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Old 08-14-2012, 12:13 PM #1
TheSilentAssassin
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Paul Ryan, Ayn Rand, and the Christian Right

I don't know quite how to start this conversation except by simply asking the question. If you are unaware of what I am talking about here is a good introductory piece.

1) Do you see Paul Ryan's objectivistic views as a positive or negative step in the ideology of this nation? Do you feel like this objectivism is on the rise or on the decline? Should this be a worry of our nation? Why isn't this talked about?

2) Why do you think Paul Ryan felt the need to lie about his connection to Ayn Rand? Why is he hiding from his objectivistic beliefs? Should he have to?

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...d-robert-costa
"In the interview, he called reports of his adherence to Rand's views an "urban legend" and said that he was more deeply influenced by his Roman Catholic faith and by Thomas Aquinas."

http://www.atlassociety.org/ele/blog...hot-seat-again
"In that speech, Ryan said, "I grew up reading Ayn Rand and it taught me quite a bit about who I am and what my value systems are and what my beliefs are. It's inspired me so much that it's required reading in my office for all my interns and my staff." He went on to say that "the reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand. And the fight we are in here, make no mistake about it, is a fight of individualism versus collectivism."

3) Do you feel a disconnect or maybe even a hypocrisy between the objectivism and Christian ideals presented by the GoP? Do you see a hypocrisy where the GoP presents its objectivistic message as Christian to the point that it is renounced by scholars and church alike? Why do you think the average american Christian is unable of seeing this disconnect?

That seems like a good start. I'm not necessarily concerned with staying on those topics specifically. Feel free to tangent on anything pertaining to the subject. However, I would like an intelligent discussion. If you can't handle that, please just don't post.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:54 PM #2
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1) Objectivism declaring that reality is absolute and truth is wonderful but everything that follows is complete garbage. It isn't talked about because most people are pin heads. I don't like the collectivism vs. Individualism dichotomy we've created for ourselves. I think that is more dangerous than either of the two for it confuses the perception of collective good and individual good.

2) He is a politician. I don't know how far apart the two statements are. People change.

3) Christians believe in an Objective reality in a sort of platonic monist way. Well the bright ones like Aquinas that is. The pursuit of individual happiness is not considered a path to God. In fact it would seem quite the opposite. Christianity mostly condemns the pursuit of ones self interest. As for the GOPs position on welfare, it does jive with Christianity a bit. Christians are called to act on will. I dont believe that forced charity qualifies as a righteous deed because it is collected and distributed without a will being exercised. It depends how you look at it really.
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:29 PM #3
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:08 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
...
3) Christians believe in an Objective reality in a sort of platonic monist way. Well the bright ones like Aquinas that is. The pursuit of individual happiness is not considered a path to God. In fact it would seem quite the opposite. Christianity mostly condemns the pursuit of ones self interest. As for the GOPs position on welfare, it does jive with Christianity a bit. Christians are called to act on will. I dont believe that forced charity qualifies as a righteous deed because it is collected and distributed without a will being exercised. It depends how you look at it really.
"I help you because it helps me" isn't antithetical to christianity.

I enjoy this discussion, it is along the same vein as Obama's connection to Saul Alinsky (and his to Mao and his little red book).
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Old 08-15-2012, 06:36 PM #5
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Wolf in sheep's clothing, he voted for tarp, part d medicare and is a war hawk. I don't get how people can claim to believe one thing or a variation of it and their actions do not align with it. Straight up hypocrisy to say the least, its like a Christian declaring to follow Jesus, but constantly judging and fighting with others who don't believe or follow their lifestyle.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:43 PM #6
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Ayn Rand and objectivism are good things.


Modern neo-conservatives suck.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:52 PM #7
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
1) Objectivism declaring that reality is absolute and truth is wonderful but everything that follows is complete garbage. It isn't talked about because most people are pin heads. I don't like the collectivism vs. Individualism dichotomy we've created for ourselves. I think that is more dangerous than either of the two for it confuses the perception of collective good and individual good.

2) He is a politician. I don't know how far apart the two statements are. People change.

3) Christians believe in an Objective reality in a sort of platonic monist way. Well the bright ones like Aquinas that is. The pursuit of individual happiness is not considered a path to God. In fact it would seem quite the opposite. Christianity mostly condemns the pursuit of ones self interest. As for the GOPs position on welfare, it does jive with Christianity a bit. Christians are called to act on will. I dont believe that forced charity qualifies as a righteous deed because it is collected and distributed without a will being exercised. It depends how you look at it really.
Forced charity is alive and well in the christian faiths. Its called tithing.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:57 PM #8
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Free will dictates that tithing is voluntary.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:35 AM #9
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
"I help you because it helps me" isn't antithetical to christianity.

I enjoy this discussion, it is along the same vein as Obama's connection to Saul Alinsky (and his to Mao and his little red book).

I don't disagree but I was trying to state that I believe Christianity desires this to be an act of ones free will. Righteousness in a sense. Hopefully that makes more sense. I might be completely off base.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:26 PM #10
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Well, it is kind of odd the number of articles of late coming out on Paul Ryan, seemingly to question if he is religious enough for his religion to govern and Ryan's reading of Ayn Rand.

Enjoyed Seth Mandel's article on that topic. It would be nice if greater interest had been placed in finding out more about President Obama's political influences of Saul Alinsky or Rashid Khalidi.

"Selective “Theocracy” from the Left"

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/20...ryan-ayn-rand/

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...But back to Ryan, because we’ll be hearing a lot more about his values, as the left interprets them, as this election rolls along. A very interesting example came about this week when Aaron Goldstein of the American Spectator asked why the media insists on analyzing the influence of Atlas Shrugged author and libertarian thinker Ayn Rand on Ryan, yet continue to display an utter lack of interest in President Obama’s intellectual influences, like Saul Alinsky or Rashid Khalidi. Dave Weigel makes a sharp observation in response, noting that one reason has to do with how severely Ryan’s Catholic faith clashes with Rand’s Objectivist philosophy. Indeed it does—and Rand’s worldview clashes with Judaism as well (and organized religion in general). I would also note that Rand’s poisonous Objectivism is wholly incompatible with conservatism as well, to the extent that it would be difficult for the two to thrive in the same space....
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:47 PM #11
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Ayn Rand is a **** bag
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:22 PM #12
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Ayn Rand is a **** bag
What a productive thought provoking comment. So glad you came to post that to give us all a sense of enlightenment. Will read again!
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:49 PM #13
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Ayn Rand is a **** bag
Lol. Perhaps Michael Moore is a bit more suited to your views? I just don't understand how we can agree so much on social issues, yet when it comes to entitlements, you seem to have no problem with a bunch of degenerates practically snorting away our hard earned money. The concepts of natural selection don't only apply biological organisms. They apply to our modern society as well.


Anyway, many people mistakenly claim Christianity is liberal in regards to welfare when in fact it isn't. Forcing people to give up money via taxes completely negates the good deed of providing to the poor. Donate to charities and the poor on your own accord. That's exactly what makes the act sacred. You did it by yourself and out of your own free will. The taxpayer shouldn't be forced to provide support for the weak who couldn't survive even if they had all the money in the world. Maybe they should have paid attention in high school instead of drinking alcohol and ****ing around.

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Old 08-16-2012, 08:35 PM #14
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Lol. Perhaps Michael Moore is a bit more suited to your views? I just don't understand how we can agree so much on social issues, yet when it comes to entitlements, you seem to have no problem with a bunch of degenerates practically snorting away our hard earned money. The concepts of natural selection don't only apply biological organisms. They apply to our modern society as well.


Anyway, many people mistakenly claim Christianity is liberal in regards to welfare when in fact it isn't. Forcing people to give up money via taxes completely negates the good deed of providing to the poor. Donate to charities and the poor on your own accord. That's exactly what makes the act sacred. You did it by yourself and out of your own free will. The taxpayer shouldn't be forced to provide support for the weak who couldn't survive even if they had all the money in the world. Maybe they should have paid attention in high school instead of drinking alcohol and ****ing around.
I don't know what you're attempting because your counter argument basically proved his point.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:38 PM #15
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I don't know what you're attempting because your counter argument basically proved his point.
Lol. "Ayn Rand is a ****bag" is not a point. It's a troll comment by someone who doesn't really know much about capitalism.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:50 PM #16
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A point is synonymous with an argument. His argument is Ayn Rand is a ****bag, thus, Ayn Rand is a ****bag is his point. I've argued semantics with enough morons to understand there is nothing new here.
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Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
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yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:06 PM #17
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A point is synonymous with an argument. His argument is Ayn Rand is a ****bag, thus, Ayn Rand is a ****bag is his point. I've argued semantics with enough morons to understand there is nothing new here.
So, Rand is a ****bag because she advocated a free market and economic Darwinism? Doesn't make very much sense to me.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:16 PM #18
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That's because you're a moron.
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Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
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yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:20 PM #19
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That's because you're a moron.
Sick burn. I'm sure you're mad because you collect unemployment and the big bad capitalists called you a weakling.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:25 PM #20
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When Christians make negative blanket generalizations about the poor, doesn't that kind of make them not Christian?
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:33 PM #21
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When Christians make negative blanket generalizations about the poor, doesn't that kind of make them not Christian?
Lol, what's your point? Christians aren't robot drones that are completely sinless in every aspect of their lives. When's the last time you've ever seen a "perfect" Christian that never drank, smoked, had pre-marital sex, used curse words, went to chruch every single sunday and never even had a jealous thought in their life? All Christians sin. You know, that's what praying and confessions are for. Let's be real. It's not like I'm even that religious either.

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