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Old 09-18-2012, 09:22 PM #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa View Post
The point is that you, nor anyone else, has the right to tell another human being who they can love or what they want to do with their body.
I think assisted suicide should be legal.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:30 PM #401
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Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa View Post
Did you miss the part where I said some sacrifices have to be made when living in an organized society? Come on man, I'm not a *******. The point is that you, nor anyone else, has the right to tell another human being who they can love or what they want to do with their body. How anyone could feel empowered to do so really just boggles my mind.
I'll agree about homosexuality.

Abortion is alot more complicated, until everyone agrees on a time when a fetus becomes a baby. which wont happen.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:48 PM #402
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I'll agree about homosexuality.

Abortion is alot more complicated, until everyone agrees on a time when a fetus becomes a baby. which wont happen.
That doesn't even matter. A fetus will become a human being eventually.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:54 PM #403
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That doesn't even matter. A fetus will become a human being eventually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:18 AM #404
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Dont be an *** you know damn well what I mean.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:58 AM #405
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Dont be an *** you know damn well what I mean.
No, I have no idea what you mean. The biological act of procreation is fraught with threat of failure at every point along the way. This is an intrinsic consideration that makes the whole ethical question murky.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:35 AM #406
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Originally Posted by OhIoCoNtRActKilLa View Post
And the worldview of Christianity is better in what way?

If I choose to love another man, your religion will not allow it.

If I am a woman who is pregnant, your religion will not allow me to have an abortion.

If I choose to have pre-marital sex, your religion will not allow it.


How is it that you can support the organization that enforces these rulings? How can you honestly say that you are indeed a good person when you feel it is your right to tell another human being what they may or may not do? Who has given you or anyone else that right?

Edit: To FE

First off, I don't like religion. Religion is often mans interpretation of God. Many times, man uses his role to manipulate and control people. I am a Christian, but in the sense that I am a Christ follower. If my church tells me to do something, I compare what they are telling me to the scripture, and if it doesn't jive, then I don't follow that teaching.

That is the problem with a lot of "christians" today, they don't know the Bible, or read it, they don't do what is required of people who follow Christ. They think they will go to heaven because they attend church on Sunday or said enough "hail mary's", but salvation isn't dependent on your church attendance, or rituals... It is only dependent on your relationship with Christ. If you have accepted the Blood of Christ to cover your sins, you are good with God, but that is just the beginning of a Christians walk with Christ.


As to your "sin" questions. The problem people have with sin, is they want to make this or that sin as worse than other sins...

Sin, is sin. ANY sin separates us from God. So if you white lie, that white lie makes you just as guilty as the murderer, as you can no longer be one with God now that you have put sin in your life. That is why the scriptures say, "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". Romans 3:23

So if ALL have sinned, then why do we as a society pick certain sins as "worse" than other sins? We are all sinners.

Well, that goes to the moral compass (or worldview) of the individual, if you are going to enter into a business partnership with a person, but that person lies, steals and cheats all the time, will that be an effective partnership?

Of course not, they would rob, steal and cheat you out of business...

So civilized society makes rules to protect people from these sinners. Does it make the sinners go away? Nope. They are still here, but society doesn't ADVOCATE for those sins, or make them acceptable...

The gay marriage thing falls into this realm. Speaking generally based on statistics, and studies, gay people are very promiscuous, they have sex with multiple partners at a much higher rate than non gay people. This lifestyle has consequences to society, increases in psychological issues, increases in sexually transmitted diseases, and increases in harm to children, as many gay people are also predators to children. This isn't my "opinion" but backed up with studies and statistics.

http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/promiscuity/

In fact, now that gay marriage has been pushed on our society by the morally bankrupt, the next wave of promiscuous attacks to our culture has been started.

http://gawker.com/pedophilia/

So the bar has been lowered yet again. And it will continue, as if someone chooses to have sex with a child, according to your logic, how can society stop them?


See that is the problem, a moral decline affects the morals of the society. Today we all say stealing is wrong, and yet... The democratic party is actually running on a platform that says "redistribution" is a good thing. Obama has been on record as an advocate for stealing from the rich and giving it to his friends (not the poor like he suggests) for over a decade.



That is stealing, as Obama and the government have no right to arbitrarily steal from private citizens no matter what their economic situation is.

Having money isn't a stable thing, I've made hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single year, and the next year made half that... Why should the government be able to steal from me in the years I do really well for my family?

That is a major moral decline in our society.

To your question on a woman being "able" to kill her child. Why should we as a society not allow people to kill their children?... What difference does it make where that child is located? If you say, "well it is her body, so she can do with it what she wants".

Then can she blow herself up in a crowded room? It is her body...

Oh wait, that action would AFFECT OTHERS, so it would be wrong.

The baby is affected if she kills it. That is the problem, if she doesn't want the kid, put it up for adoption. To KILL the child is the ultimate in child abuse.

But, Obama voted to kill children born alive after a failed partial birth abortion.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...trick-brennan#

He did that 3 times while in the Illinois senate. And yet, he is never called "extreme" in his ideology by the liberal media. Event though he is an advocate for infanticide.


As far as the premarital sex, yes, I believe that is wrong. But, again, so is lying, or stealing, or cheating. If you want to see what the Bible says, it goes WAY further, saying that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, it is the same as committing the act with her...

So clearly ALL of us have sinned. Again proving that without the Blood of Christ to cover our sins, we will be separated from God.

This doesn't mean that Christians don't sin, as we ALL sin, but Christians can get right with God by claiming the blood to cover their sins, that free gift is unique in all "religions". Most religions in our world are based on works, you have to DO something to be 'saved'. True Christianity isn't like that, (course some of the Christian "religious" leaders have made rules that give them power and control over people by saying these "rituals" are critical for salvation) true Christianity is following Christ and accepting His FREE gift for our salvation. Once you accept that free gift, you sins are forgiven, and you are for the first time in your life sinless. That doesn't mean you won't sin anymore, but you will now be alerted to sin, as you can handle it, just like you were when you were a child. See, sin hardens our hearts, if you don't steal, and then you steal the first time, you KNOW you did wrong. Some call that conscience, but that is your spirit telling right and wrong. If you keep stealing, pretty soon, you don't hear that "wrong" in your spirit, as the sin has blocked it out... This is an example of moral decline.

A civil society needs rules to function, or "civil morality". If we allow teachers to have sex with kids, and kids to have sex in classrooms, what would that do to our society? All rules come from moral judgments, and when we as a society don't teach morals in our schools, we end up in the situation we are in today. Where people don't have a moral standard that is consistent. Each person has their OWN rules for their lives... So we end up with politicians having sex with interns in the oval office, and wall street guys stealing money from others, and government giving money to their friends that they stole from people they don't like, and teachers getting paid massive amounts of money to give kids a failing education...

And then we wonder why society and the world is such a mess...
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:12 AM #407
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Your websites aren't credible, btw.

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And then we wonder why society and the world is such a mess...
Misinformation.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:17 AM #408
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No, I have no idea what you mean. The biological act of procreation is fraught with threat of failure at every point along the way. This is an intrinsic consideration that makes the whole ethical question murky.
Barring complications it will eventually become a human being. Otherwise no one would care.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:32 AM #409
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So civilized society makes rules to protect people from these sinners. Does it make the sinners go away? Nope. They are still here, but society doesn't ADVOCATE for those sins, or make them acceptable...
Herein lies a basis for contention between you and the people with whom you disagree: should liberal democracy be a conduit for upholding religious dogma? I personally don't believe so, and I feel I have our nation's founding document on my side.

What is a "sin"? How does one go about defining a "sinner"? You ask ten people on the street for a laundry list of sins, and dollars to donuts you'll find contradictions between their responses. That's not even bringing up the issue of actions expressly forbade in one religion but wholly disregarded by another. Ask SuperSupra his thoughts on gharar, then tell us whether or not you believe such practice is a sin.

Liberal democracy is almost inherently at odds with any explicit form of religious canon, and for good reason: how can a system designed to give freedom of expression to all members of the system be used as a means of facilitating a certain set of religious precepts? How can faith be a personal matter (nay, how can one come to belief in a higher power of one's own accord) if the institutions and laws for which one is subject to are dictated by set of specific religious axioms?
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:06 AM #410
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Herein lies a basis for contention between you and the people with whom you disagree: should liberal democracy be a conduit for upholding religious dogma? I personally don't believe so, and I feel I have our nation's founding document on my side.

What is a "sin"? How does one go about defining a "sinner"? You ask ten people on the street for a laundry list of sins, and dollars to donuts you'll find contradictions between their responses. That's not even bringing up the issue of actions expressly forbade in one religion but wholly disregarded by another. Ask SuperSupra his thoughts on gharar, then tell us whether or not you believe such practice is a sin.

Liberal democracy is almost inherently at odds with any explicit form of religious canon, and for good reason: how can a system designed to give freedom of expression to all members of the system be used as a means of facilitating a certain set of religious precepts? How can faith be a personal matter (nay, how can one come to belief in a higher power of one's own accord) if the institutions and laws for which one is subject to are dictated by set of specific religious axioms?

This is a typical tactic by liberals, they change what our country was founded as (a republic) into a liberal democracy.

Our country was founded on the basis of law, as that is what keeps us all free.

This video explains it faster than I can.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

But, quotes from our founders make it clear their position on morality and the rule of law. (our republic).

"[i]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)


"[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)


"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."

(Source: William V. Wells, The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams (Boston: Little, Brown, & Co., 1865), Vol. I, p. 22, quoting from a political essay by Samuel Adams published in The Public Advertiser, 1749.)

"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)


"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."

(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)



I could go on and on quoting our founding fathers views on morality and a civilized society and the foundation of the Bible as the key to our system of government, but those clearly point out that without morality, our Republic is doomed to failure.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:20 AM #411
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Quote:
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This is a typical tactic by liberals, they change what our country was founded as (a republic) into a liberal democracy.
I should have known the use of the word "liberal" would have turned this discussion into a childish pissing match with you. Yes, the United States is a liberal democracy. Get over it.


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I could go on and on quoting our founding fathers views on morality and a civilized society and the foundation of the Bible blah blah MF'ing blah
Yeah, safe for the fact that you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT REFERENCE THE CONSTITUTION TO MAKE SUCH A POINT.

Care to actually address the substance of my post, or are just gonna continue posting irrelevant quotations? I swear to God, attempting to facilitate discussion with you is like trying to hold a discussion with a vocal autistic child. You're off in your own little world.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:43 AM #412
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Hmm, a liberal using ad hominem attacks...

Typical.

Didn't watch the video, huh...

When you say the pledge of allegiance, do you say "and to the republic on which we stand" or "and to the democracy on which we stand"?...

How about in the constitution Article IV section 4. Does it read "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government"

Or does it read "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Democratic Form of Government"...


We have representatives for a reason... Because our country is a REPUBLIC. Not a democracy, where each of us would vote for everything OURSELVES.

Notice I did all of that without insulting your intelligence, or calling you names, or blasphemy.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:45 AM #413
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Hey ... easy on the autistic kids ... my nephew is trying. He even knows who I am now
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:50 AM #414
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Hmm, a liberal using ad hominem attacks...

Typical.

Didn't watch the video, huh...

When you say the pledge of allegiance, do you say "and to the republic on which we stand" or "and to the democracy on which we stand"?...

How about in the constitution Article IV section 4. Does it read "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government"

Or does it read "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Democratic Form of Government"...


We have representatives for a reason... Because our country is a REPUBLIC. Not a democracy, where each of us would vote for everything OURSELVES.

Notice I did all of that without insulting your intelligence, or calling you names, or blasphemy.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:59 AM #415
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I have honestly attempted to connect with FreeEnterprise but it is a lost cause. He is so far engulfed in his own world that he refuses to consider point of views that do not align with his own.

It's just truly amazing that he allows a book to dictate his life. Nothing but a collection of papers with words.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:01 AM #416
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recap,

Liberal makes false statement, claims there is no way he is wrong, and the Constitution backs him up (no citing of the document at all), and then I reference the Constitution and prove him wrong.

liberal throws his hands up and leaves.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is...

lol.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:10 AM #417
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It's not just the fact that a book dictates his beliefs, billions of people live like that. its the fact that everything he observes is interpreted to solidify his view of the world. He is incapable of critical thought, EVERYTHING supports his ideology that liberals are evil liars, god actively intervenes in everyday life, and the separation of church and state is hateful and historically unfounded.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:16 AM #418
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Liberal makes false statement, claims there is no way he is wrong, and the Constitution backs him up (no citing of the document at all), and then I reference the Constitution and prove him wrong.

liberal throws his hands up and leaves.
You haven't the faintest idea what the phrase "liberal democracy" actually means, but feel free to attribute your misunderstanding to my alleged false statement.

It's like a kid who wants to play football with the rest of the neighborhood children, but then attempts to play something resembling soccer. When told that he doesn't know how to play football, the kid respond "well obviously YOU don't understand the game of football; the word FOOT is right there in the name."
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:18 AM #419
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He is literally so terrified of the world liberal. If there is a god I don't blame him for intervening in his life, the guy needs it.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:20 AM #420
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