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Old 10-09-2012, 01:24 AM #1
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smoke grenades= blind firing?

This is a question for fellow field owners. We've recently become a dealer for Enola Gaye smoke grenades and now we're(field owners/ head ref) discussing whether or not it would be considered blind firing(which we don't allow) if you were to shoot through the smoke cloud? I don't think it will ever be to "blind" as we seem to always have some sort of breeze, but we're trying to decide now before it becomes an issue.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:17 AM #2
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Not a field owner, but even with a good smoke grenade that produces some thick smoke you can still see a silhouette of what your shooting(granted that shadow maybe a tree..), even at far distances specially on a bright sunny day.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:05 AM #3
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I would not sweat this, as stated above you still can generally make out some type of shape through the fog or haze. Kudos to thinking ahead though. It may be to your advantage to add an addendum to your safety briefing regarding the use of smoke and firing wildly into it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:07 PM #4
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This is what the field I operate does for "blind firing"

If you are not shooting at a player, you are blind firing. This basically covers all excused you may hear from players for marking up something they should not. If they can see the player in the smoke shoot them, if not they are blind firing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:44 PM #5
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field owner here.

we stopped selling smoke grenades since a player used one inside a house and one of the kids/players had asthma problems. he ran out took his mask off to be able to breath and was shot in the face by another player that was startled.

we have not touched them since.

on another note if your field has certain ditches or trenches like ours the smoke covers over them so let me set a scenario for you.

player 1 throws smoke grenade over ditch.

player 2 sees the smoke and sees it as an attempt to rush in.

the smoke covers ditch.

as player 2 runs over to try and take players out he falls inside ditch that was covered by the smoke.

certain players especially new ones never put there mask on right with messes with there peripheral vision or its a bit loose so they cant see their feet quite right unless they stare directly at them so they dont pay attention to pot holes etc. and always fall in them.

and the incident i described above did happen to a birthday party we hosted several years ago. we actually have it on our website! the kid is now 18 and gave us permission ha!

hope this helps
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:00 AM #6
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^borderpaintball- good advise and we've already covered that idea. Smoke grenades won't be alowed to be used in buildings, only on the outside. Also almost every one of buildings doesn't have a roof on it so hopefully this won't be an issue even if someone "accidently" throws one in there.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:01 AM #7
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I think of blind firing more as someone behind a bunker, holds their gun out of bunker and shoots wildly without visually seeing where the paintballs are traveling. Unless it is causing an actual hazard, I'd say just let em shoot at the smoke and let them have fun
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:53 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorhamblin View Post
This is what the field I operate does for "blind firing"

If you are not looking where you're shooting, you are blind firing. This basically covers all excused you may hear from players for marking up something they should not. If they can see the player in the smoke shoot them, if not they are blind firing.
Thats how those rules should look if you ask me..
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:58 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BorderPaintball2 View Post
field owner here.

we stopped selling smoke grenades since a player used one inside a house and one of the kids/players had asthma problems. he ran out took his mask off to be able to breath and was shot in the face by another player that was startled.

we have not touched them since.

on another note if your field has certain ditches or trenches like ours the smoke covers over them so let me set a scenario for you.

player 1 throws smoke grenade over ditch.

player 2 sees the smoke and sees it as an attempt to rush in.

the smoke covers ditch.

as player 2 runs over to try and take players out he falls inside ditch that was covered by the smoke.

certain players especially new ones never put there mask on right with messes with there peripheral vision or its a bit loose so they cant see their feet quite right unless they stare directly at them so they dont pay attention to pot holes etc. and always fall in them.

and the incident i described above did happen to a birthday party we hosted several years ago. we actually have it on our website! the kid is now 18 and gave us permission ha!

hope this helps

These are quite real problems. Especially because the smoke produced displaces oxygen... as everything except oxygen does.

As a manager of a field I personally have used them before with no problem.

Although yes what I have quoted are real problems maybe smoke grenades should be only for experienced players.

I would also put something in your "Rules" or "Orientation" about this as well as your waiver, and make sure to call your insurance agent.

But back to blind firing.

Smoke kind of makes people want to blind fire because they can't see so they just spray. The problem with this is you can't tell what your shooting at. I would personally just reiterate that you need to be careful in the situation you put other people on as well as yourself because, you can easily be set up in a hallway and as soon as smoke clears or people just get a lane you could get shot pretty rapidly.

I would just use best judgement. If the person is spraying everywhere or is putting them self in a very bad spot I would either call the person out(on blind firing) or tell the player...
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:26 PM #10
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A method we tried at my field:

If you (a player) want to use a smoke grenade:
1- You call a ref (they are plenty of refs on the field).
2- You give him your smoke grenade and tell him WHERE you want it to be placed.
3- The ref use his judgment to decide if
a) You could realistically throw a smoke there
b) It's safe (fire hazard, etc) to throw a smoke at that location.
4- The ref run to the designated spot, ignite the smoke and drop it on the ground.

This method ensure that:
- The smoke will not start a fire by being thrown somewhere where it shouldn't.
- Nobody have a burning smoke grenade thrown on him/her (it happened to me, I was behind a bunker and someone threw an ignited smoke grenade that landed on my head)
- The smoke can't be "wasted" (Missed throw, thrown in water, etc)
- Players don't have to carry lighter and you avoid the extra cost of pull-ring smoke grenades

All those factors resulted in an increase in smoke grenade sale since the main opposition voiced by players when offered to buy smoke grenade was "Yeah but if you throw and miss you just wasted X dollars"

As for the blind firing rule, at my field we had mostly advanced players (i.e: we were playing speedball but in a woodsball setting). Whenever a smokebomb would pop, 90% of the team would start raining paint through the smoke, hoping to hit whoever is trying to run through. Whenever we had rental players on the field, we would not allow players to do this

With that being said, smoke grenades offer some tactical advantages but their main role is to add to the ambiance of the game. This is why I think that smoke grenades should be affordable but not to the point where they are used at every single game.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:42 AM #11
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We sell the enola Gaye smoke grenades (ring pull type) frequently and thus far haven't had any issues with them (besides the occasional person not reading the directions and being confused by the operation of them).

The idea of having the ref place the smoke grenade is pretty cool depending on your ratio of referees to players, but part of the fun of the smoke (or paint grenade) is being able to deploy said items as rapidly as you want.

Our players are told to yell "grenade" before throwing paint grenades so a ref can position themselves to see the splatter, or be aware that they need to check for dead players upon deployment of the grenade.. Perhaps this is something that could be included for smokes as well.

Whenever I see a smoke on the field (Already thrown or about to be) I check on it to determine fire hazard, also I've seen them land in a crummy spot or end up facing in a bad direction so I run over and slightly move it to allow better smoke distribution.. I've mentioned this to my staff, but maybe this could be a quick training session for new refs. Just one of those things that adds to a customers experience.. That way nobody feels like they wasted money on a smoke. (people who really suck at throwing things probably know this before hand and likely won't be upset if they really bif a throw, like I tend to do). This method is slightly less invasive and allows for those crutch quick decision throws.. With some mild aim assist after the fact

As far as blind firing is concerned, I don't see it as much of a problem because new players typically don't throw a smoke and then hide in it.. They use it as a screen between both teams. Most of the time any kind of blind firing would be extremely inconsequential anyway.. Just a waste of paint. Those smokes put out so much volume that it's hard to tell where exactly a player might be in the smoke.

I think tvise has the right idea.. It's really a discretion call by a ref, and something that shouldn't be written in stone. Perhaps outline a few scenarios to refs and train them on what to do when. If someone is ripping 12.5bps through smoke that a rental just threw.. Ok boss, bring it down a notch. If someone with a 98c is shooting at the flag pole because the rope at the top of the pole is moving but the base is smoked out? Get him! He's getting the flag!!
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:55 AM #12
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Sorry to double post..

As a manager/head ref I feel as those issues like this shouldn't be something you put in rules. Don't overcomplicate the game for first time players by adding a lot of beef to rules. First time players have a hard enough time remembering to keep goggles on, and barrel bags on.. This is a Ref issue (imo). I believe if you train, and encourage critical thinking/decision making you'll make for a stronger reffing staff, and better games for the customers. Reffing is a lot like policing.. There are thousands of situations where a black and white rule could be written, but by instead leaving those situations to the discretion of the officer, (with guidance from policy) you often end up with a more positive outcome, and reduced headache.
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