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View Poll Results: God's action level
God started the spark for life on Earth, and then left things alone entirely. He has been largely hands off, simply got the ball rolling 5 41.67%
God got life on the right track, implemented evolution, and did some basic guiding to ensure man's ascension 4 33.33%
God started life and helped man largely in various ways in our primitive days, helped us invent things and listens to prayers 2 16.67%
God keeps tabs on all people on Earth, punishes those who are bad and helps those who are good 0 0%
Not only does God micromanage people and punish sinners, we are born with our death date already determined, and God has already planned some of the future for humanity 1 8.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-08-2012, 09:24 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Most people struggle with basic literacy. They need a tradition forced down their throats. Gives them a sense of being and purpose higher than themselves that they ultimately fail to acquire on their own. You call oppression, I call it liberation. Liberation from themselves. If that makes sense.
this sounds like you're just bull****ting
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:09 AM #23
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I guess the religious folks are steering clear of this thread. Not sure why, valid question being asked here.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:03 AM #24
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this sounds like you're just bull****ting
Probably just my choice of words. I could have worded it like a sap I guess.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:31 AM #25
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It would take a long time to grow humans from soup. If we're just transplanting babies that's unethical.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:34 AM #26
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I would be hard not to eat the soup if we were.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:24 PM #27
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Mostly just put off by all the predictable BS. We tend to avoid most threads due to the high levels of venom from the usual suspects. It's not worth wading through most of the time.

So I'll have a quick stab at your OP.

I didn't vote any of the options because I'm not sure. I don't believe that God actively punishes or rewards people for deeds here on earth since that doesn't really fit with the Christian model anyway. I often think that maybe God just set up the conditions for the big bang knowing the results down to the finest detail, and is mostly just sitting back and watching with a few exceptions.

This was the more interesting part of your post:

Quote:
"Why on Earth would god care what I am doing? There are 7 billion of us on this planet he made - why would he give a **** if I am blowing coke, watching football, or reading a book? Why would a god want us all to behave and act like Monks? Wouldn't that be boring? Doesn't he want us to progress as a species so we aren't a failed creation of his?
"

This is a little too anthropomorphic. An omnipotent, omnipresent being has no resource limitations, so there would be no reason *not* to be actively observing the movement of every quark in the entire universe let alone what you're smoking. Whether God would *care* or not is a matter of character and purpose. A human probably wouldn't, but there's no reason to think God would be the same.

"Behave and act like monks" assumes a whole lot about faith that only really applies to certain subgroups. Likewise, "progress" is relative depending on your values and your end goal.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:47 AM #28
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This is a little too anthropomorphic.
This is the bulk of the problem for atheists and Christians. I'll go ahead and say that once anthropomorphism shows up, the religion is done. It'll carry on, but its meaning and significance are replaced by dogma faith and worst of all - worship. The reason is simple, it ceases to look "above" in a metaphysical sense. Everything is related to and understood through the physical.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:12 PM #29
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I don't get it. Anthropomorphism is non-existant in Islam yet it's still fully focused around the worship of God.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:39 PM #30
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Ismailis and to a lesser extent, Shi'its strike me as being more esoteric than sunnis.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:05 PM #31
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The Shia have done a great job of turning a strictly political affair into a religious one over hundreds of years. The great majority of Twelver Shia doctrine was established 500 years after the prophet.

Besides that, I don't see how it is esoteric at all. Anyone can study Shia doctrine and convert to being A Shia Muslim.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:41 AM #32
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I'm not sure I follow your link between anthropomorphism and worship, martian. According to the official Christian definition worship is anything done unselfishly for God, but I guess you're referring specifically to musical worship. In that case I'm still not seeing it - worship in that sense exists for a bunch of reasons none of which have anything to do with how humanlike God is.

And while I think God is normally overhumanised in arguments, biblically we are made "in the image of God". I suppose that could be used in defense of a certain amount of anthro in the sense that God is described throughout scripture as having emotions and conciousness/self awareness/wisdom etc., the physical world being primarily a vehicle and enabler for those parts of our nature.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:54 AM #33
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The Shia have done a great job of turning a strictly political affair into a religious one over hundreds of years. The great majority of Twelver Shia doctrine was established 500 years after the prophet.

Besides that, I don't see how it is esoteric at all. Anyone can study Shia doctrine and convert to being A Shia Muslim.
I say that because the shiit tradition is more developed in an esoteric sense than the Sunni. Not that it is completely there. I say this because the Sufi mystics follow this tradition. Also because the 12 imamis are roughly the same thing as the Buddhas of pali-buddhism. The Shi'ites also appear to retain the concept of divine light, which is a Kabbalic teaching. Although the concept is present just about everywhere.

I'm not an expert on Islam by any means.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:15 AM #34
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I'm not sure I follow your link between anthropomorphism and worship, martian. According to the official Christian definition worship is anything done unselfishly for God, but I guess you're referring specifically to musical worship. In that case I'm still not seeing it - worship in that sense exists for a bunch of reasons none of which have anything to do with how humanlike God is.

And while I think God is normally overhumanised in arguments, biblically we are made "in the image of God". I suppose that could be used in defense of a certain amount of anthro in the sense that God is described throughout scripture as having emotions and conciousness/self awareness/wisdom etc., the physical world being primarily a vehicle and enabler for those parts of our nature.
Worship takes the impersonal and makes it personal. Anthropomorphism is not merely making something Human like in a physical sense of being. It is going so far as to give individuality to something which isn't individual. I'm assuming you are familiar with the idea that God is inside of us? Well that statement is an anthropomorphic perversion of the Vedic Atman/Brahman. Doing things for something else is a continuation of bad logic.

In truth, everything is made in the image of God. The statement ought to be viewed similar to Platonic thought. Creation is a constant and necessary process-the direct result of the perfect, transcendent absolute, expressing itself. What they called the Nous is roughly the mind of God. It is the job of the Nous to describe God, the infinite. The process of description ends up in a dazzling display of many many forms. Hence the variety we see in this universe.

Hopefully you can extract the proper context for understanding consciousness emotion etc etc etc from that last paragraph.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:13 PM #35
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Whether the assumption you make is true is a far more interesting question than what the poll asks. If you assume God exists, and you assume that he had anything to do with creating anything, who the heck cares how he did it?
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:21 PM #36
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Ah, martian I wasn't aware you were approaching this from a specific theological position. Seems like a form of pantheism/deism.

I would say that God is personal - to a point. Self aware, capable of emotion, capable of thought. Very much a "being". But I'd draw the line there - when people start saying "why would God care about me" it's ascribing an entirely different level of anthro, ie. assuming human level resource and time limitations.

Spock: Newton, Galileo, Copernicus and many others all considered themselves Christians even if some weren't well liked by the RCC. As far as I know their faith didn't stop them. The leader of the human genome project was a Christian. The guy who originally proposed the Big Bang model was a Christian sooo ... not sure where you're coming from here. Your implication is false.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:31 PM #37
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Yeah man I usually do. I don't like pantheism because it completely disregards the metaphysical. It isn't even worth discussing in my mind. Although I would prefer ontological over theological.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:14 PM #38
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IF there is a God, and IF he does micromanage...It's doing one hell of a ****ty job
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:18 PM #39
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IF there is a God, and IF he does micromanage...It's doing one hell of a ****ty job
Unless he likes it this way....
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:53 AM #40
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I would definitely want to watch the planet tear itself apart.

(south park episode with the sea people kinda thing would be sweet)

Then when everyone gets nuked to death... I won't give a ****, because I'm God. I'll just recreated everything with a snap of my fingers.
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Old 10-18-2012, 02:55 AM #41
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Yea I have that tendency in sim games. Build a really nice city in Sim city, then just go hands off and watch it crash and burn enjoying every moment of it.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:41 AM #42
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I say that because the shiit tradition is more developed in an esoteric sense than the Sunni. Not that it is completely there. I say this because the Sufi mystics follow this tradition.
Sufi's are predominantly Sunni Muslims. Al Ghazali was instrumental in the justifying the compatibility between Sufi practice and Sunni jurisprudence.
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