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Old 10-15-2012, 01:02 PM #64
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It means that its more of a hindrance to new products than a safety net to prevent the bad ones.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:18 PM #65
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
And... you both ignored my critical point: "no one is forcing anyone to use any of these products"



Yeah, you're right, I don't have a degree in biomedical engineering or a need to jump through all the bull**** hoops the FDA puts out while I'm trying to develop cool new tools for the doctors to fix you with. Here's a fun fact for you: if you doctor wants to use something, he can just write a prescription for it and use it on you, FDA be damned. Regulate it all you want and there's still a back-door.

I never said there should be no regulation, just that FDA is too big. And 'in my fantasy world' people are responsible for their own well-being, they are dependent upon big brother to cut up their noodles so they don't choke.
No one is forcing people to use these products, but they certainly are tricking them. What if a product was really good? How would you know if so many bull**** products were allowed to circulate in the market? You would be wary of things that are too good to be true. Also there are posts from the same thread in reddit that were talking about professional raters of companies online. They give the companies a ****ty score, even though they have good customer service and a great product, then tell them to pay up to get better ratings. It can tilt the opposite way. My brother looked for a good AC repairman. He picked the wrong one because the ratings were bull****.

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Old 10-15-2012, 01:19 PM #66
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All I had to do was type "resveratrol" into google and got this link. I can read just the first paragraph to know that there is nothing conclusively positive about the use of said substance.

Furthermore, if I was interested in using said substance (outside of the presciption of a doctor), I would further vette the manufacturer I was getting said substance from to make sure I was actually getting what I thought I was.

It's easy to say "the government should check them out for me", that's why sheep call for more regulation. Responsible people know that they should look out for themselves, even if it's a little bit harder.
You consider Wikipedia a reputable source? There's lots published from Harvard in teir 1 journals that suggest it might work. GSK believed in it to the tune of 800million a few years ago. My point is, how do you know it does or doesn't work without blinded clinical trials overseen by a watchdog.

How would you vette the manufacturer? I have access to a mass spec at work so I can check things out myself, but most people don't have a $500k machine at their disposal.

Pharmaceuticals are a blind item that need some consumer protection whether you like it or not. We live in a well regulated country so you take for granted that when you get amoxicillin at the drug store it's really the correct dose and drug. The fear of an FDA audit makes manufacturers think twice before deviating from a process.

I've brought drugs back from orphanages in Africa to test with my equipment here, and it explained why the kids weren't responding to their TB drugs. Some of the pills had no active drug, some were the wrong dose, some were correct. They were purhased from the same in country pharmacy and were brand name. How do you know what you're buying without a decent police force watching out for you? I know Africa and America are very different with their own problems, but its a good example of what happens in regulated vs unregulated. I just know that I have high confidence that what I'm buying is correct here in the regulated USA.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:28 PM #67
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This is equally as arrogant.
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. I am not saying that regulation prevents all harm. I am saying that the necessary "rev-up" harm involved in public protest type prevention does not exist in a properly regulated system.

Quote:
Regulationless: I make a new drug that no one tests and release it to the market. 1000 people die. Someone linked it to my drug. People choose to avoid my drug and my business fails. I stop making the drug and no more people die.
Quote:
Regulation: I make a new drug and someone tests it (on rats). It is determined to be deadly and not released to the market.
In both scenarios, the drug is eventually disallowed from the market. In a situation with regulation, no one dies and a deadly drug is removed much quicker. Does that make sense?
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:32 PM #68
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Every citizen having to test and look up every consumable in the market sounds like it would be really costly.

If only some sort of regulatory entity existed that could do it for us...
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:38 PM #69
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This straw-man about advocates for a free market want no regulation needs to stop. It's not "no-regulation" its government regulation.

I'm sick and tired of hearing people advocate for more government regulation when you have **** faces like Michael Taylor heading the FDA. I don't feel safer knowing a head lobbyist for Monsanto is now in charge of the FDA.
So how does the head lobbyist to the FDA for a company become the head of the FDA? Was he hanging around their offices long enough one day and BOOM! "Want a job, guy?" ??
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:17 PM #70
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
And... you both ignored my critical point: "no one is forcing anyone to use any of these products"



Yeah, you're right, I don't have a degree in biomedical engineering or a need to jump through all the bull**** hoops the FDA puts out while I'm trying to develop cool new tools for the doctors to fix you with. Here's a fun fact for you: if you doctor wants to use something, he can just write a prescription for it and use it on you, FDA be damned. Regulate it all you want and there's still a back-door.

I never said there should be no regulation, just that FDA is too big. And 'in my fantasy world' people are responsible for their own well-being, they aren't dependent upon big brother to cut up their noodles so they don't choke.
FYI: GSK just got fined $3billion for suggesting that doctors prescribe their drugs off label.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:45 PM #71
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I'm not going to quote each one of you making points for more or less regulations or the means of regulation. But really, its not as if if the government doesn't do it no one will or that the agencies will be bribe central.

First of all, it takes a lot longer to build a good reputation than to destroy one, by that I mean for a company to give their seal of approval and for that approval to be worth something, they would need to build a credible rapport on many different products and companies. If they are discovered to being approving things because of kickbacks, eventually they get caught and their credibility ruined. And remember, there will be multiple agencies vying for reputation and market share. A competitor can exploit the fact that a company was dishonest or fraudulent.

The incentive to make a good safe product is always present in a free market. Does that mean it is perfect and that no one will ever sell bull**** or a bad/faulty product? No I never claimed it would. Some of these arguments are nonsense "a diner selling poison to costumers just long enough for enough people to get sick and die from to file suit" Why in the world would a business want to deliberately hurt their costumer base. Its in their best interest to make sure they provide a good/service to keep costumers coming back and reputation high.

One last point I want to make is, its not like people would be exempt from fraud or negligence or tort lawsuits for damages. If I claim some homemade snake oil cures cancer, I'd have to have some kind of proof or I can't make that claim as it is fraud.

Jeffrey Tucker is my favorite writer and speaker on the subject so I will leave this hear to discuss further in depth and more eloquently than myself (also with Robert Murphy).

http://media.mises.org/mp3/interviews/murphy1.mp3

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So how does the head lobbyist to the FDA for a company become the head of the FDA? Was he hanging around their offices long enough one day and BOOM! "Want a job, guy?" ??
TBH not sure, but he isn't the only one that may or may not have a conflict of interest.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:25 AM #72
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OP is fail because it fails to acknowledge that people in government will also do whatever they can get away with to make a buck.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:42 AM #73
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OP is fail because it fails to acknowledge that people in government will also do whatever they can get away with to make a buck.
It's okay to do bad things if someone else is doing it too.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:27 PM #74
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OP is fail because it fails to acknowledge that people in government will also do whatever they can get away with to make a buck.
I take it you don't know many government workers.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:34 AM #75
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I'm not going to quote each one of you making points for more or less regulations or the means of regulation. But really, its not as if if the government doesn't do it no one will or that the agencies will be bribe central.

The incentive to make a good safe product is always present in a free market. Does that mean it is perfect and that no one will ever sell bull**** or a bad/faulty product? No I never claimed it would. Some of these arguments are nonsense "a diner selling poison to costumers just long enough for enough people to get sick and die from to file suit" Why in the world would a business want to deliberately hurt their costumer base. Its in their best interest to make sure they provide a good/service to keep costumers coming back and reputation high.

One last point I want to make is, its not like people would be exempt from fraud or negligence or tort lawsuits for damages. If I claim some homemade snake oil cures cancer, I'd have to have some kind of proof or I can't make that claim as it is fraud.
In the ideal world of the economist this may be the case, but in the real world I don't believe it is. The market pressures inside a company are very different from those outside. The board of directors wants to make investors happy by making money producing a product people will buy. In the beginning they do just that. At some point that product can no longer sustain the double digit year/year growth that investors demand. Thus profit margins begin to shrink.

The board puts pressure on the officers to increase profit margins even though said company still makes money. The easiest levers they have to pull are usually those that indirectly effect quality of said product. They put pressure on middle managment to produce more with less. In essence the **** flows downhill. Any job done by 2 people can be done by 1 for half the price. Etc.

Lower level employees (that actually make the product) are more stressed with the fewer resources, scared for their jobs and less likely to admit mistakes or report problems out of fear. Problems that are noticed are less likely to make it to the top.

Yes. Large companies don't start out with the goal of poisoning people, but over time human nature to value short term gain over long term growth engenders a corporate culture that fosters these problems.

Yes health food stores are full of snake oil and it's big business. The infomercials at night are even better. They rarely make direct claims So it's difficult to go after them. They don't kill anyone because poison is more expensive than starch. Every few years it's a new fad backed by scientific research. The red wine/resveratrol weight loss live longer thing is the recent one, but a new one is on the horizon. How do I prove that I didn't live longer in a court case? In the past it was vitamin c, fish oil, echinacea, the list goes on. Hell, I once had a guy at a health food store try to convince me that I wasn't getting enough DNA in my diet. I thought it was so funny I bought the bottle and keep in on my desk. They still sell it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:25 AM #76
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Seems like an old argument. I remember a painting, there were two Greeks. One pointed towards the heavens, the other towards the ground.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:38 AM #77
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I'm missing the reference. What story is that?
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:58 AM #78
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_School_of_Athens





Is man inherently good?
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:31 AM #79
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:00 AM #80
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I think so, too.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:01 AM #81
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Quote:
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Is man inherently good?
Does man define what is both "inherent" and "good"?
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:03 AM #82
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:50 PM #83
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Is man inherently good?
If they are allowed to function within an adequately stable civil society, yes.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:51 PM #84
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If they are allowed to function within an adequately stable civil society, yes.
Man wasn't good when they were in paradise...
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