 the Geo3 actually had some major innovation.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:00 PM #716
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
I take this response as a sign that you acknowledge what I said as truth/fact but you simply don't want to concede. That fine though
Well then you take it the wrong way, I don't feel like arguing anymore with children who complain at change when the gun is the same exac price as it has always been. You seem to be of the opinion that dye is scamming you or being dishonest with their business practices, when they are nothing of the sort. Oooh, they released a new model, it's not 10000x better than the last they should just follow pe and not do yearly releases. No one is forcing you to get this years matrix, some people may like the looks more, some people may not. There really haven't much improvement on guns in any aspect since 07. A gun from 07 can still compete with guns of today. Why aren't you getting angry that every company has released new guns since 07 when there really haven't been major improvements on ANY front other than a little bit of a smaller size...
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:03 PM #717
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Either way, Dye released the exact same marker with smaller windows and flipped the logo causing the DM12 to depreciate in value whereas Planet Eclipse hasn't done anything to force the depreciation of the Ego11 and in the case of the Geo2 the Geo3 actually had some major innovation.
The company owes you nothing more than a working gun. It is not the companies job to regulate the free market of used guns, it is not the companies job to make sure you can sell your used gun for more than you can now. Because we all know that a companies main goal is to make their used guns depreciate in value, actually having their old guns depreciate so much in value with relatively no improvement is bad for their business, because it means that people who would buy a new gun will just go buy a used older model for much much cheaper.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:09 PM #718
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Originally Posted by randomdean100 View Post
The company owes you nothing more than a working gun. It is not the companies job to regulate the free market of used guns, it is not the companies job to make sure you can sell your used gun for more than you can now. Because we all know that a companies main goal is to make their used guns depreciate in value, actually having their old guns depreciate so much in value with relatively no improvement is bad for their business, because it means that people who would buy a new gun will just go buy a used older model for much much cheaper.
Bro, calm down, nobody was attacking you.

We all know that, but if a company releases the "New" 2013 model for a higher price than the 2012 model then the 2012 model will have an instant depreciation for no change as opposed to just keeping the 2012.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:36 PM #719
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Bro, calm down, nobody was attacking you.

We all know that, but if a company releases the "New" 2013 model for a higher price than the 2012 model then the 2012 model will have an instant depreciation for no change as opposed to just keeping the 2012.
lol, apparently an argument now implies anger instead of a series of sentences that explains something or leads to a conclusion.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:26 PM #720
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Originally Posted by randomdean100

Well then you take it the wrong way, I don't feel like arguing anymore with children who complain at change when the gun is the same exac price as it has always been. You seem to be of the opinion that dye is scamming you or being dishonest with their business practices, when they are nothing of the sort. Oooh, they released a new model, it's not 10000x better than the last they should just follow pe and not do yearly releases. No one is forcing you to get this years matrix, some people may like the looks more, some people may not. There really haven't much improvement on guns in any aspect since 07. A gun from 07 can still compete with guns of today. Why aren't you getting angry that every company has released new guns since 07 when there really haven't been major improvements on ANY front other than a little bit of a smaller size...
And you say you arent angry? You sound as if our comments are taking money put of your pocket. Relaaaaax. You are upset because people are expressing their opinions on a forum? Really? You realize you don't have to subscribe to this thread right?

And why do you keep jumping back to 2007? We are in 2012 heading to 2013. Today the only company practices yearly releases still is DYE. Just like people complained when PE did it, people are upset that DYE is still doing it. Especially when the new releases have the same internals. At least other companies; PE and BL for example; add something new that wasn't in the previous version.

Now if you don't like people expressing their feelings that's fine. But you are no one to tell people that they can't speak their minds. The comments, complaints and concerns of people here have helped to effect the production of the Ego. Why can't it do the same for DYE?
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:38 PM #721
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And you say you arent angry? You sound as if our comments are taking money put of your pocket. Relaaaaax. You are upset because people are expressing their opinions on a forum? Really? You realize you don't have to subscribe to this thread right?

And why do you keep jumping back to 2007? We are in 2012 heading to 2013. Today the only company practices yearly releases still is DYE. Just like people complained when PE did it, people are upset that DYE is still doing it. Especially when the new releases have the same internals. At least other companies; PE and BL for example; add something new that wasn't in the previous version.

Now if you don't like people expressing their feelings that's fine. But you are no one to tell people that they can't speak their minds. The comments, complaints and concerns of people here have helped to effect the production of the Ego. Why can't it do the same for DYE?
I never said I have a problem with people voicing their opinions, and no I am not angry. I'm not getting on pe's case, let dye do what it wants to do. It's not harming anyone for them to do yearly releases. Think of it as one PL milling per year. You can choose to go for the new milled dm13 or the old dm12 used. I have a problem because people are angry at dye, when dye isn't doing any wrong. hell people asked for pl milling, but when they change up the milling on the regular gun they get mad or upset? lol

The funny thing about this all is that I don't even play anymore, I haven't bought a gun in over 4 years.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:48 PM #722
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Originally Posted by randomdean100

I never said I have a problem with people voicing their opinions, and no I am not angry. I'm not getting on pe's case, let dye do what it wants to do. It's not harming anyone for them to do yearly releases. Think of it as one PL milling per year. You can choose to go for the new milled dm13 or the old dm12 used. I have a problem because people are angry at dye, when dye isn't doing any wrong. hell people asked for pl milling, but when they change up the milling on the regular gun they get mad or upset? lol

The funny thing about this all is that I don't even play anymore, I haven't bought a gun in over 4 years.
Yes DYE can do whatever they want. You are absolutely right. And people will either purchase their products or they won't. But that doesn't make it wrong for anyone to express their opinion about what the company is doing. Especially if you are a paying/supporting customer. And it would be wise for any company to, at least, take into consideration the opinions of those customers less it end up with fewer customers. Now am I saying the DM13 won't sell or that DYE is gonna go out of business? No. But I imagine that if their current trend continues when all other companies have stopped some adverse effect will fall upon them.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:37 PM #723
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hell people asked for pl milling, but when they change up the milling on the regular gun they get mad or upset? lol
PL milling stands for private label milling, aka, private label milling, not yearly release milling.

Dye selling a yearly release DM13 is not private label. Private label milling would be something along the lines of a custom milled Nexus DM13 or a custom milled TonTon DM13, not the bull**** stickers and anno treatment they've been getting.

Also, with how defensive you're getting it's an indicator that you're mad.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:30 PM #724
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PL milling stands for private label milling, aka, private label milling, not yearly release milling.

Dye selling a yearly release DM13 is not private label. Private label milling would be something along the lines of a custom milled Nexus DM13 or a custom milled TonTon DM13, not the bull**** stickers and anno treatment they've been getting.

Also, with how defensive you're getting it's an indicator that you're mad.
Not at all, it's called defending a point because none of you have convinced me that your view is superior to mine. If you can actually lay out an argument that I can agree with then I will stop being defensive. I know it's not pl milling, I made an analogy to people wanting pl milling. What's wrong with yearly release milling when pl milling is ok? That's the point I was making. As seen in your trying to argue with me in the proton thread your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking. Soul06 I see your point, I'm not trying to come off as hostile just putting out my view and debating my point. This is nothing more than a friendly debate to me, if you want to correlate my fervently defending my points in a debate with people as me being angry then go ahead; but you'd be wrong.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:42 PM #725
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What's wrong with yearly release milling when pl milling is ok?
PL milling back in the day was okay because it's unique and there's a limited run. If all of the SFT shockers were Dynasty milled they wouldn't have held their value or mattered much at all.

It's not the yearly release milling that's pissing me off, it's the fact that that's all they changed. The reason that current private label milling also sucks is because they change a few swoops and put a new sticker on it, I think that's bull**** as well.

Now, the reason I'm pissed is because the only things they CHANGED from the DM12 are the window milling and the 12 to a 13 and ramped up the price yet again. Planet Eclipse didn't have anything new they could do so they admitted that they would quit. That was my argument from the beginning.

Where you brought in PL milling I don't know, but if my comprehension skills are off then yours are nonexistent.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:46 PM #726
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And you say you arent angry? You sound as if our comments are taking money put of your pocket. Relaaaaax. You are upset because people are expressing their opinions on a forum? Really? You realize you don't have to subscribe to this thread right?

And why do you keep jumping back to 2007? We are in 2012 heading to 2013. Today the only company practices yearly releases still is DYE. Just like people complained when PE did it, people are upset that DYE is still doing it. Especially when the new releases have the same internals. At least other companies; PE and BL for example; add something new that wasn't in the previous version.

Now if you don't like people expressing their feelings that's fine. But you are no one to tell people that they can't speak their minds. The comments, complaints and concerns of people here have helped to effect the production of the Ego. Why can't it do the same for DYE?
You know, Bob Long just released what? Five new G6r cuts? It is still the same gun on the inside, just with different milling. Are you saying that Bob Long is a horrible person and should stop doing what is obviously very lucrative for him?
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:48 PM #727
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Now, the reason I'm pissed is because the only things they CHANGED from the DM12 are the window milling and the 12 to a 13 and ramped up the price yet again. Planet Eclipse didn't have anything new they could do so they admitted that they would quit. That was my argument from the beginning.

Where you brought in PL milling I don't know, but if my comprehension skills are off then yours are nonexistent.
First off, you do realize that things increase in price for many reasons right? How's the price of oil doing compared to last year? The cost of aluminum? Cost of the boards they buy? The eyes? Any or all of these components could have gone up in price due to other economic reasons, therefore increasing the cost of this years release.

And don't even try to question my reading comprehension skills when you blatantly avoided 90% of every post and counterpoint I had to your argument in the proton thread. either you were trying to argue against a strawman in order to try and win, or you really do lack the reading comprehension skills that an adult should have.


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Yeah, because they have custom fabbed microswitches. They most likely get all of their electrical supplies in bulk from a separate company, this company most likely sells microswitches of the same type and size only with reversed activation points. All it would take is for them from now on to order the other kind of switch. What is cheaper, replacing and redesigning the boards and leads on the boards, or changing the type of microswitch they order? By your own argument it is more logical for them to change microswitches instead of the boards design itself... Not to mention as you say if they are milled pcbs instead of etched then it would be even more expensive to change the pcb design and offer board changes than changing the kind of microswitch they use.
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Look, I'm assuming they don't have custom fabbed microswitches, that's why I'm saying it would cost a lot for them to get the custom made even if it's outsourced. Also, if it costs the same for them to build a new microswitch and adds more clutter or the same to change the board up which would not add more clutter, which is more logical?

I never started the microswitch argument, you did.
Proof that you severely lack reading comprehension skills. I very clearly indicated that I wasn't talking about custm fabbed switches, you didn't comprehend it or you out right ignored it. Then the argument of yours I was referencing was you arguing for the most cost efficient method to be implemented, then explained why the microswitch is cheaper than changing the boards. So yes, you do lack comprehension skills.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:58 PM #728
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And don't even try to question my reading comprehension skills when you blatantly avoided 90% of every post and counterpoint I had to your argument in the proton thread. either you were trying to argue against a strawman in order to try and win, or you really do lack the reading comprehension skills that an adult should have.
So you'd rather I'd keep fighting a point I've obviously lost than to just give up and fight what I still believe in?

The thing is that I was selectively arguing what I could, not arguing what I couldn't. You just flat out don't understand what's being put in front of you.

Now, back to explaining private label markers to you.

When you buy a private label marker you're paying for the extra milling. Besides, the reason the DM13 was hiked up in price was because Dye could hike it up for the "new release" of the DM series. Not just because of those factors. When you buy a private label marker nowadays it's just a sad excuse, the amount difference you pay isn't because they had to mill everything differently, it's because they put a few different or less swoops in, some smaller strikes in the metal, and a different sticker or even just laser in a new design whereas the nice PL stuff like the Shockers had everything milled to be unique.

Private label nowadays should be MORE unique than it used to be, not less unique. It's ridiculous what they charge for a "Private label" marker now compared to what you get. They don't boast better performance 99% of the time, and there are hardly ever any changes that you can notice without actively staring at the marker.

You know what, **** it, why do I even care? If they want to rip you for a DM12 with a smaller window, I can't stop you to add that extra 1 onto your DM12. Also, why the hell are we arguing about the DM13 if you don't even play anymore and I'm obviously never even going to buy it?

EDIT: Wow... Way to be.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:00 PM #729
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Now, the reason I'm pissed is because the only things they CHANGED from the DM12 are the window milling and the 12 to a 13 and ramped up the price yet again. Planet Eclipse didn't have anything new they could do so they admitted that they would quit. That was my argument from the beginning.
The price is the same...
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:00 PM #730
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So you'd rather I'd keep fighting a point I've obviously lost than to just give up and fight what I still believe in?

The thing is that I was selectively arguing what I could, not arguing what I couldn't. You just flat out don't understand what's being put in front of you.

Now, back to explaining private label markers to you.
Where do you see the price of the dm13 is hiked? The price of the dm13 is 1299 on ans gear, the price for the dm12 before the 200 dollar discount? Guess what $1299. And protip, selectively choosing individual premises of arguments that you can battle against and ignoring or wrongly discrediting the others is something called a strawman fallacy. something many, many people on this site are guilty of doing.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:03 PM #731
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The price is the same...
Yes, the release price.

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Where do you see the price of the dm13 is hiked? The price of the dm13 is 1299 on ans gear, the price for the dm12 before the 200 dollar discount? Guess what $1299.
Okay, I should have stated it clearly, the DM13 is a DM12 at a higher price. That's what I meant by a hike in price. If you pay $1,299 in 2011 you shouldn't be paying $1,299 in 2012 for the same thing with an added 1 at the end.

Quote:
And protip, selectively choosing individual premises of arguments that you can battle against and ignoring or wrongly discrediting the others is something called a strawman fallacy. something many, many people on this site are guilty of doing.
Or it's called giving up on the other parts of the argument because you know you've lost.

Is it really that hard to realize when somebody has conceded?
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:05 PM #732
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Originally Posted by JohnSherman

You know, Bob Long just released what? Five new G6r cuts? It is still the same gun on the inside, just with different milling. Are you saying that Bob Long is a horrible person and should stop doing what is obviously very lucrative for him?
Don't waste my time with stupid posts like this. I'll bother having an intelligent debate with you when you actually have an intelligent argument.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:07 PM #733
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Okay, I should have stated it clearly, the DM13 is a DM12 at a higher price. That's what I meant by a hike in price. If you pay $1,299 in 2011 you shouldn't be paying $1,299 in 2012 for the same thing with an added 1 at the end.
Except you would be if it were still the latest model. The only reason that the DM12 price dropped is because the DM13 was about to be released. If there was one DM model across several years, it would remain at the 1299 price point.

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Don't waste my time with stupid posts like this. I'll bother having an intelligent debate with you when you actually have an intelligent argument.
Good way to ignore a point you can't counter. I reserve intelligent arguments for people who deserve them. Your central argument is that Dye is bad because they are releasing a gun with the same internals and new milling. Bob Long is doing the same thing. Are you claiming that is different?

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:08 PM #734
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Is it really that hard to realize when somebody has conceded?
Except you still were arguing, you never conceded those premises; so the only thing to assume is that you were avoiding them. lol, maybe someone needs a critical thinking class along with a reading class.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:10 PM #735
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Don't waste my time with stupid posts like this. I'll bother having an intelligent debate with you when you actually have an intelligent argument.
Bro, what the ****? That's just not cool.

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Except you would be if it were still the latest model. The only reason that the DM12 price dropped is because the DM13 was about to be released. If there was one DM model across several years, it would remain at the 1299 price point.
The reason the DM12 price dropped is because the DM13 was about to be released. The DM13 is internally a DM12 in all regards, they just added a number and made a smaller window. That's the point of this entire argument, that they kept the price up even though companies who haven't released new ones haven't kept the price up and have dropped it accordingly.

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Except you still were arguing, you never conceded those premises; so the only thing to assume is that you were avoiding them. lol, maybe someone needs a critical thinking class along with a reading class.
I wasn't arguing the ones that I ignored, not the ones that I had kept arguing. I gave up on the ones that I ignored. That's conceding it.
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  1. No Upping threads. If you have something to say, please do, but don't post in the thread just to take it to the top of the forum.
  2. Do not post "1st post", "1st", "First post" or anything similar (or with any other number) at any point in a thread, even if you post a comment too. It is really annoying and it will result in a ban.
  3. If you don't like something, say why instead of just calling it ugly, lame, gay or any other name. If it is old, simply post a link or report the post with a link to the older News thread.
  4. Please don't post links for places to buy items. That encourages stores, sponsored players and other people to do it and spam the site.
If you have questions, please post them in the Talk to Mods/Admins forum.

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