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Old 11-01-2012, 02:28 PM #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slateman View Post
If AQ is attacking now, its because of the election. Which means they don't want President Obama to get re-elected. Which means they're scared of him.

Not voting for Obama is letting the terrorists win.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:56 PM #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperForce-Duffek View Post
The bottom line, and I think you feel the same, is that those 4 guys were left out to dry without so much as an attempt.
The armed forces, as well as the American public, deserve to know what happened with this situation. We need to know how it transpired, why no attempt was made to stage some sort of immediate response and what should have been done to prevent such a ****ty event.

What doesn't need to happen, and what will ultimately lead to obfuscation of what transpired, is turning the situation into a political hot potato through overwrought sensationalism. The right is treating this whole situation as a sort of silver bullet to the heart of the Obama administration, while the left is pretending as though nothing happened. Neither one of those approaches is the appropriate way of handling the situation.

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I don't mean to be condescending, so please don't take it this way.
I appreciate the sentiment, but if I'm being an ignorant jerkoff then by all means be condescending

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Having a gunship or even a Hornet (about 1 hour away in Sigonella) do a fly-by on the attackers may have been all that was needed to disperse them. Neither aircraft would need to actually fire to "notify" the attackers that they were now outmatched and their game was over.
Maybe, but considering the makeup of the opposing force it's difficult to say. Islamic militants have been known to put their personal fears aside to do some pretty heinous things, and who's to say whether a fly-by would have had any effect on them.

100% pure speculation on my part, but what of part of the goal of this attack was to provoke a response in force by the US, one which would result in civilian collateral damage? We saw how the Libyan public reacted subsequent to the attack by Ansar al-Sharia, so what if this was an attempt to break pro-American sentiments amongst Libyans?
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:49 PM #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
The armed forces, as well as the American public, deserve to know what happened with this situation. We need to know how it transpired, why no attempt was made to stage some sort of immediate response and what should have been done to prevent such a ****ty event.

What doesn't need to happen, and what will ultimately lead to obfuscation of what transpired, is turning the situation into a political hot potato through overwrought sensationalism. The right is treating this whole situation as a sort of silver bullet to the heart of the Obama administration, while the left is pretending as though nothing happened. Neither one of those approaches is the appropriate way of handling the situation.

I agree with this, but, if it's the only way it's going to come to light, then it has to happen. It's not the right answer, but getting to that answer by any means is better than not getting to it at alll.


I appreciate the sentiment, but if I'm being an ignorant jerkoff then by all means be condescending



Maybe, but considering the makeup of the opposing force it's difficult to say. Islamic militants have been known to put their personal fears aside to do some pretty heinous things, and who's to say whether a fly-by would have had any effect on them.

Whether or not a show of force would have worked is debatable. However, when fighting breaks out in ANY country, civilians tend to separate themselves from that fighting. You'd be surprised how accurate a gun ship can be. You don't have to drop 105mm explosives on them, they could have shot some 25mm rounds in the area of the enemy. Danger close missions aren't always recommended, but they do work. Sometimes you have to take risks in order to change the outcome. None were taken here. I think that 'collateral' damage from a gunship is an excuse. The AF can drop a 2000lb Jdamn through a bedroom window. I'll explain this better if I need to.


100% pure speculation on my part, but what of part of the goal of this attack was to provoke a response in force by the US, one which would result in civilian collateral damage? We saw how the Libyan public reacted subsequent to the attack by Ansar al-Sharia, so what if this was an attempt to break pro-American sentiments amongst Libyans?

I don't know where he came up with that idea, but even I don't think it's very likely.
See note above. I'll debate this topic with anyone that has questions, comments or concerns. I don't know economics, but I do know war. This is my area and am more than willing to help paint a better picture for those that are interested in it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:30 PM #592
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I think what happened in Libya was so sudden, unexpected, and with such a small amount of intelligence, it was impossible for our government, regardless of whoever our President is, to make an effective decision that maximized the positive outcome of the situation while minimizing the great risks.

With that said, I'd rather have a president that is patient in times of hardship and waits until a satisfactory amount of information is processed to make a decision, than one who's going to go Rambo and start launching off missiles or dropping bombs at the first sign of trouble. Nothing Obama or Mitt would have done would change the fate of what happened. Obama's patience allowed us to minimize our losses while also maintaining the support we have in the country with the Libyans. In fact, the attack worked against the motives of the attackers, as harsh condemnation was sent from Libyans and much of the Arab world. And like Obama said, in due time, those who committed the crimes are going to be brought to justice.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:33 PM #593
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Did you read anything in the past 20 posts?
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:38 PM #594
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Yea, it was a bunch of nonsensical ramble by far right extremists and far left liberals mindlessly playing the blame game and making no constructive assessment of the situation. I don't want to discuss whether or not Obama directly gave Al Qaeda the go ahead to freely attack the consulate while he rubbed his palms smirking and laughing. I don't take that type of discussion seriously.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:11 PM #595
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Where do you even get that idea to begin with? I'm pretty sure I laid out, as well as the guy in the article, as to the situation that unfolded and the ability to be successful had there been an operation to save those people.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:22 PM #596
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CIA told the two Seals to STAND DOWN, Seals go anyway, Seals die. I don't get it. There were "SUGGESTIONS" they may have had the capability to fly a plane over. Like I said, can we really just start bombing countries as a knee jerk reaction? Do we have that authority to bomb a sovereign nation? Protection of the US consulate is the duty of the host country for a reason.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:53 PM #597
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:26 PM #598
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CIA told the two Seals to STAND DOWN, Seals go anyway, Seals die. I don't get it. There were "SUGGESTIONS" they may have had the capability to fly a plane over. Like I said, can we really just start bombing countries as a knee jerk reaction? Do we have that authority to bomb a sovereign nation? Protection of the US consulate is the duty of the host country for a reason.
Where the **** do you keep getting this whole bomb the country thing? Do you not understand the concept of sending more guys in to have a bigger fighting force on the ground or does that part just escape you entirely?
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:08 AM #599
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I appreciate the sentiment, but if I'm being an ignorant jerkoff then by all means be condescending
You seem like a decent guy, so don't see a reason to treat you otherwise.

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100% pure speculation on my part, but what of part of the goal of this attack was to provoke a response in force by the US, one which would result in civilian collateral damage? We saw how the Libyan public reacted subsequent to the attack by Ansar al-Sharia, so what if this was an attempt to break pro-American sentiments amongst Libyans?
Sure, that is possible. That is why a fly-by first would be preferred to going in guns blazing on the first pass. If that doesn't work, other options could be considered. SFD covered the rest. I don't see how sending in relief troops would be a wrong action in this circumstance.

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Old 11-02-2012, 05:14 AM #600
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Originally Posted by custar View Post
There are posters in this forum who do have combat experience and are well aware of the capabilities of today's military. Having a gunship or even a Hornet (about 1 hour away in Sigonella) do a fly-by on the attackers may have been all that was needed to disperse them. Neither aircraft would need to actually fire to "notify" the attackers that they were now outmatched and their game was over. SFD also noted an aircraft overhead can be an eye-in-the-sky for those on the ground.
Fly-by's are just the Air Force's way of letting the bad guys know that it isn't an A-10 flying overhead, so they can get back to shooting at Americans.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:34 AM #601
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Looks like they were warned 3 hours ahead of time of "militia gathering arms for an attack"

This is starting to be unbelievable...
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:33 AM #602
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This administration and it's media cheerleaders are actively hurting America and most of you don't even realize it.
I keep hearing you blaming "liberal" media so much, but this study has something to show you...

http://www.4thestate.net/liberal-media-bias/

The majority of stations talk negatively about Obama more so than they do about Romney.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:08 PM #603
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I keep hearing you blaming "liberal" media so much, but this study has something to show you...

http://www.4thestate.net/liberal-media-bias/

The majority of stations talk negatively about Obama more so than they do about Romney.
When?
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:58 PM #604
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Weird, because NONE of the big tv networks have covered Benghazi?...

Guess, they are too busy or something... Gotta get their Obama - re-elected, and can't have his cowardice on display.

Where is Obama today? Oh, yeah, people are digging in dumpsters for food, while he is campaigning in Las Vegas... Hope he doesn't bust open a newspaper while he is in town!@!

Ooopsies.

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/benghazi...176736441.html

"When Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney promptly criticized the security failures in Benghazi, the White House and its lapdog media jumped all over him for another "gaffe," for speaking out too promptly and too strongly. Prompt and strong action from the White House on Sept. 11 might have saved American lives, as well as America's reputation as a nation not to be messed with. Weakness and dithering and flying to Las Vegas the next day for celebrity fund-raising parties are somehow better?

This administration is an embarrassment on foreign policy and incompetent at best on the economy - though a more careful analysis shows what can only be a perverse and willful attempt to destroy our prosperity. Back in January 2008, Barack Obama told the editorial board of the San Francisco Chronicle that under his cap-and-trade plan, "If somebody wants to build a coal-fired power plant, they can. It's just that it will bankrupt them." He added, "Under my plan ... electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket." It was also in 2008 that Mr. Obama's future Energy Secretary, Steven Chu, famously said it would be necessary to "figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe" - $9 a gallon.

Yet the president now claims he's in favor of oil development and pipelines, taking credit for increased oil production on private lands where he's powerless to block it, after he halted the Keystone XL Pipeline and oversaw a 50 percent reduction in oil leases on public lands.

These behaviors go far beyond "spin." They amount to a pack of lies. To return to office a narcissistic amateur who seeks to ride this nation's economy and international esteem to oblivion, like Slim Pickens riding the nuclear bomb to its target at the end of the movie "Dr. Strangelove," would be disastrous.

Candidate Obama said if he couldn't fix the economy in four years, his would be a one-term presidency.

Mitt Romney is moral, capable and responsible man. Just this once, it's time to hold Barack Obama to his word. Maybe we can all do something about that, come Tuesday."
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:01 PM #605
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Did you really just write off the entire study with:

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Weird, because NONE of the big tv networks have covered Benghazi?...
You have to be kidding.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:10 PM #606
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Well, I could have gone with...

ONLY ABC covered Fast and furious, and only with limited coverage.

None of the networks have covered Benghazi.

All of the polling done by ABC, CBS, and NBC have used the same demographics from the 2008 election (numbers never seen before who voted democratic) Which is a clear bias, as the 2010 numbers completely shifted the other direction. Why do they use +8 democrats more than republicans in every poll... Unless they are skewing the data to fit a certain desired outlook?... Proof will be next Tuesday when they are proven completely wrong, as Romney will win by 8 percentage points. (my prediction).

Why does a kid who only listens to NPR in the car with her Mommy and never watches TV think that Romney is a greedy bad man?... Unless that is what NPR is spewing every time she is in mommy's car? That would make me cry too.

Why did the media not cover Obama's past? No one knew who he was before he was elected? In the past the media would cover stuff like that... Oh wait.

Who funded the study? What are their political leanings?


AND MOST important, they study weighs ALL talk radio as equal compared to TV coverage... Seriously, you can't make up a skew like that... Talk radio is on ALL DAY LONG, and National TV news is on for 1 hour at night. But, the people that listen to talk radio aren't the same as the people that watch TV for their news. So you can't weigh those two things the same...

Unless you want to skew the data...


Oh wait... That is exactly what they want to do.


Feel better?
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:12 PM #607
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From 5-1 to 7-15 2012. All the data for this was from those 76 days. What else happened in those 76 days...

Oh statistics, you slithery *****, you got me again!
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:18 PM #608
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Well, I could have gone with...

ONLY ABC covered Fast and furious, and only with limited coverage.

None of the networks have covered Benghazi.

All of the polling done by ABC, CBS, and NBC have used the same demographics from the 2008 election (numbers never seen before who voted democratic) Which is a clear bias, as the 2010 numbers completely shifted the other direction. Why do they use +8 democrats more than republicans in every poll... Unless they are skewing the data to fit a certain desired outlook?... Proof will be next Tuesday when they are proven completely wrong, as Romney will win by 8 percentage points. (my prediction).

Why does a kid who only listens to NPR in the car with her Mommy and never watches TV think that Romney is a greedy bad man?... Unless that is what NPR is spewing every time she is in mommy's car? That would make me cry too.

Why did the media not cover Obama's past? No one knew who he was before he was elected? In the past the media would cover stuff like that... Oh wait.

Who funded the study? What are their political leanings?


AND MOST important, they study weighs ALL talk radio as equal compared to TV coverage... Seriously, you can't make up a skew like that... Talk radio is on ALL DAY LONG, and National TV news is on for 1 hour at night. But, the people that listen to talk radio aren't the same as the people that watch TV for their news. So you can't weigh those two things the same...

Unless you want to skew the data...


Oh wait... That is exactly what they want to do.


Feel better?
I'm sorry. I engaged you and I shouldn't have. Also, I will never take you seriously, until you learn to type like a non-idiot.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:21 PM #609
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Hmm, can't debate the facts, so runs right to the ad hominem.


SHOCKING. Lol. Lemme guess, you voted for Obama, both times?
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