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Old 10-08-2012, 11:37 PM #106
Tempted (Banned)
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: N Ga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
$30 ($25 if pre-booked with a deposit) pays for the rental gear, field use with more referees than you will find at most fields, and lunch. If you don't need the rentals it's $20 ($15 if pre-booked with a deposit) for the field fees, all day air/CO2, and lunch. And yes, prices in general (cost of living) are probably a little higher than in many places in North America.
So how much paint is included with that $30? You get a bag of 500 along with all the gear for $30 at respectable fields.

Your prices are wrong. Yes, technically, all day field and air is $30. However for $30 you can't play. You have to add another $45 for a bag of paint.

So stop with the "$30" comment. You can not play paintball at your field for $30. You need to specify what the actual cost is to for one day. It isn't $30, or even $50.

Bottom line is it costs a minimum of $80 to show up and play at your field. That is pure robbery. You screw people and try to justify it. You are driving players away with you astronomical prices.

Again, if you want to accomplish the same thing without destroying people's wallets then limit them to a bag a day. The fact is you don't give a crap about the players, you are only after their money. If you actually cared then you would cap the paint at 1 bag per person per day. You won't do this, obviously, because it would keep you from stealing money from the players. Your field is despicable and your business ethics are horrid. You are nothing but a money greedy extortionist and should be removed from sport of paintball. You are screwing up our sport and driving players away.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:55 PM #107
Horizon
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
So how much paint is included with that $30? You get a bag of 500 along with all the gear for $30 at respectable fields.

Your prices are wrong. Yes, technically, all day field and air is $30. However for $30 you can't play. You have to add another $45 for a bag of paint.

So stop with the "$30" comment. You can not play paintball at your field for $30. You need to specify what the actual cost is to for one day. It isn't $30, or even $50.

Bottom line is it costs a minimum of $80 to show up and play at your field. That is pure robbery. You screw people and try to justify it. You are driving players away with you astronomical prices.

Again, if you want to accomplish the same thing without destroying people's wallets then limit them to a bag a day. The fact is you don't give a crap about the players, you are only after their money. If you actually cared then you would cap the paint at 1 bag per person per day. You won't do this, obviously, because it would keep you from stealing money from the players. Your field is despicable and your business ethics are horrid. You are nothing but a money greedy extortionist and should be removed from sport of paintball. You are screwing up our sport and driving players away.
Oh stop. If I charged $30 for everything including a bag of paint, we wouldn't last a month, even if we had 500 people per day show up (actually the more that showed up, the more we would probably lose. We have overhead. We have days when we have 12 staff at the field, not including management. That's a cost of about $1,500 right there alone. With say 120 people paying 30, that's $3600 (about $3214 with taxes removed). We haven't paid for anything else yet including the paint. 30 cases of paint would use up almost all of the remainder. Our landlord still wants to be paid. The insurance company wants their part. We haven't touched on the cost of CO2/air and maintenance of the field. Power, advertising, phones, vehicles, it goes on and on. It would be nice if I could make some money too. Luckily I have other skills and work a part time other job though, so that helps make ends meet. Stop making silly assumptions.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:06 AM #108
Tempted (Banned)
 
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You're foolish if you think that we believe you. You're trying to tell me that priced at $30, you would lose money? Holy crap, every other field must be going bankrupt! You're a liar to tell use that you can't make money by charging a reasonable price. My local field is 9am to 5pm, charges $30 which includes a bag of paint and they make plenty every weekend. I happen to know exactly how much a case of paint costs to a field, and if you want me to break down your markup I'll do it in a heartbeat.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:19 AM #109
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Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
You're foolish if you think that we believe you. You're trying to tell me that priced at $30, you would lose money? Holy crap, every other field must be going bankrupt! You're a liar to tell use that you can't make money by charging a reasonable price. My local field is 9am to 5pm, charges $30 which includes a bag of paint and they make plenty every weekend. I happen to know exactly how much a case of paint costs to a field, and if you want me to break down your markup I'll do it in a heartbeat.
I don't lie, but please, give it a try. You have no idea what we use for field paint and how much we pay wholesale. You might know that some fields in some areas can get crappy paint for $20 a case or some silly thing like that, but you know nothing about our costs. You do not know how much we pay for insurance (it's a lot). You might be able to look up that minimum wage here is $10.25 an hour and we do in fact pay many of our refs minimum wage. But some get more, depending on experience, length of employment. Do you know how much diesel our generator uses and how much diesel costs here (you could probably look that price up)? Do you know how much we spend on maintenance and upgrades? How about our lease payment? Do you know how much that is? All you know is that someone is relatively successful doing something you don't understand and apparently for some reason, do not like.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:33 AM #110
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If Horizon's pricing structure works for him and his players, I don't see what the huge problem is. As he said there would be a lot of side costs in running the field, although I can't comment on the validity of the prices seeing as I do not live there nor have any experience running or working on a field

He needs to make a living somehow, and if people are happy to pay for what he offers so be it. From a little research there are a couple of cheaper places around, so if people really cannot afford it, it would be easy enough to research and visit a different field?

At my local field the prices are
$29.50 - Goggles, Gun, 100 Balls
$69.50 - Goggles, Gun, Overalls, Harness 400
$99.50 - Same as above, 600 balls
$135 - Same as above, 900 balls
Keep in mind those are for a 3 hour session aswell.

That's just about the prices for all the fields around here, so in comparison Horizon's prices would be great D:
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:09 AM #111
Tempted (Banned)
 
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Mid grade paint runs a field 20-25 a case. Cheap crap runs around 15 a case. For every case of paint you sell, you are making a minimum of $120 profit per case. If you sell that case in quantities of 100 then you are making $175. If you sell 20 cases of paint a day then you are making over $3000 on paint alone per day. Then add in the field fee(which doesn't come with any paint) of $30, subtract your cost of running the compressor(about $5 a day total, not per person) and you are clearing about $25 per player there. Subtract your ref expense(but I'd be willing to bet that you only pay them $25-35 or just give them paint) and your rent.

If you have 10 refs(which I doubt), you have between $250 and $350 expense there. Average rent is going to run between $1000 and $1500 per month unless you are indoors.

8 days of paintball per month = $24000 on paint at 20 cases a day.
$1000 in field fees after expenses at 40 players per day


At $1500 per month rent it works out to $187 per day at 8 days per month.

$190 rent + 350 refs + 10 for fuel + 200 misc = $750 per day expenses. And that is generously rounding up.

$3000 profit for paint + $1000 for air/field(at 40 players per day) + 250 for misc purchases = $4250

$4250 - $750 = $3500 per day

$3500 x 8 days per month = $28000

Doesn't take a genius to see.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:15 AM #112
Nahib_Stilgar
 
 
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Your assuming that he is paying that little for a case of paint.

Ask any Canadian what they pay for paint here in Canada...It it more expensive than in the US just because of the markets and lack of relative buying power.
(Hell, even paint made in Montreal (two hours from where I live) is more expensive in Ottawa than it is at EMR!)


Another question about relative value for you Tempted. If EMR charges $50 to enter (with 500 rounds) and then $80 for a case after that...are they still ripping people off?

They seem to be doing pretty well every time I have gone to one of their games?

How bout some of the other big fields? Skirmish and the such?
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:35 AM #113
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:40 AM #114
Horizon
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
Mid grade paint runs a field 20-25 a case. Cheap crap runs around 15 a case. For every case of paint you sell, you are making a minimum of $120 profit per case. If you sell that case in quantities of 100 then you are making $175. If you sell 20 cases of paint a day then you are making over $3000 on paint alone per day. Then add in the field fee(which doesn't come with any paint) of $30, subtract your cost of running the compressor(about $5 a day total, not per person) and you are clearing about $25 per player there. Subtract your ref expense(but I'd be willing to bet that you only pay them $25-35 or just give them paint) and your rent.

If you have 10 refs(which I doubt), you have between $250 and $350 expense there. Average rent is going to run between $1000 and $1500 per month unless you are indoors.

8 days of paintball per month = $24000 on paint at 20 cases a day.
$1000 in field fees after expenses at 40 players per day


At $1500 per month rent it works out to $187 per day at 8 days per month.

$190 rent + 350 refs + 10 for fuel + 200 misc = $750 per day expenses. And that is generously rounding up.

$3000 profit for paint + $1000 for air/field(at 40 players per day) + 250 for misc purchases = $4250

$4250 - $750 = $3500 per day

$3500 x 8 days per month = $28000

Doesn't take a genius to see.
You got it. Just about perfect.

If I were you, I would move to Victoria and open a paintball field. With your keen knowledge and business savvy you could steal all the business and live the life of luxury.

Heck, there are other field owners in B.C. with similar pricing structures open in much bigger markets that you could open a franchise and really make a killing. You'd be able to buy your own private jet in no time.

Good luck.

Last edited by Horizon : 10-09-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:51 AM #115
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^^^ Hmm, I didn't see any refutation of Tempted's numbers.

Maybe his figures are more correct than you're willing to admit?

Shiesty field owners who piss and moan about electro semi shooters on every single internet forum available, and then overcharge rental groups and kids to play ball? What's REALLY "killing the sport", huh?

Last edited by SNAKESNIPER : 10-09-2012 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:54 AM #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Really? Websites normally list tanks, hoppers, and barrel socks as part of their rental packages? You think we (or any other field) would hand someone a rental marker without those items? Gimme a break.

I'm pretty sure our site states that taxes are included in our prices.
If I'm wrong then THANK GOD. But its the way your website reads. Clearly I'm not the only one that saw it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
I don't tell people that. I let them make up their own minds. If players try the cheaper paint fields and they try our field and then decide to come back to our field after that, obviously the consumer is choosing with their wallet. That's the way it's supposed to work in a free market system and it does. I can't make people come to our field. They have to choose to do so on their own. We're just like any other business. We provide a service/product and consumers decide if it's good value for them. Apparently many do. I'm sorry all the naysayers (who most likely have never been anywhere near our field) don't see the value. I'm quite proud of the fact that we have brought so many new players into the market and that paintball is doing so well in the area. That's not going to change even if a bunch of people on the internet who don't understand don't like it.
Remember this:
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Now tell me that [you didn't imply] imply that you are saying "low volume" games are supposedly more entertaining by more people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
It should come across like that because that is what I am implying. I have never said however that it is the only way that paintball should be played or that there is a demand for, which I was replying to your accusation about what I said:
So yes you DID say that your method is the most entertaining way to play. To that I replied "who are you to decide for everyone what the best way to play is"?

Quote:
Who's complaining? We're just having a nice discussion. That's the great thing about the internet and forums in particular, it allows us to have these nice discussions.
The comment was directed towards Nahib_Stilgar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar View Post
Your assuming that he is paying that little for a case of paint.

Ask any Canadian what they pay for paint here in Canada...It it more expensive than in the US just because of the markets and lack of relative buying power.
(Hell, even paint made in Montreal (two hours from where I live) is more expensive in Ottawa than it is at EMR!)


Another question about relative value for you Tempted. If EMR charges $50 to enter (with 500 rounds) and then $80 for a case after that...are they still ripping people off?

They seem to be doing pretty well every time I have gone to one of their games?

How bout some of the other big fields? Skirmish and the such?
Skirmish Package:

All-Inclusive Package – $74.95 per person
Includes: admission to the fields, gun, goggles, paintball belt pack, unlimited N2 air fills, 750 paintballs, camouflage overalls and all day play.

Paint:
12 or more cases of paint = $74.00 per case
5 or more cases = $85.00 per case
Full Case = 2000 paintballs = $99.00
1000 paintballs = $52.00
500 paintballs = $33.00

Difference here...TNT has 4 fields. Skirmish has 50 fields spread out over 700 acres.
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Last edited by Soul06 : 10-09-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:59 AM #117
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This back and forth seems to be getting stale. At what point does everyone just agree to disagree?
I have engaged with businesses in Montreal and can certainly say that doing business in Montreal is not cheap at all...taxes alone are enough to drive some people out. Not sure how similar it is in Victoria. Although the prices at this particular field do seem very high to us here in the US, there is obviously a market that will support it, otherwise they would have gone out of business a long time ago. That may not justify price gouging as has been suggested, if that is what is going on, but no business model will survive on its concept alone, the local market has to support it, which seems to be the case here...I have seen some similar prices in the north east, NYC and Boston area, perhaps not as extreme but certainly 50% higher than in TX. Seems outrageous to me but their cost of doing business is also much higher...heck what some people rent a 1 BR flat for in NY or Boston you can get a 4BR house in TX...thats just the way the market works and its not a single generic model applicable to all areas.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:03 AM #118
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RETAIL price for field paint at most fields in southern Ontario is around $40-50 PER CASE for the cheap to mid grade stuff (that's AFTER markup). You're charging that for a BAG when you're most likely getting the paint for around $20 a case.... So selling one bag at your field has paid for the case plus $5.

$45 x 4 = $180, that's $160 profit PER CASE.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're getting cases for $30, your profit margin is still WAY above the "just breaking even" schtick you're peddling on here as an excuse.

Straight-up ripoff, plain and simple. You're a price-gouging vulture hiding behind some "less paint" philosophical BS.

Last edited by SNAKESNIPER : 10-09-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:36 AM #119
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The field I play at won't sell it at case price they sell at most 500 at a time.
100 extra paintballs - $8
200 extra paintballs - $14
500 extra paintballs - $27

And it is Wrek elite paint That they sell at their local shop for 3 cases for 99.

On a weekend the field could have well over a few hundred people though it. On a Sunday open play I saw probably 3 or 4 pallets of paint get sold.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:57 AM #120
Nahib_Stilgar
 
 
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
The comment was directed towards Nahib_Stilgar

Skirmish Package:

All-Inclusive Package $74.95 per person
Includes: admission to the fields, gun, goggles, paintball belt pack, unlimited N2 air fills, 750 paintballs, camouflage overalls and all day play.

Paint:
12 or more cases of paint = $74.00 per case
5 or more cases = $85.00 per case
Full Case = 2000 paintballs = $99.00
1000 paintballs = $52.00
500 paintballs = $33.00

Difference here...TNT has 4 fields. Skirmish has 50 fields spread out over 700 acres.
Fair enough. So you would agree that Skirmish, EMR and other big fields are selling more than just a day of paintball? They are in effect selling an experience?

So do these guys http://www.bigfoot-paintball.com/ (sorry its in french but check out their prices...)
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:48 AM #121
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I bet you were ripped off on that popcorn, $8 for a bucket is a rip off, orville Redenbacher should be ashamed.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:07 AM #122
Soul06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nahib_Stilgar

Fair enough. So you would agree that Skirmish, EMR and other big fields are selling more than just a day of paintball? They are in effect selling an experience?

So do these guys http://www.bigfoot-paintball.com/ (sorry its in french but check out their prices...)
I have never been to EMR or every checked out their pricing but a Skirmish definitely offers an experience. Though it's a woodsball only field, their fields vary from heavy dense woodland to very creative and elaborate scenario fields. They are hugely popular and very successful despite the Cons of the place and the high volume of paint being shot.

Some cons:
- having to lug your stuff (needed gear bags, paint, etc) with you from field to field
- inability to refill after every game. Only one central fill station which can be a bike to get back too (efficient markers become paramount for gear owners)
- $100 case for paint (but for the amount of fields and the experience I deal with it)
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Last edited by Soul06 : 10-09-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:34 AM #123
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I bet you were ripped off on that popcorn, $8 for a bucket is a rip off, orville Redenbacher should be ashamed.
That's why I always bring my own to the movies, f*ck movie theatre snack prices. They're always marking **** up around 300% to squeeze a profit, like some other businesses I've heard about.....
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:50 PM #124
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That's why I always bring my own to the movies, f*ck movie theatre snack prices. They're always marking **** up around 300% to squeeze a profit, like some other businesses I've heard about.....
Next thing they'll be charging us for sitting down too. and bathrooms
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:52 PM #125
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You got it. Just about perfect.

If I were you, I would move to Victoria and open a paintball field. With your keen knowledge and business savvy you could steal all the business and live the life of luxury.

Heck, there are other field owners in B.C. with similar pricing structures open in much bigger markets that you could open a franchise and really make a killing. You'd be able to buy your own private jet in no time.

Good luck.
You could make a fortune charging people for the bathrooms, they be paying out the *** even more so then
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:57 PM #126
SNAKESNIPER (Banned)
 
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You could make a fortune charging people for the bathrooms, they be paying out the *** even more so then
His field also has a "limited **** policy", if you crap out more than 3 turds per day, you must be one of those agglet kids who sprays **** everywhere indiscriminately, it makes things less fun for the toilet paper. You multi-turd crappers are ruining paintball! You're not welcome back at the field!

Last edited by SNAKESNIPER : 10-09-2012 at 08:54 PM.
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