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Old 10-09-2012, 12:47 PM #1
Iamamartianchurch
 
 
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Conservatism Admits Defeat

I've noticed a trend of conservatives increasingly accepting freedom as a goal, for freedoms own sake. This is typically expressed with the ever familiar: "do whatever you want so long as you don't directly harm others"

By my understanding, conservatives exist to uphold tradition. Why then are they embracing that which is antithetical to Tradition?

It is no secret that conservatives have failed to develop their own worldview and promote it. The battleground of ideas is won by appeal above anything else. Which explains the failure of conservatism and the success of liberalism.

Recognizing their ideas are unpopular, conservatives chose to use government to expand their influence. Now that that failed, conservatives are embracing liberal ideas in hopes to gather sympathy and support. Another failed strategy in that there is no impetus to join conservatism if it is merely a soft liberalism. Combining this with the defeatist mentality, conservatives are throwing in the towel and their movement becomes increasingly irrelevant.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:31 PM #2
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http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and...-own?page=0,0#

conservatives are not embracing liberal ideas, they're doubling down on their insanity.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:32 PM #3
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In case you haven't realized, obama and romney are tied in the polls. If "conservatism has failed" this wouldnt be the case.
Also, I don't see anyone except romney embracing liberal ideas. You must be living in an alternate reality.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:44 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by licence2kill View Post
http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and...-own?page=0,0#

conservatives are not embracing liberal ideas, they're doubling down on their insanity.
ITT: people totally missing the OP's point.

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In case you haven't realized, obama and romney are tied in the polls. If "conservatism has failed" this wouldnt be the case.
Also, I don't see anyone except romney embracing liberal ideas. You must be living in an alternate reality.
I stand corrected; ITT: people proving the OP's point without meaning to because they can't see beyond a single presidential election.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:48 PM #5
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im not missing his point, he's just wrong. Possibly because he's using a definition of conservative that hasn't been apt for a 100 years.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:53 PM #6
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im not missing his point, he's just wrong. Possibly because he's using a definition of conservative that hasn't been apt for a 100 years.
He said conservative, not Republican. It's pretty clear what he means by the context of his statements.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:03 PM #7
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He said conservative, not Republican. It's pretty clear what he means by the context of his statements.
The only thing that's clear is that he's trying to make up news that doesn't exist, and failing to provide any sort of proof that he's right.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:09 PM #8
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He said conservative, not Republican. It's pretty clear what he means by the context of his statements.
sorry, but they play the bagpipes

im not interested in some mythical definition of a conservative that doesn't exist in reality. im interested in what the people who actually identify as conservatives believe

Last edited by licence2kill : 10-09-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:21 PM #9
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Quote:
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He said conservative, not Republican. It's pretty clear what he means by the context of his statements.
Correct. This is not about Republicans.

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The only thing that's clear is that he's trying to make up news that doesn't exist, and failing to provide any sort of proof that he's right.
I stated clearly in the first paragraph a trend I observe. I see it prevalent in this forums conservatives. I'm assuming you identify yourself as conservative, how do you feel about Tradition and individual freedom ?
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:27 PM #10
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sorry, but they play the bagpipes
A lot of people play a lot of bagpipes, that seems pretty irrelevant.

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im not interested in some mythical definition of a conservative that doesn't exist in reality. im interested in what the people who actually identify as conservatives believe
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

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The only thing that's clear is that he's trying to make up news that doesn't exist, and failing to provide any sort of proof that he's right.
This is a Politics subforum, not a news subforum. You've proven yourself completely incapable of intelligent discourse on political topics, go educate yourself and come back with something to contribute or don't clutter the thread.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:39 PM #11
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A lot of people play a lot of bagpipes, that seems pretty irrelevant.
well if you're going to cry NO TRUE SCOTSMAN because no one who actually calls themselves a conservative fits to your ideal then this is going to be a pointless discussion.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:43 PM #12
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Martian would you mind elaborating on your OP? Even outside of the republican or conservative problem, I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to get atl.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:44 PM #13
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well if you're going to cry NO TRUE SCOTSMAN because no one who actually calls themselves a conservative fits to your ideal then this is going to be a pointless discussion.
So in your mind there is only one possible definition of Conservative, and it is represented by the Republican Party of the United States?

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Old 10-09-2012, 02:45 PM #14
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So in your mind there is only one possible definition of Conservative, and it is represented by the Republican Party of the United States?

Note that the conservatives in question are "increasingly accepting freedom as a goal, for freedoms own sake". So I also would assume that this question is within the bounds of modern american conservatives (republicans).
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:47 PM #15
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Point taken.

Now if only we could get Democrats to embrace liberal ideas...
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:49 PM #16
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Ironically most European conservatives writers do not accept American conservatism as genuine conservatism, but rather a variety of liberalism. This may be what is leading to martian's divergence between conservatism's core principles (tradition) and it's antithetical approach towards freedom.

That is of course assuming I'm properly understanding martian, but I'm probably not.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:55 PM #17
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Martian would you mind elaborating on your OP? Even outside of the republican or conservative problem, I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to get atl.
I tried to find a happy median definition of conservatism that is consistent with history and distinguishes it from liberalism, which is why I went with Tradition.

My issue is that conservatives appear to be abandoning tradition or aspects of it, in effect turning into soft liberals. This renders conservatism irrelevant and almost a dead ideology. This is the direction I see modern conservatism heading.

Also on the table is this: conservatism, for as much as it attempts to use politics to advance itself, cannot even produce an ideologically consistent candidate. Let alone rally around what they are given as a step in their direction. This defeatist attitude fractures their movement. Evidenced by the fact that so many are still supporting and will continue to support fringe candidates with half of a platform and no shot at the top. Symbolically, it is effective in the early stages, but at some point they need to get behind what little they have and keep the pressure on.

They have failed and become largely reactionary. Free Enterprise is a shining example.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:56 PM #18
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Ironically most European conservatives writers do not accept American conservatism as genuine conservatism, but rather a variety of liberalism. This may be what is leading to martian's divergence between conservatism's core principles (tradition) and it's antithetical approach towards freedom.

That is of course assuming I'm properly understanding martian, but I'm probably not.
You get it just fine. Though I hadn't considered European conservatives, they make a fine point.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:29 PM #19
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You're not describing the beliefs that most who call themselves conservative subscribe to. There are many conservatives in this country who are die-hard on holding onto tradition and oppose any rapid social/economic change. What you're describing is the mindset of the modern day libertarian.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:14 AM #20
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True conservatives including me want to go back to colonial life in America. My ancestors came here in the early 1600's, so part of me knows what it's like.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:39 AM #21
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