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Old 10-05-2012, 06:55 PM #43
Horizon
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexisme View Post
You charge $160 for a case of paint. ANYONE paying that is what I would consider moronic.
I agree with you. Anyone buying a whole case to shoot at that price would be moronic. Luckily our customers are not morons for the most part so they don't do that.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:04 PM #44
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
I agree with you. Anyone buying a whole case to shoot at that price would be moronic. Luckily our customers are not morons for the most part so they don't do that.
Hey, I'm not knocking it, what you charge is your own agenda. If people will pay it, more power to them. I just dont think I could mark up something that much and feel good about myself..... and now que up and enter the.... "is paintball a dying sport topic"
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:34 AM #45
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Originally Posted by rexisme View Post
Hey, I'm not knocking it, what you charge is your own agenda. If people will pay it, more power to them. I just dont think I could mark up something that much and feel good about myself..... and now que up and enter the.... "is paintball a dying sport topic"
But you see the higher cost gets people to not buy (and shoot) huge amounts of paint and that is why paintball is thriving here and not dying. So now when you go to the "is paintball a dying sport topic" you can laugh at the schmucks that say paintball is dying because the paint is too expensive. You might even go so far as to let them know paintball may be hurting because paint is too cheap.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:30 AM #46
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Gotta love $100 fpo heat, and $10 field

I really wished we got F13 instead of heat, F13 has been so good to me
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:23 AM #47
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
But you see the higher cost gets people to not buy (and shoot) huge amounts of paint and that is why paintball is thriving here and not dying.
I don't think paintball is dying anywhere. I think that a bunch of people thought they saw a way to make easy money, jumped in without a good business plan, and oversaturated the market. What people are seeing now is just the natural progression. The fields that offered insane deals and offered sponsorships out the *** are dead and gone. The fields that cater to private groups and renters remain, because it is a more consistent market. This probably caused a bunch of people to move on to other things, because they no longer had a "cool field" within driving distance anymore.

What I'm saying is that I don't think your magical markup strategy would be of much use if paintball ever actually is dying.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:20 AM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSherman

I don't think paintball is dying anywhere. I think that a bunch of people thought they saw a way to make easy money, jumped in without a good business plan, and oversaturated the market. What people are seeing now is just the natural progression. The fields that offered insane deals and offered sponsorships out the *** are dead and gone. The fields that cater to private groups and renters remain, because it is a more consistent market. This probably caused a bunch of people to move on to other things, because they no longer had a "cool field" within driving distance anymore.

What I'm saying is that I don't think your magical markup strategy would be of much use if paintball ever actually is dying.
I feel the same way. People see that their local field closed or their local shop and think that means the sport is dying. Businesses open and close all the time. It's the ones who best know how to run their business in their area that survive while others fail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
But you see the higher cost gets people to not buy (and shoot) huge amounts of paint and that is why paintball is thriving here and not dying. So now when you go to the "is paintball a dying sport topic" you can laugh at the schmucks that say paintball is dying because the paint is too expensive. You might even go so far as to let them know paintball may be hurting because paint is too cheap.
Stop it! Lets not get with the wild exaggerations. I will give you that the low volume of paint shot at your field helps to draw more newbies and renter who are scared of the high volume games. I'm sure your field is primarily pump players or renters. But to say that your prices are helping paintball is a bit ridiculous. If anything people are getting LESS for their money from your field.
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Last edited by Soul06 : 10-06-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:18 AM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
I don't think paintball is dying anywhere. I think that a bunch of people thought they saw a way to make easy money, jumped in without a good business plan, and oversaturated the market. What people are seeing now is just the natural progression. The fields that offered insane deals and offered sponsorships out the *** are dead and gone. The fields that cater to private groups and renters remain, because it is a more consistent market. This probably caused a bunch of people to move on to other things, because they no longer had a "cool field" within driving distance anymore.
I don't think paintball is dying either. Paintball lives by the rules of Supply and Demand just like everything else. The players playing today are the ones are the ones willing to shell out the coin for what is being supplied, no more and no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSherman View Post
What I'm saying is that I don't think your magical markup strategy would be of much use if paintball ever actually is dying.
We don't have to worry, because paintball will never die. The customer base just changes with what is being offered. Even if everyone started shooting 5 cases per day at the same cost as they are now paying, there would still be people willing to play the game, just not as many.

And there is nothing magical about our markup strategy. It's just a way to get people to spend roughly the same amount of money but shoot less paintballs and thereby change the environment and what is being Supplied (which affects the Demand). It's a very simple strategy. No magic involved.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:29 AM #50
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Stop it! Lets not get with the wild exaggerations. I will give you that the low volume of paint shot at your field helps to draw more newbies and renter who are scared of the high volume games. I'm sure your field is primarily pump players or renters. But to say that your prices are helping paintball is a bit ridiculous. If anything people are getting LESS for their money from your field.
The only thing they are getting less of is paintballs. And yes, for some players that is a big deal, which is why the low volume structure changes the customer base. So yes, more of our players play with pumps and such.

But a paintball field is not in the business of only selling paintballs. Their main business is providing entertainment. So the real question becomes, does the volume of paintball shot change the value of the entertainment? If customers are playing at two identical fields and they are all paying $50, but at the one field they are shooting 500 paintballs each while at the other field they are shooting 2,000 each, what changes? The volume of paintballs shot and the environment, which both affect the entertainment value. But which will attract a wider demographic (more players)? Which version is considered better entertainment value by more people?

Last edited by Horizon : 10-06-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:33 PM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
The only thing they are getting less of is paintballs. And yes, for some players that is a big deal, which is why the low volume structure changes the customer base. So yes, more of our players play with pumps and such.

But a paintball field is not in the business of only selling paintballs. Their main business is providing entertainment. So the real question becomes, does the volume of paintball shot change the value of the entertainment? If customers are playing at two identical fields and they are all paying $50, but at the one field they are shooting 500 paintballs each while at the other field they are shooting 2,000 each, what changes? The volume of paintballs shot and the environment, which both affect the entertainment value. But which will attract a wider demographic (more players)? Which version is considered better entertainment value by more people?
There is the problem. You have this idea that your way is the only entertaining way. Completely and 100% FALSE!!!! There are many many players who actually do enjoy high volume, intense games. Everyone isn't looking for the low volume style of games you promote. They fact that I know of numerous fields, all high volume, which bring in more then 400-600 people per weekend is proof of that.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:08 PM #52
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Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
There is the problem. You have this idea that your way is the only entertaining way. Completely and 100% FALSE!!!! There are many many players who actually do enjoy high volume, intense games. Everyone isn't looking for the low volume style of games you promote. They fact that I know of numerous fields, all high volume, which bring in more then 400-600 people per weekend is proof of that.
When have I ever said that? I have always tried to make it very clear that at every intensity level (volume level) there is a certain Demand. Of course there is a demand for higher volume paintball. If there weren't the industry would have collapsed by now.

My opinion (and I don't think it is just an opinion, but an economic fact based on the Laws of Supply and Demand) that the Demand changes when the product changes. There is Demand for paintball facilities where the average customer shoots 6,000 paintballs and Demand for paintball facilities where the average customer shoots 100 paintballs (both of these extreme examples have fairly low Demand curves by the way) and Demand for everything in between. The majority of players wouldn't go to a facility where one is limited to 100 paintballs or less, nor would most go to a facility where the average player is shooting 6,000 paintballs. I think most people (not all) would agree with that statement. But we would go to a facility that lies somewhere between those two extremes. Every point in between has it's own Demand curve.

I have never said that the lower volume paintball experience is the only one with Demand. What I have said is that the lower volume version (less extreme version) appeals to a wider demographic, and therefore the Demand is probably higher.

Last edited by Horizon : 10-06-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:01 PM #53
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Read what you said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
If customers are playing at two identical fields and they are all paying $50, but at the one field they are shooting 500 paintballs each while at the other field they are shooting 2,000 each, what changes? The volume of paintballs shot and the environment, which both affect the entertainment value. But which will attract a wider demographic (more players)? Which version is considered better entertainment value by more people?
Now tell me that doesn't imply that you are saying "low volume" games are supposedly more entertaining by more people.
If you aren't saying that then fine. But its how it comes across.

As for demand for different types of fields, you will get no argument there from me. I know well that there are (and need to be) fields that cater to renters. Fields that cater more to gear owners. Fields that cater towards newbies shooting low volumes. Fields that cater to more advanced players. Fields catering to this and fields catering to that. variety is necessary
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:33 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
Read what you said here:



Now tell me that doesn't imply that you are saying "low volume" games are supposedly more entertaining by more people.
If you aren't saying that then fine. But its how it comes across.
It should come across like that because that is what I am implying. I have never said however that it is the only way that paintball should be played or that there is a demand for, which I was replying to your accusation about what I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
There is the problem. You have this idea that your way is the only entertaining way. Completely and 100% FALSE!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul06 View Post
As for demand for different types of fields, you will get no argument there from me. I know well that there are (and need to be) fields that cater to renters. Fields that cater more to gear owners. Fields that cater towards newbies shooting low volumes. Fields that cater to more advanced players. Fields catering to this and fields catering to that. variety is necessary
Good, then we are in agreement.
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:46 PM #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
It should come across like that because that is what I am implying. I have never said however that it is the only way that paintball should be played or that there is a demand for, which I was replying to your accusation about what I said:
We are going to have to agree to disagree on that because my personal experience says differently.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:28 PM #56
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Here in Australia, well Brisbane anyway, most of the fields run 3 hour sessions which is everything rental, its generally 100 bucks for 600 balls, end up paying around 150 for 1000 balls.

At another field if you pay their 80 bucks a year membership fee on scenario days you can get a case for 110 bucks, probably the best deal anywhere here.

Gotta love Aussie prices -.-
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:09 PM #57
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If I walked onto a field and saw $160 cases of paint I'd laugh at the owner right before I walked off the field. I'd also direct all the people I passed to a less retarded field. If the refs are too stupid to divide teams equally then they shouldn't be working. Trying to say that raping people on prices is noob friendly is plain moronic.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:34 PM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
Trying to say that raping people on prices is noob friendly is plain moronic.
Lets take this from another angle.

Two hypothetical fields, with different price structures.

One field has $20 entry, $15 rental, and $15 a bag of 500.

Other has $10 entry, free rental, and $40 a bag of 500.

For $50 you get the EXACT same starting gear and loadout if renting and sticking with 500 shots (which for many, many years was considered the normal suggested starting point for paint consumption).

Now the first field a player shows up with is own gear, and for $50 he's shooting 1000 shots. Rentals may feel a bit out classed.

Second field a player shows up with his own gear and still has the same 500 shots. He gets the added enjoyment of having his own nicer gear, but the other players may not feel as outclassed.

Lets assume the guy with his own gear is willing to spend a bit more money than a rental who might not be 100% on if this is a thing he'd like to spend a ton of money on. Say he'll blow $80.

On the first field that's entry and 2000 shots. Four times as much paint as the renter, who now will very likely feel overwhelmed.

On the second field that's entry and 1000 shots. Renter now may only feel a bit outclassed.

Now if you simply MUST shoot a case or more an outing to have a good time the first field is a fairly good deal, so you'll likely go there and be welcomed. The second field DOES NOT WANT YOU there (at least, not if you're going to play that way), and so they have a price setup specifically to keep you away, or to force you into a different play style if you do choose to play.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:07 AM #59
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Just because you buy a case of paint doesn't mean you're going to shoot it all. There's been several times where I've bought a case and only burned about 700-800 balls in an entire day.

Also your "other angle" is flawed. If someone brings all that paint on the field at one time there's a problem. Especially in rec ball. You're never going to burn that much paint in one match of rec ball. Woods or air. So this field owners idea to level the playing field by choosing to rape your wallet on paint is just plain dumb.

More and more when I see rentals at the field they rent pods and packs. So now your average rental is bringing a hopper, and 2 pods while your average geared person is going to have a hopper and 2-4 pods. I don't see that big of a difference that would make someone feel "outclassed" just by paint numbers.

Outclassing hails more from the gun someone's packing. Some rentals get scared when they see an electro come on the field. Whether its from a run in with some ******* that's running psp in the woods. Or cause they walked past the airball field off the break and heard 10 markers blaring and paint bouncing off the bunkers sounding like a machine gun. It all comes down to not the amount of paint, not the gear, but the person behind that rope that's pulling the trigger.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:33 AM #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byarosh201 View Post
Just because you buy a case of paint doesn't mean you're going to shoot it all. There's been several times where I've bought a case and only burned about 700-800 balls in an entire day.
It's not about what you buy, it's entirely about what you use. Did you have less enjoyment on the days you used less paint?

Quote:
Also your "other angle" is flawed. If someone brings all that paint on the field at one time there's a problem. Especially in rec ball. You're never going to burn that much paint in one match of rec ball.
I wasn't talking about per game. The entire hypothetical was for a full day. A 500 ball full day with out pods isn't two 200 shots games and a 100 shot quickie, it's more like ten 50 shot games. When you got to hold back to stretch a hopper over multiple games you may feel overwhelmed by someone who can waste a full hopper on a single game.

Quote:
More and more when I see rentals at the field they rent pods and packs. So now your average rental is bringing a hopper, and 2 pods while your average geared person is going to have a hopper and 2-4 pods. I don't see that big of a difference that would make someone feel "outclassed" just by paint numbers.
A renter with multiple pods isn't shooting 500 rounds in a day. It's altering what's considered "normal" for a day of play.

Quote:
Outclassing hails more from the gun someone's packing. Some rentals get scared when they see an electro come on the field. Whether its from a run in with some ******* that's running psp in the woods.
A player limited to 500 rounds in a day will have a very short day running ramping modes.

Quote:
Or cause they walked past the airball field off the break and heard 10 markers blaring and paint bouncing off the bunkers sounding like a machine gun.
You ever hear an airball game where everyone is playing hopper ball? I have. No one "blares" their gun off the break, they'd be out of paint way to quickly.

Quote:
It all comes down to not the amount of paint, not the gear, but the person behind that rope that's pulling the trigger.
Odd that your two examples were directly related to the amount of paint shot.

Now I enjoy a good hose fest as much as the next guy from time to time, but sure as heck don't think that should be considered "normal" play. I'm glad there are fields where I can go and play that way, but I'm also glad there are fields where 500 rounds a day is considered plenty and you don't need to shoot a case to be "competitive".
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:41 AM #61
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And I'm glad that there are fields who don't think all of their customers are stupid. I rarely shoot more than a bag a day now but I buy it by the case and either shoot the rest at home or bring it back next weekend.

Ripping off customers by charging $160 for a $45 box of paint is not a good idea. Its not something to be proud of or something I would advertise. I play often, and I play with pumps and classic mechs so I'm outgunned by even a rental, but I have never once in my life wished that I had to pay more for paint because it would "even the odds". Just moronic. Instead of being *******s and robbing people on a case of paint, just limit them to a bag a day. But this would make you lose money. It isn't that they care about protecting new players, its all about the money and they just found a nice way to sell it off as a good practice.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:44 AM #62
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I enjoy both ways and even on airball when people are dumping pods like pros. I will shoot a hopper or hopper plus 1 TOPS. I don't feel a need to burn through paint playing in the snake. Most of the time at least. Regardless limiting someone's total paint per day by inserting a price point that's through the roof isn't a good business tactic.

Instead if the field wants to keep it limited in how much is shot per game, or per day. The field should invent creative fields that reward aggressive movement, and positioning over pitching a tent behind some bunker. On fields that are well planned, there's going to be far less paint spent.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:58 AM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
I rarely shoot more than a bag a day now but I buy it by the case and either shoot the rest at home or bring it back next weekend.
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just limit them to a bag a day. But this would make you lose money.
So you say you rarely shoot more than a bag per day, even at $45/case and you also understand that the field would lose money if players were limited to shooting only a bag per day at those prices.

Hmmm, I see a problem with that scenario.
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