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Old 08-26-2012, 10:31 PM #1
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DC reffing

Well, here we are folks.

For what its worth, I am going to make some comments and suggestions. Concerning DC NPPL Event Hopefully the officials and powers that be that REALLY care about the functioning of the reffing officials will actually do something about this to rectify the situation at hand.

DC field 2 officiating was a Complete Sham. I have never ever seen such Incompetance and lack of common sense in reffing in all of my years competing and reffing and thats been 12yrs.

To site: Indecisiveness, Inconsistancy, and lack of attention for starters.

The Indecisions in:
*Calling players out
*Penalties
*Who shot who first (which can be tricky but im talking the obvious ones)

The Inconsistancy in:
*Penalties(some called, some not) for the same situation and by same ref at that. Especially for pack hits.
*Pulling players out who are legitimately hit. (yes i understand its the players job but who are we kidding here?) Ive seen refs jump on possibly hit players like they were sacking a quarterback. Refs still do more than signal players out.
*Enforcing official rules across the board. (its Very on and off)

Lack of attention in:
* CrossCheck reffing (to catch any inside shots on players across field to help his fellow ref for those who didnt understand what i meant.)
* Ghosting players for no apparent reason. Seen a couple refs who signaled at a player than backed off the call.
* Just an overall lack of enough experience, or simple carelessness.

Very Very Very Poor Reffing on Field 2.

Other divisional teams should not be subjected to that kind of officiating just because they arent pros. (Yes I said it!) I most certainly do feel that way. And apparently Chicago was a problem as well, so it would seem to be its becoming progressively worse.

Suggestions:

Unobvious Hit penalties:

I know they do this to deter playing on but instead of pulling penalties on unobvious legitamate pack hits, how bout only pulling this on run-thru players only.

Positioned players should not be punished because they arent in an aggressive play.

Maybe deduct points if they actually shoot someone while hit in prelims, and if your gonna insist on the 1 for 1 then save it for finals since there are no points.

Give some kind of benefit of the doubt because there are glancing hits that players simply wont feel. you can just chalk it up to rule on paper because you have no real answer or solution to a legitamate claim.

Glancing hits should be reconsidered depending on where they are at.

Allow them to call for paint checks without fear of penalty (IF) they are hits that a player truly cant identify.

Players feel bodily impacts. They should feel for it and pull themselves if it broke.

For Bareback hits a player should cease aggression and paint check if possible or risk 1 for 1 penalty. Sometimes it maybe to close to call in which just call both out like usual.

Otherwise pack hits should require a refs assistance in order for a player to pull himself out. Dead on impact maybe questionable as far as feeling them at times.

Refs need to back off players and (not be so obvious) when watching a particular players unless they need to get in there. No Pointing at players unless you plan on signaling or pulling him out.

Some of these refs just seem like they have never gone thru any training on the various scenarios that require rule of thumb decisions or common sense. They are essential to fair reffing as best as humanly possible.

This is about giving Honest players a fair shot when competing. Hate putting all this money into national tourneys and getting sub par reffing or worse. And im sure i am definitley Not the only one. Im not talking about human mistake calls. Im talking about staffing competancy on these fields for ALL teams. Sends a bad insinuating msg that if you want decent reffing you have to play D1 or Pro.

Thats my 2 cents. For what its worth.
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:17 PM #2
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This is so true. The reffing was so bad on field two that I will never again play and NPPL event. For how high the entry is you think the reffing would atleast be at a local 3 man caliber, but it was much lower then that. I've spent quite a few years with the NPPL, and I've come to the conclusion that its just a waste of money and time.
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:24 PM #3
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I understand that there is always a problem with some reffing at an event. But they have a very hard job. They get there at the break of dawn and leave at night. Some things can change with consistency, but I do feel that the reffing was good this event.

and don't complain that your never playing an event again just because you got knocked out in prelims. that's just childish, especially blaming the reffing staff for your loses.
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:40 PM #4
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Didn't get knocked out in prelims, I'm just not blind to facts. Lots of professionals work morning till night and perform well. The reffing at this event was garbage, and there are plenty of other teams that were also playing on Sunday that would agree with me.
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:46 AM #5
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If a player had to play for 10 hours straight with few breaks, and get G's every point, would this be considered a reasonable expectation?

The simple solution is, as usual, experienced refs - but 2 squads of them. 1st lineup refs morning games, 2nd lineup does the afternoon.

Each lineup gets paid half the daily pay rate, but they get a half day off to play, rest, shop, argue with their girlfriend.

Simple.
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Old 08-27-2012, 07:52 AM #6
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I love the NPPL, My team placed top 4 this event.... The reffing on field 2 was a joke.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:02 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan UK Refs View Post
If a player had to play for 10 hours straight with few breaks, and get G's every point, would this be considered a reasonable expectation?

The simple solution is, as usual, experienced refs - but 2 squads of them. 1st lineup refs morning games, 2nd lineup does the afternoon.

Each lineup gets paid half the daily pay rate, but they get a half day off to play, rest, shop, argue with their girlfriend.

Simple.
Then let's make it happen. I for 1 didn't have a single problem with bad calls until the first game of Quarter Finals. The refs on field 2 did seem lazy, indecisive, and inconsistent at best. I would go as far as to say that it would of been quite easy for any team to sneak other players on their roster because nothing got checked the entire event not even on Sunday. Not to mention almost EVERYTIME someone got bunkered almost every time they called both players out. Even on occasions where it was obvious one player spun. It was a joke and my team benefited from it twice.

I personally don't blame the refs for our losses. Especially the second; however there were a few times where clearly guys were tired of reffing. Sunday I was in the center 50 Wing facing the snake and got called out by the Snake Sideline Judge for a back hit.. I never shot my gun or anything but because he was standing behind the snake I didn't know if he was pointing to him or me since I had no hits on the front of me and I had just snapped with the snake. Then once he actually made a movement towards me I realized who he was talking to. AGAIN I didn't shoot or anything and he's screaming like I'm trying to run down the field; all while I'm asking if he's talking to me or the snake guy lol.

Now these things happen but after the game when I approached the head ref I get asked 15 times if I'm the captain; which I am. No one can say where I was hit except the back even though that was when I was walking away and to top it off. Some ******* in a green NPPL shirt is yelling we need to get off the field. Well to that said *******. We paid money to play the event if I want clarity on why I was given a penalty and where I got shot as the captain I have that right.

Overall the way the event was run was not very stellar. I'll admit I've played mostly NPPL in my paintball career but this was my first event since 2008 and when I left the league was ran much better. It was about the players, we knew prizes, the refs worked very hard. After watching PSP MAO in my backyard I regret not playing the event instead and to be honest with you my team probably did a lot better in DC Open than we would have in MAO. but overall the quality of the event, organization, staff, etc was poor.

All I'm really looking for is the staff, refs, and organization to treat the players like they should and that's with respect. If you don't know the prizes, or why the ID cards aren't ready even though they were paid for a month ago, or why someone was given a penalty.. THAT'S FINE just don't be a dick about it to the people that are spending their hard earned money to play in your league.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:06 AM #8
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Forget to mention I prefer the 7-man format and would like to see it continue. This is to whatever loser kid comments and says go play PSP later.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:35 AM #9
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The reffing was so ****ing god awful to the point that I'm not going to play another nppl event ever in my life. Period.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:49 AM #10
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Ok, Now I know this may be looked at a certain way because my team won, but the reffing at DC was a big improvement from Chicago. Not saying it was perfect, it was not and I had my one ***** on the field, but still, an improvement and that should be recognized.
Now I just hope they do keep going in that direction and I would be a big fan of bringing back some of those intrical pieces of the staff that they had in DC and Vegas of last year. Doing that, I feel we all can be more confident in the product we invest our money into.
So, if this is a step in the right direction, lets hope it continues to go that same way as we approach Vegas.
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:59 AM #11
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:12 AM #12
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:33 AM #13
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Prime example. I played the tower in the center all weekend and I would see the ref call the opposing teams snake player out then change his mind and call him clean ?! Wtf ! How are you gonna call a player out then change your ****ing mind a few seconds later and call a minor on me because he has 3 giant hits on his shoulder from where where my player bunkered him and a hit on his loader where I shot him yet after he's hit he shoots me in the arm and I get a minor ! Goodbye nppl.

Edit : the video that is above is AGAINST my team. That was finals. Tell me how games are supposed to be fair when blatant bull**** calls are made like this ? Psp def has their **** together cause reffing on the 2nd turf field was like a bunch of retards trying to officiate a game.
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:24 PM #14
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I was standing right in front of that last snake knuckle on the sideline. That player had three hits on his chest, one very obvious in his middle chest. As he rolled over to "check" himself and the ref dove in, he rubbed them off with his arm while examining his jersey for hits, right in front of the refs. Glad someone caught this on video.

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Old 08-27-2012, 12:47 PM #15
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I played PSP MAO and can say the reffing on the fields we played on was total **** & was so far below the level that it was at when I used to ref PSP. I cheated more times in the two days at that event than I have done in a whole season of playing CXBL & Millennium combined.

I have played all the NPPL events this year so far and can say that the reffing at this event was the lowest quality so far. Chicago was bad at times but at least it was not bad calls like pulling players for no reason while acting like a player had played on, allowing players to keep playing after being hit to then call them out after they shot out 2-3 people on the field.

Early Sunday morning watching some games on the pro field the snake side ref wearing #29 allowed the snake player who was hit in the head on the way in go all the way up to the 50 shoot out players cross field then trade with the snake player. I was sitting on the back side of the grandstands and could see all of the paint in the players hair from there. It was D1 or D2 and since I don't play that division have no issue with on who moved on or not but slightly expected higher quality refs on the pro field.

The people who say the job is hard, no one wants to do it, or bla bla bla my reply is when the sport if organized (or says that is it organized) they need to improve their brand/product by providing the best staff possible who make the experience for the players the best they can. Sadly when teams pay a good bit for entry an amount should go to have high quality refs who are apart of the whole season so it isn't a handful of local people who took a one or two day clinic or those who haven't been reffing the tournament scene and might have only started into paintball for 1-2 years and don't really understand what high quality reffing is.

At any event I have played I will always shake the hands of the refs even if they make good or bad calls since it is a job with no thanks & something no one wants to do but I honestly couldn't put myself to this at the event. I will say that the poor field 2 chrono ref tried as much as possible to keep games on time & to wrangle teams but yet again logistics of having a chrono ref/off field schedule keeper in the far corner away from teams seemed rather foolish. No mentioning the 8 times that air fill station o-ring had to be replaced in the first day of game play either.

While I will still say I had a good time due to being around folks who are apart of the event circuit both working and playing. It comes down to the amount of logistic and staffing quality at the end of the day and I was terribly let down with what I saw at PEVs this past weekend.

Thanks though to the NPPL for going out of the way with the free sandwich and 2 beer on Saturday as those types of things which players appreciate but they don't make up for the low points of the event.
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Old 08-27-2012, 12:59 PM #16
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Reading threads like this makes me sad. I was a proud NPPL ref and miss the days when people actually complimented the reffing. Reffing has never been perfect, and I am far from the perfect ref, but I do know it's not what it was or could be.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:05 PM #17
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I was a proud NPPL ref and miss the days when people actually complimented the reffing.
Come back from being retired then, the old squads of high quality refs need to return to save the leagues both the NPPL & PSP....

On an other note just talked to a friend who played D4 5-man at the event. He noticed on the drive home his ID had his as a D1 ranked player by mistake/misprint. Oddly enough it was not picked up all event long over the three days of games. Players ID's also seems to be an issue with temp ID's being an okay solution for players who had registered/paid at the first of the season but still do not have the proper ID.

Not wanting to change the topic of the thread or even say that other things are an issue with ID systems but I don't think I saw one ref check ID's all event long.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:05 PM #18
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Ive been to plenty of local tourneys where the reffing was way more up to par. But really though, field 2 was pretty bad as far as refs go. I feel like the NPPL is trying so hard to make it the best tournament series in the world again, but they need to start with the basics for how a paintball tournament is run. Don't get me wrong, the dc event ran very smoothly in my opinion, as far as the schedule goes. Regardless, the players deserve to be treated the way they should, and they deserve to have decent refs on the field, ones that actually wanna be there.

Besides all the indecisiveness and laziness from the reffing. I think the craziest thing I witnessed was a guy from my team getting pulled off the field for shooting 301 fps. And that was durring the game. Really nppl?

Besides all that I think everyone above has said what I would have liked to. I'm really looking forward to PSP world cup.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:28 PM #19
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Come back from being retired then, the old squads of high quality refs need to return to save the leagues both the NPPL & PSP....
I wish it were that easy. There have been changes since the "old squads" were around and that's one reason most of us aren't there. Trust me, if it was like it was between 2006-2008, I would still be reffing. I've done 16 NPPL events and would love to have added more to the list, but for now, being retired is more appealing.
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:57 PM #20
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Just want you guys to know i have carefully read all of the comments since my post thus far. I want to encourage those who play 7man for the love of it not to turn your back on it because of this, but Demand change instead. If enough of us competitors do this they have to change for the better or risk losing out.

I happen to love 7man format. I dont neccessarily care for xball format(nothing against psp). But if their reffing is more secure and on point than NPPL, then i can understand the migration of teams. But which ever formats we play it shouldnt be based on the caliber of reffing. But its not our fault thats whats been one of the driving forces behind it. NPPL has to get it together.

Reffing is not an easy job by a long shot. you get fatigued, shot and fussed at all day and required to stand the majority of the time. Its alot to deal with. I get it. But by no means should these refs be allowed to deteriorate to the point of no longer caring about doing the right thing. You had some of these refs moving to the beat of spectators dictating to them who to check and who is out. Whats up with that?

That video is right on the money I must say. I have no problem with them talking improvements as long as they actually make them. And no i didnt see any real or consistant i.d checking at event either. Its bad enough teams sandbag as a result of the unwillingness of rank sanctioning bodies to cooperate with each other.

p.s yes i agree. that field 2 chrono ref did do a good job at keeping teams informed of their playing schedules etc. big props to him.

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Old 08-27-2012, 02:18 PM #21
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Then let's make it happen. I for 1 didn't have a single problem with bad calls until the first game of Quarter Finals. The refs on field 2 did seem lazy, indecisive, and inconsistent at best. I would go as far as to say that it would of been quite easy for any team to sneak other players on their roster because nothing got checked the entire event not even on Sunday. Not to mention almost EVERYTIME someone got bunkered almost every time they called both players out. Even on occasions where it was obvious one player spun. It was a joke and my team benefited from it twice.

I personally don't blame the refs for our losses. Especially the second; however there were a few times where clearly guys were tired of reffing. Sunday I was in the center 50 Wing facing the snake and got called out by the Snake Sideline Judge for a back hit.. I never shot my gun or anything but because he was standing behind the snake I didn't know if he was pointing to him or me since I had no hits on the front of me and I had just snapped with the snake. Then once he actually made a movement towards me I realized who he was talking to. AGAIN I didn't shoot or anything and he's screaming like I'm trying to run down the field; all while I'm asking if he's talking to me or the snake guy lol.

Now these things happen but after the game when I approached the head ref I get asked 15 times if I'm the captain; which I am. No one can say where I was hit except the back even though that was when I was walking away and to top it off. Some ******* in a green NPPL shirt is yelling we need to get off the field. Well to that said *******. We paid money to play the event if I want clarity on why I was given a penalty and where I got shot as the captain I have that right.

Overall the way the event was run was not very stellar. I'll admit I've played mostly NPPL in my paintball career but this was my first event since 2008 and when I left the league was ran much better. It was about the players, we knew prizes, the refs worked very hard. After watching PSP MAO in my backyard I regret not playing the event instead and to be honest with you my team probably did a lot better in DC Open than we would have in MAO. but overall the quality of the event, organization, staff, etc was poor.

All I'm really looking for is the staff, refs, and organization to treat the players like they should and that's with respect. If you don't know the prizes, or why the ID cards aren't ready even though they were paid for a month ago, or why someone was given a penalty.. THAT'S FINE just don't be a dick about it to the people that are spending their hard earned money to play in your league.

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