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Old 10-17-2012, 11:24 AM #64
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Originally Posted by RLN View Post
That is true. Yet the same God who said that 5 chapters later in Exodus commands Moses that statues be made. "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be." - Exodus 25:18-20 This was decorations/images...statues! being made for the Ark of the Covenant.

Later when the Israelites became sick in the desert (because of their whining and ungratefulness and sins towards God) God told Moses: "And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." Which by the way is why the serpent on the pole has been associated as a symbol in the medical field.

"Under its brim were gourds, for thirty cubits, compassing the sea round about; the gourds were in two rows, cast with it when it was cast. It stood upon twelve oexen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward." - 1Kings 7:24-25 Here you have a description of Solomon's temple and if you keep reading the verses you will see that it was packed with every kind of image and ornament.

Make no mistake, the Catholic Church believes that idolatry is wrong. But simply having statues or pictures of Jesus, angels, and saints is not idolatry. It is art and it's a way to express our reverance towards God and to honor holy men and women who have lived lives worthy to emulate because they gave their all to God. If having a statue is idolatry then so is having a picture of your family and loved ones in your wallet, in your home, and in your computer. So is having a statue of any important figure for that matter so that includes national monuments and public and state statues.

It's clear in Scripture that the religious use of statues is not prohibited, but the ABUSE of worshiping them as gods is. Statues and images like the veil in Exodus 26:31 are visible reminders of invisible realities. "And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; in skilled work shalle it be made, with cherubim;" -Exodus 26:31

Hope that helps.
It doesn't help. The Ark was never intended to be worshiped. Neither was the staff or temple you mentioned. Keeping it simple I'll also point out that nowhere in the bible does it say that Christians should pray to Mary.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:54 PM #65
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hey all. please pry for me. I dont like asking for prayers but i feel that this is some what important.

It has been brought to my attn (by alot of my fam) that I guess I am always grumpy or in a bad mood and I seem to not get out of it. I dont see it that way but others do. I dont like being this way. I dont want my kids to think im some mean guy at all. I dont yell, i dont hit or spank, I just im just short fused and easily irritated. anyways, thanks, and prayers for those who are in need and even who arent.

dan
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:18 PM #66
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Originally Posted by tbaggin View Post
hey all. please pry for me. I dont like asking for prayers but i feel that this is some what important.

It has been brought to my attn (by alot of my fam) that I guess I am always grumpy or in a bad mood and I seem to not get out of it. I dont see it that way but others do. I dont like being this way. I dont want my kids to think im some mean guy at all. I dont yell, i dont hit or spank, I just im just short fused and easily irritated. anyways, thanks, and prayers for those who are in need and even who arent.

dan
I'm on it bro. It might be too soon to say, but sleep has a LOT to do with your mood.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:05 PM #67
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People have a lot to do with my mood.

Praying, Dan.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:01 PM #68
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I see what you did there, but not properly answering.
You are basically asking me to prove my point first before you prove yours.
You need to support your view since you made the claim first about Sola Scriptura not being found in the Bible.

I even rephrased the question for you to support your views and have a platform from where we can start. I would like to see where you base your views that
1) Sola Scriptura is unbiblical (which means the Bible speaks against it -directly or indirectly).
2) Other materials to support your views.

Lets start from there.
Seriously Will I can't believe you've not quoted a single Bible verse to even defend Sola Scriptura. And we're talking about the "Bible Alone" doctrine that many non-Catholic Christians hold as one of the core tenets of their faith. Perhaps because Scripture does not defend this position.

Let me ask this: What does the Bible say is the pillar and ground of truth for Christians?

Will we can go in circles or perhaps you can start defending this position by using the Bible to answer that question. I mean unless I misinterpreted your position you believe the Bible is the pillar of Christian teaching and authority correct?
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:19 PM #69
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Originally Posted by $h@key J0nEZ View Post
It doesn't help. The Ark was never intended to be worshiped. Neither was the staff or temple you mentioned. Keeping it simple I'll also point out that nowhere in the bible does it say that Christians should pray to Mary.
Okay first things first, I said earlier that Catholics believe idolatry is wrong. Your statement that the Ark and Solomon's temple was never meant to be worshipped only means you believe that Catholics worship statues. That is a false belief proprogated by centuries of anti-catholicism. Catholics do not worship statues and if any of them do then they are committing idolatry. As I said earlier having statues, paintings, and art for religious purposes is not wrong as clearly shown in the Bible. It's when these things are abused and worshipped as gods that there's a problem.

With regards to praying to Mary first of all let's make it clear that when we pray to Mary or any other saint we are asking them to intercede for us just as we ask other people here in the Christ Krew thread to pray for us. Let's not confuse the word "pray" here. When we say pray to the saints we are talking in the context of: “I pray thee, brothers and sisters, pray for me.” Not in the context of actually praying to any person of the triune God.

Answer this for me: Is God the God of the living or the dead?
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:24 PM #70
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Originally Posted by tbaggin View Post
hey all. please pry for me. I dont like asking for prayers but i feel that this is some what important.

It has been brought to my attn (by alot of my fam) that I guess I am always grumpy or in a bad mood and I seem to not get out of it. I dont see it that way but others do. I dont like being this way. I dont want my kids to think im some mean guy at all. I dont yell, i dont hit or spank, I just im just short fused and easily irritated. anyways, thanks, and prayers for those who are in need and even who arent.

dan
Praying for you Dan. I'd also like to ask for the intercessions of everyone here for my 6 month old daughter. She's been running a fever since yesterday and today my wife is taking her into the doctor. It was rough night trying to get rest. Please pray for my wife too as she is exhausted having to watch our two kids yesterday plus a nephew and she is a few months pregnant.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:45 PM #71
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Seriously Will I can't believe you've not quoted a single Bible verse to even defend Sola Scriptura. And we're talking about the "Bible Alone" doctrine that many non-Catholic Christians hold as one of the core tenets of their faith. Perhaps because Scripture does not defend this position.

Let me ask this: What does the Bible say is the pillar and ground of truth for Christians?

Will we can go in circles or perhaps you can start defending this position by using the Bible to answer that question. I mean unless I misinterpreted your position you believe the Bible is the pillar of Christian teaching and authority correct?
Ok. See that? I keep asking for you to post your defense and you keep telling me I need to post mine first.
I could very easily tell you the same thing about your supposed stance.

What I am TRYING to do is to set a basis for dialog following the debate guidelines (you make a claim, then you back it up).

But. I see that you are not a willing participant on this.
SO. Let me do this for you.

I will post some passages for MY stance and WITHOUT comment from you: post your passages to support YOUR stance after.

THEN, we can begin to discuss what merits what. Sounds good to you?
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:50 PM #72
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Praying for you Dan. I'd also like to ask for the intercessions of everyone here for my 6 month old daughter. She's been running a fever since yesterday and today my wife is taking her into the doctor. It was rough night trying to get rest. Please pray for my wife too as she is exhausted having to watch our two kids yesterday plus a nephew and she is a few months pregnant.
I will get on this!
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:00 PM #73
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Ok. See that? I keep asking for you to post your defense and you keep telling me I need to post mine first.
I could very easily tell you the same thing about your supposed stance.

What I am TRYING to do is to set a basis for dialog following the debate guidelines (you make a claim, then you back it up).

But. I see that you are not a willing participant on this.
SO. Let me do this for you.

I will post some passages for MY stance and WITHOUT comment from you: post your passages to support YOUR stance after.

THEN, we can begin to discuss what merits what. Sounds good to you?
Okay maybe your not understanding my response. Or perhaps I should just re-word it. The Bible does not support DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Or try this: There is nothing in the Bible that mentions the doctrine of Sola Scriptura at all. That is my claim. It doesn't need to be backed up any further because the simple fact is it's not in the Bible. Even implicitly Sola Scriptura is not there.

Unless you have an actual counter argument that states why Sola Scriptura is in the Bible I can't state anything further. Do you understand where I'm coming from now?
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:02 PM #74
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I will get on this!
Thanks Wil.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:09 PM #75
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Okay maybe your not understanding my response. Or perhaps I should just re-word it. The Bible does not support DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Or try this: There is nothing in the Bible that mentions the doctrine of Sola Scriptura at all. That is my claim. It doesn't need to be backed up any further because the simple fact is it's not in the Bible. Even implicitly Sola Scriptura is not there.

Unless you have an actual counter argument that states why Sola Scriptura is in the Bible I can't state anything further. Do you understand where I'm coming from now?
I DO understand. But do you see what you are saying. On the one hand you claim the Bible to be God's Word, but you don't claim it to have authority in of its own. That's completely contradictory!

Ok. Next step, I will post some verses from The Bible to support it. Which should be inconceivable to you. Haha.

Gimme some time. It's dinner time for us here and my wife has discipleship after so it's three kids under my watch (and they wonder why I have so much gray hair! )
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:13 PM #76
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I DO understand. But do you see what you are saying. On the one hand you claim the Bible to be God's Word, but you don't claim it to have authority in of its own. That's completely contradictory!

Ok. Next step, I will post some verses from The Bible to support it. Which should be inconceivable to you. Haha.

Gimme some time. It's dinner time for us here and my wife has discipleship after so it's three kids under my watch (and they wonder why I have so much gray hair! )
Why not just state that in the first place!

Look forward to the Bible verses.

Update: Doctor says because my daughter is alert (smiling, grabbing things, etc) she does not need any antibiotics. If the fever continues tomorrow we'll have to bring her in the following day for some further testing. Praise God! and thanks for everyones prayers.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:19 PM #77
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Why not just state that in the first place!

Look forward to the Bible verses.

Update: Doctor says because my daughter is alert (smiling, grabbing things, etc) she does not need any antibiotics. If the fever continues tomorrow we'll have to bring her in the following day for some further testing. Praise God! and thanks for everyones prayers.
Glad she's doing alright.

And I was thinking you were post up some pope quotes or some ecclesiastical bull (papal bull) stating that as fact, that's why.
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:23 PM #78
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Glad she's doing alright.

And I was thinking you were post up some pope quotes or some ecclesiastical bull (papal bull) stating that as fact, that's why.
Haha...fair enough....I think we can just stick to Holy Scripture and maybe a few historical references including writings from Early Christians.

I'll stay away from Papal Bulls and Encyclicals
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:14 PM #79
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Dan I know this is late but I will pray for you brother because that is something I had a difficulty with actually. I was a man who had no patients at all with people...especially when I was hungry. Even though I was patient God, gently slapped in my face and taught me I wasn't at all. It is interesting what God gives us as weaknesses. I will pray for you and brother one of the biggest things I did was pray dangerous prayers. A dangerous prayer is asking God to do something in your life! And my prayer long ago was for Him to show me what I was lacking and to help me see it with humbleness and this was okay as long as God taught me and gave me people to help me with my faults.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:42 PM #80
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Okay first things first, I said earlier that Catholics believe idolatry is wrong. Your statement that the Ark and Solomon's temple was never meant to be worshipped only means you believe that Catholics worship statues. That is a false belief proprogated by centuries of anti-catholicism. Catholics do not worship statues and if any of them do then they are committing idolatry. As I said earlier having statues, paintings, and art for religious purposes is not wrong as clearly shown in the Bible. It's when these things are abused and worshipped as gods that there's a problem.

With regards to praying to Mary first of all let's make it clear that when we pray to Mary or any other saint we are asking them to intercede for us just as we ask other people here in the Christ Krew thread to pray for us. Let's not confuse the word "pray" here. When we say pray to the saints we are talking in the context of: “I pray thee, brothers and sisters, pray for me.” Not in the context of actually praying to any person of the triune God.

Answer this for me: Is God the God of the living or the dead?
The scripture you refer to is Mark 12:27. The bible also says John 5:25 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. This tells me he is God of the dead and the living. Revelation 1:18 - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Where in the bible does Christ instruct you to pray to Mary or the saints? Aren't there thousands of saints? Isn't it presumptuous of the Catholic church to assume they are all in heaven when the bible says John 5:22 - Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son? How exactly would you know for sure if you were praying to someone in hell or not? I don't believe our Father needs anyone to "intercede prayers" for Him. Besides most of the saints fell asleep in the garden anyways. Not very reliable if you ask me.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:37 PM #81
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The scripture you refer to is Mark 12:27. The bible also says John 5:25 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. This tells me he is God of the dead and the living. Revelation 1:18 - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Where in the bible does Christ instruct you to pray to Mary or the saints? Aren't there thousands of saints? Isn't it presumptuous of the Catholic church to assume they are all in heaven when the bible says John 5:22 - Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son? How exactly would you know for sure if you were praying to someone in hell or not? I don't believe our Father needs anyone to "intercede prayers" for Him. Besides most of the saints fell asleep in the garden anyways. Not very reliable if you ask me.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:49 AM #82
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Morning all I have been incredibly busy lately and havent had time pbnation sooo... here are the names of the individuals who contacted me about joining and met the requirements stickinj21, EMPIIr, Masher1, HLG Apocalyptic if someone could post them I would appreciate it.... Real sorry on the delay guys Markcheb is taking over screening so it should be done in a more timely fashion in the future. If your name is not on the list and you contacted me that means either A. you still had some info i needed and I forwarded your request to Mark or B. I missed your pm and I would request that you pm Mark. No one to my knowledge contacted me and didnt meet the requirements so again I apologize for the weeks or months you have waited for a response...
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:01 AM #83
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Morning all I have been incredibly busy lately and havent had time pbnation sooo... here are the names of the individuals who contacted me about joining and met the requirements stickinj21, EMPIIr, Masher1, HLG Apocalyptic...




BTW, for anyone that is wondering, it's an abbreviation for "sticking to Jesus". Long story of how I got there, but it works.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:38 AM #84
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The scripture you refer to is Mark 12:27. The bible also says John 5:25 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. This tells me he is God of the dead and the living. Revelation 1:18 - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Where in the bible does Christ instruct you to pray to Mary or the saints? Aren't there thousands of saints? Isn't it presumptuous of the Catholic church to assume they are all in heaven when the bible says John 5:22 - Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son? How exactly would you know for sure if you were praying to someone in hell or not? I don't believe our Father needs anyone to "intercede prayers" for Him. Besides most of the saints fell asleep in the garden anyways. Not very reliable if you ask me.

Since you did not bring up anything else regarding the use of statues for religious purposes I take it we can move on. Hopefully you understand now that Catholics do not worship statues as others falsely accuse us of doing.

Let's continue. Yes I am referring to the Gospel of Mark. In Mark 12:26-27 it says: “As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, [the] God of Isaac, and [the] God of Jacob’? v27 “He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.” I included verse 26 because it drives the point more than just saying verse 27.

A similar verse can also be found in Matthew 22:31-32. “And concerning the
resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Read the verse before John 5:25 but I don’t think it talks about God being the God of the dead and the living. If you read the verse right before it says “Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life” So when we die in sanctifying grace we gain life not death.

In Matthew 17: 1-4 it says: “After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him. Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

First of all it’s clear that God is the God of the living as Scripture tells us. Next, it’s clear that there are holy men and women in Heaven as shown in Matthew 17:1-4. Now I never said the Father needs someone to intercede for Him. What I said is that we are asking other the saints in heaven to intercede for us. Just like we ask christians or saints here on earth to intercede for us. This in no way takes away from the truth that Jesus is the one true Mediator. In fact scripture encourages us to pray for one another which we see numerous examples (Matt 5:4, 1 Tim 2:1-4, Rom 15:30-31 to name a few) Furthermore God answers the prayers of the righteous. "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" -James. 5:16–18. The christians or saints in heaven are even more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence, than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more effective. Hebrews 12:22-23 “ No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect”

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. In Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us.

In the book of Revelation: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" -Revelation 8:3-4

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" Revelation. 5:8.

The reality is my friend as Revelations 5:8 shows us the saints in heaven
offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
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