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Old 10-15-2012, 03:25 PM #253
randomdean
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
Well, guess what? Your power in the situation is the same as everyone else...if you don't like it, don't play there.
Benefits of being sentient, conscious, beings with free will is that our power in this situation is our freedom to voice our opinions on the matterr. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that I view his business practices as unethical, I'm completely in the right in voicing my opinion on his business and what I derive about his character from how I view his responses. I'm sure you Canadians also respect the rights to freedom of speech and thought.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:43 PM #254
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Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar
Field economics cannot be shrunk down the price of a case of paint. Case vs Case is too narrow.

Try looking at the Expenses/income on a monthly basis, or better yet a yearly basis...

Your field "A" that sells paint at $45 a case may sell 10, 20, 30...times more paint in a year than the field "B"

Ignoring the factor of bulk buying discounts... If Field "B" still has all the same operating costs (excluding paint cost) at field "A" (Unlikely, no two fields will ever be equal in operating costs) then at the end of the year both fields may have only brought in a similar amount of income to cover their similar costs.

If 30 people go to field "A" and spend $60 and 30 people go to field "B" and spend $60 then both fields are bringing in the same money...

HOW the field gets the player to spend that $60 is up to them, encourage high volume through low priced paint or Low volume through Higher priced paint or Moderate volume with moderate priced paint...Either way the player is going to spend roughly the same amount at either field.

"But the basic package including 500 balls only cost $30 at my field..." My question to that is how many people ONLY use that 500 and do not buy more? Say that is the case with all the rentals...(Unlikely) What about the regulars? Does every single regular only shoot 500 rounds? Not likely.
You clearly didn't understand any of what was said in that math.

If field a sells 500 at 45.

And field b sells 2000 at 45.

Field a is netting a larger profit margin PER case, and if both fields pull in equal numbers of players. Field a is going to make more income because for every case sold in total at A they have made 4x as much as B per case sold.

It's not rocket science.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:06 PM #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomdean View Post
Benefits of being sentient, conscious, beings with free will is that our power in this situation is our freedom to voice our opinions on the matterr.
I am unconvinced you're receiving the full benefits of these things you're speaking of.

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with pointing out that I view his business practices as unethical,
Except that your reasoning is specious...but don't let being wrong stop you.

Quote:
I'm completely in the right in voicing my opinion on his business and what I derive about his character from how I view his responses.
There's a significant different between *having* a right, and being right. You certainly have the former, but you're kidding yourself about the latter. His character is on great display...he's showing several orders of magnitude more than you are.

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I'm sure you Canadians also respect the rights to freedom of speech and thought.
In what's sure to be a shocking development, given how *awesome* your powers of not-leaping-to-ridiculous-conclusions have been so far....nope, not Canadian.

I'll clue you in to where I am from by leaving you with a quote from my home-state homey, Abraham Lincoln:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
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Last edited by universal_dave : 10-15-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:17 PM #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byarosh201 View Post
You clearly didn't understand any of what was said in that math.

If field a sells 500 at 45.

And field b sells 2000 at 45.

Field a is netting a larger profit margin PER case, and if both fields pull in equal numbers of players. Field a is going to make more income because for every case sold in total at A they have made 4x as much as B per case sold.

It's not rocket science.
Yes, it's not rocket science, and yet you still get it wrong. Your "conclusion" doesn't actually follow from your points.

Your conclusion only holds if you *assume* that the two fields go through the same amount of paint. If "field A" goes through *less* paint than "field b", the cost to players for the day could well be very comparable and the "profit" between the two fields may be similar as well.

Given that Horizon has said *repeatedly* that folks at his field shoot less, this would seem to be a *very* likely scenario.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:33 PM #257
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
Yes, it's not rocket science, and yet you still get it wrong. Your "conclusion" doesn't actually follow from your points.

Your conclusion only holds if you *assume* that the two fields go through the same amount of paint. If "field A" goes through *less* paint than "field b", the cost to players for the day could well be very comparable and the "profit" between the two fields may be similar as well.

Given that Horizon has said *repeatedly* that folks at his field shoot less, this would seem to be a *very* likely scenario.
How many players are buying paint, or how little paint he buys for his field is completely irrelevant, and you know it.

You keep on casting about for more and more explanations for his prices when the basic math proves your position is a fallacy. First it's that he may have a higher wholesale price. Then it's the amount of players that show up. Then it's how much paint he sells a day. None of these things have any effect on the simple fact that HE IS MARKING UP HIS CASES WAY TOO HIGH.

If you can't understand the simple math that supports what we're saying, then you're a certifiable moron.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:16 PM #258
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
I'll clue you in to where I am from by leaving you with a quote from my home-state homey, Abraham Lincoln:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Half of that was pointed to horizon in explanation. And Abe lincoln is my home state homie. He grew up in Indiana not illinois. I never said my opinions were right, I said I was within my rights voicing my opinions. Not sure how you think you're totally right either given that everything you have said is also based on little to no facts about his specific fields situation. We're both speculating.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:51 PM #259
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Blah blah blah blah blah.



Good fields charge $30-50 for air, field and one bag of paint.

Horizon charges $75.

Good fields charge $50-$80 for one case of paint.

Horizon charges $180.

Good fields charge $15 for a bag.

Horizon charges $45.






Anymore questions?
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:26 PM #260
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yes, How many bags or cases of paint does your average player at said "good" field buy?

vs How many does the average player at Horizon's field buy?
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:30 PM #261
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Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
How many players are buying paint, or how little paint he buys for his field is completely irrelevant, and you know it.

You keep on casting about for more and more explanations for his prices when the basic math proves your position is a fallacy. First it's that he may have a higher wholesale price. Then it's the amount of players that show up. Then it's how much paint he sells a day. None of these things have any effect on the simple fact that HE IS MARKING UP HIS CASES WAY TOO HIGH.

If you can't understand the simple math that supports what we're saying, then you're a certifiable moron.
How is how much paint a customer buys and how many customers a field has buying that amount of paint irrelevant? Let's take it to extremes. Let's say a field has 5000% markup on a case of paint. But each customer only buys 10 paintballs per day. But the field still has all the other expenses associated with having people play paintball at their field. With your "simple" math, this field would be making 50 times more than a field with a 100% markup on a case of paint. But in fact, any simpleton would be able to tell you that this field wouldn't be able to afford to stay open a single day due to all the money they would be losing. Your "simple' math that focuses on markup and little else is , well....simple. And wrong.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:39 PM #262
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Originally Posted by randomdean View Post
I'm not having a hard time at all with this. I'm not disputing that it doesn't work, I'm disputing his methods when there are far more ethical ways of achieving the same effect. I've been purposefully ignoring half of his arguments because he still has been ignoring half of my points. He still hasn't commented on the why he can't do a set limit on paint sales, why he can't move the extra charge that helps keep his, expensive(his words not mine), field afloat to the field fee(isn't that what the field fee is supposed to do? Be the cash that is supposed to be used to cover running expenses).
Just because many fields price their field fees more closely than you describe doesn't mean that is the only way to do business. ALL fields that sell paintball do in fact use much of those profits to cover some of their other overhead other than the cost of the paintballs (otherwise they would not need to mark them up at all). This is also used in virtually every retail business in the world. McDonalds doesn't charge you rent for the table you sit at, rent for the parking spot, have pay toilets. It's all covered by the markup on their burgers, fries and drinks. Maybe you've been in a restaurant and noticed this for yourself.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:16 PM #263
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
Yes, it's not rocket science, and yet you still get it wrong. Your "conclusion" doesn't actually follow from your points.

Your conclusion only holds if you *assume* that the two fields go through the same amount of paint. If "field A" goes through *less* paint than "field b", the cost to players for the day could well be very comparable and the "profit" between the two fields may be similar as well.

Given that Horizon has said *repeatedly* that folks at his field shoot less, this would seem to be a *very* likely scenario.
Except the field I work at charges $40 for a bag, entry, air, etc.. and all usually only shoot that bag with the occasional exception....
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:21 PM #264
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Okay Horizon, it comes down to this.

Lets completely ignore what your individual prices are. They don't matter, so lets disregard them.

Instead, lets determine how much a person is going to write you a check for when they leave.


You've already said that the average player is going to buy about a bag of paint. Most are probably going to need rentals as well.

So a bag of paint is $45 and the fees are $30.

So the average person is going to spend $75 playing on your field.

On my field, the same package is $30 total. But lets go somewhere else since apparently you think that paintballing in Georgia is a million times different than paintballing in BC. Even though you are charging 250% more and we all know that you aren't paying 250% more.

At Ambush, in BC, that package is $60.

At TSA, again $60.

At Kamloops, its $45.

At Bushwacker its $30 for 200 rounds, then $20 for 500 more.

At Final Rule, its $45.

Outer Limits is $60.

Maple Ridge is $60.


Thing about it is not only are their packages much cheaper, they also sell individual items for far less. If you have to charge as much as you do to make money then it probably means you are buying your stuff at retail from Walmart and re-selling it on the field. Either that or you pissed off your vendors, and that isn't too hard to believe.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:24 PM #265
randomdean
 
 
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Just because many fields price their field fees more closely than you describe doesn't mean that is the only way to do business. ALL fields that sell paintball do in fact use much of those profits to cover some of their other overhead other than the cost of the paintballs (otherwise they would not need to mark them up at all). This is also used in virtually every retail business in the world. McDonalds doesn't charge you rent for the table you sit at, rent for the parking spot, have pay toilets. It's all covered by the markup on their burgers, fries and drinks. Maybe you've been in a restaurant and noticed this for yourself.
Funny that you mention that, exactly mcdonalds doesn't charge an eat in fee as of right now. But you definitely charge a field fee. Do you want apples to apples comparisons or apples to oranges? I'm confused because you've complained about both. Yes they do use some or most of that profit to cover the cost of operating, but they don't mark them up to such a level and then say it's for the playing environment, then later say we need to to pay other expenses, then go back to saying it's about the players, then come back and say but it's what everyone does.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:46 PM #266
Nahib_Stilgar
 
 
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Profit is what you make after all the operating costs are covered...

The high price of the paint is the most effective way to control the playing environment.

The cost of the paint needs to strike a balance. It has to cover the costs but still be affordable to the players. Considering Horizon has been in business for over 10 years, and he has a considerable number of rentals and regulars it can be said that he has found that balance.

So yes. it is for the players benefit.

And it is what everyone else does, but in a different way. He provides a specific paintball experience to customers who want a low ROF environment.

Other fields provide other environments for players. This all benefits the players by giving them a range of choice in where and how they want to play.

Cheap paint will attract some people but the resulting high rate of fire will scare off other people.

Expensive paint will turn off some players who want to shoot more. But it will attract other players looking for a low ROF game.

Is one better than the other? your opinion is going to be different to mine.

If we are different in what we like why do we need to be forced into the same cookie cutter field?
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:55 PM #267
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There must be some strange field dynamics going on at your "good" fields if renters are not buying more than their first bag of paint...even if it is cheap.

My field charges $100-$120 for a case of paint...$50 gets them the rental package including 500 rounds...and I see renters come back for more paint all the time...Most of the time its another bag (at that price) sometimes more. Once they buy it, they sure as heck shoot it! No one buys paint to not use it.

So how is it your fields are able to make renters stretch their paint across a whole day of play when your prices are so reasonable? Do they just shoot the paint and go home?

When new technology that lets anyone shoot 15bps is added to cheap paint the result is a lot of paint sales. To say otherwise would be un true.

The technology is not going to go backwards and why should it? So how do you propose a field create a low rate of fire environment for players who crave such a thing?

Place a Hard cap on what a player can buy? Not unless you want to create negative press, resentment, and anger. A sure way to put your self out of business.

Low volume by high price works in almost any other industry, why is it unacceptable in paintball?

Last edited by Nahib_Stilgar : 10-15-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:13 PM #268
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Okay Horizon, it comes down to this.

Lets completely ignore what your individual prices are. They don't matter, so lets disregard them.

Instead, lets determine how much a person is going to write you a check for when they leave.


You've already said that the average player is going to buy about a bag of paint. Most are probably going to need rentals as well.

So a bag of paint is $45 and the fees are $30.

So the average person is going to spend $75 playing on your field.

On my field, the same package is $30 total. But lets go somewhere else since apparently you think that paintballing in Georgia is a million times different than paintballing in BC. Even though you are charging 250% more and we all know that you aren't paying 250% more.

At Ambush, in BC, that package is $60.

At TSA, again $60.

At Kamloops, its $45.

At Bushwacker its $30 for 200 rounds, then $20 for 500 more.

At Final Rule, its $45.

Outer Limits is $60.

Maple Ridge is $60.


Thing about it is not only are their packages much cheaper, they also sell individual items for far less. If you have to charge as much as you do to make money then it probably means you are buying your stuff at retail from Walmart and re-selling it on the field. Either that or you pissed off your vendors, and that isn't too hard to believe.
I guess I can divulge this much...our average income per player is somewhere between $50-$55. The odd person will pay $75 for field fees, rentals, lunch and a bag of 500, but those are people who don't think too much. Many will pay the deposit and save $5 (we always recommend it every time someone calls us). We also encourage people to go together and buy bulk (we usually mention 4 people splitting a case), that reduces cost by another $5. About 40% of our customers are gear owners, they save another $10. Then there is all the advertising and such we do. We have all sorts of free play coupons, 2 for 1 coupons, Groupons that all save our customers money. This Friday it's free field fees, free rentals, free lunch with the purchase of 500 paintballs. Hence why our income is nowhere near $75/player. This is what real businesses do. They mark up their price to a certain level and then attract people with sales and specials. Most paintball fields aren't run like real businesses though, they are run by hobbyists. Most don't spend much on advertising (one of the common suggestions I see on paintball forums - fields should advertise more). We do advertise. Advertising is expensive.

I haven't been to most of the fields you listed, only Ambush and only for speedball. Their speedball prices are not the same as their rec field prices. $60 includes a marker and mask and 500 paintballs. It does not include clothing of any sort or lunch. Their paintball prices look very familiar (they've gone up since the last time I checked their site). $10/100, $45/500, and $160/case. Not to put them down, but their field is not at the same level as ours. But even if it's not, at least their paint prices will keep players in check.

I don't recognize some of those fields you mentioned. The ones I do recognize I have had customers that have been to those fields. Those customers have all said that those fields are not comparable to ours. I can only speculate that has to do with the amount of money we spend on our field and on our overhead. The fact that some of those fields use low price/high paintball volume price structures doesn't really surprise me. That model is used all over the place in North America. It shouldn't surprise anyone. Since you seem to prefer that pricing structure, it shouldn't surprise you.

Last edited by Horizon : 10-15-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:43 PM #269
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The paint prices on two of the fields are same as yours, except their package prices are so much cheaper. Wonder how that happens?

And I've already gone into how much you make on your average player, and its pretty much the same thing you just said but yesterday you said I was way off?? Liars really suck at keeping their siht straight.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:49 PM #270
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The paint prices on two of the fields are same as yours, except their package prices are so much cheaper. Wonder how that happens?

And I've already gone into how much you make on your average player, and its pretty much the same thing you just said but yesterday you said I was way off?? Liars really suck at keeping their siht straight.
pwnt.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:06 PM #271
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The paint prices on two of the fields are same as yours, except their package prices are so much cheaper. Wonder how that happens?
I have no idea what their expenses are and why they price the way they do. Maybe you should find someone that has been to those fields and ours and ask them why it might be. Then you might know. I've already told you my thoughts but you chose to ignore them, just as you choose to ignore much of the logic in this thread.

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And I've already gone into how much you make on your average player, and its pretty much the same thing you just said but yesterday you said I was way off?? Liars really suck at keeping their siht straight.
Please find and show please, so I can see what you are talking about.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:26 PM #272
Tempted (Banned)
 
 
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Please find and show please, so I can see what you are talking about.
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Okay so now we have established that the same customer using the same equipment and buying the same amount of paint is making you 375% more profit than a reasonable field. Lets talk about what you get for your money now. I'm not talking about intangible, I'm only talking about the hard goods they receive.



Once more we will go by the numbers comparison except this time each player has a set amount that they can spend. Lets put that limit at $75.


This time they have their own gear and don't need to rent. All they need is air and paint.

The field fee including all day air for "A" is $10. The field fee with all day air is $20 at "H". Double the profit, same expenses.

At "A" the player can pay the $10 all day air and field fee and buy 1 case of paint at $50 and one bag of paint at $15.

At "H" the player can pay the $20 field and air fee and buy one bag of paint at $45 and 100 additional rounds for $10.

The thing is field "H" will not have to fill the tank again to fire 600 rounds. This means more profit due to less expense.

So what you get for your money?

At field "A" you play all day, fill your tank 3 or 4 times and get 2500 rounds to fire. If you don't use them all, take them home or bring them back next weekend.


At field "H" you play all day, fill your tank once and get 600 rounds.

Coffee break.

Now lets look at field profits on those two players.

Field "A" spent $5 for the air and perishables. They spent $31.25 on the paint for a total of $36.25.

Field "H" spent $2 for the air and perishables. They spent $7.50 on the paint for a total of $9.50.

Field "A" made $38.75 profit on that player. Field "H" made $65.50 on that player.

What that means is that field "H" made double the profit and sold less than 25% as many paintballs.

This all means that field "H" has less than half the expense while making over double the money.


So you give your customers less product for their money and make twice as much as a good field.
There.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:35 PM #273
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There.
Oh my goodness. I am so sorry. I just realized that you don't know the difference between income and profit. You are probably like in grade 7 or 8, somewhere around there. I feel bad now. I'm a grown adult with life experience and stuff. I should not have been debating stuff like this with you. I feel like I've been picking on a little kid now. I feel horrible. Please except my apology. When you get a little bigger and you have a little bit more knowledge, please seek me out and we can continue this discussion.
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