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Old 07-14-2012, 02:38 PM #1
HogbackHuskie
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Big Game flanking: Yea or Nay?

Over at Hogback Mountain in VA, Big Games are easily the most fun a woodsballer can find. This past Normandy Invasion game was great, but I was curious what everyone thought about flanking in a Big Game. Was it okay for me and my small group of friends to sneak behind enemy lines in order to launch a counter attack against the Allied forces? Apparently, the refs seemed to think it wasn't, and so we were told to go to the respawn zone for playing out of bounds while we were still inside of the tape and playing according to the rules... What does everyone think about this? Big Game flanking: Yea or Nay?
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:15 PM #2
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I don't get it either. You should be able to play anywhere on the designated field. Still, it is not uncommon for players to go out of bounds and re enter the field illegally. So your situation just may be a funky reffing call based on assumption and not fact. Has happened to me many times over the years. My all time favorite was my retreating in my walking tank with two RPG players firing and reloading and chasing my walking tank. I was waddling as fast as I could go screaming for some infantry support to stop those RPG players. The ref SAID I was exceeding the 5 mph speed and had to stop. I was 60 years old and the tank was a 70 pound backpack that I was running with in excess of 5 MPH... In my dreams........

So you have to make the best of it. I now claim to hold the world land speed record in walking tanks. So there!
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:39 PM #3
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If you stayed in bounds, not violating any of the rules, then I dont see the problem. I would have had to asked for clarification on exactly what it was I did wrong. Now I dont argue with ref's, but I will ask for clarification. I need to know what I did so I dont do it again.

But generally in a non speedball game, if you aint flanking, you aint trying.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:06 PM #4
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I would've asked the referees to show me where I was playing from out of bounds. If I, or my team, were playing in bounds and within the published rules for the field, I would've taken my concerns to the field owner before respawning. I would'nt have let it ruin my day or time, but if the refs are trying to control the outcome of a game by calling bogus penalties, the person who is paying them at the end of the day should know and care about it.

Flanking is all we ever try to do. You are attacking an enemy at their weak points. Who doesn't want to do that? I'll tell you who. The guys who were just flanked and covered in paint.
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Old 07-31-2012, 07:50 PM #5
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Not flanking is just dumb, you'll end up wasting a bunch of paint and not having any fun if you just run head-on at the enemy team. Personally, I think that ref is pretty scummy for doing that to you guys. I mean, if you are restricted to just fighting head-on, you might as well use a slingshot.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:02 PM #6
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I am ok with flanking. I just played in a Normady scenerio's, we only had one time where we could not cross a line that was inbounds during the game. It was for the first hour. We had to keep the allies on the beach. If they broke through, we could all go anywhere. But, we held them for the required hour and an extra 15 min.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:59 AM #7
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flanking

Before I ever started a game, my first task was to walk the field
so I could determine what was and wasn't in bounds. If there
was a question, I made sure it was resolved before game on and
if the event called for night play, I also made it a point to scout
the field when it was dark, even if that meant getting there the
night before. I also took my senior unit leaders for the same
tour, just so they knew the field as well as any improvements
which the owner or game director might have added sine our
last visit.

Flanking is fine, but sometimes the field itself limits how far you
can go before running into a boundry. When that happens you
better have a backup plan or it's going to turn into a race to see
which side makes the best use of the available cover and their
firepower. BTW, besides for 'flanking,' there are any number of
other equally effective tactical options, such as implementing a
'delay' or 'faint.'


Sincerely,
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:23 PM #8
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Hogback did the same thing to a group of my teammates at the 2013 Normandy game. Exactly as you described it. Because they out-flanked the enemy while still on the field of play. I wont play there anymore because of things such as you mentioned happened far too often. $60 GI 1-star, and poor reffing. Great field though.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:21 AM #9
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Boundries

The reason fields limit yoyur ability to flank, especally
when there's room to do so is simple, they want to see
you use more paint. In the real world, which I grant
you isn't the world of paintball, there's hardly ever any
such thing as a limit on the territory you're fighting on.
Sure, you might have a river or other physical obstacle,
but these days that rarely stops the military from going
where they please. In the wold of paintball there are
all sorts of rules and restrictions to contend with, so it
pays to know what the rules are ahead of time. It's
also helpful, dare I say critical, to also understand how
to take maximum advantage of those rules. The team
that continues to avoid using tactics such as flanking
their opponents is in for a lot of out time in the dead
zone.


Sincerely,
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Old 05-06-2015, 02:58 PM #10
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Dorsai is right. Alot of the time the field owner and refs will temporarily restrict areas that are normally in bounds for the sake of ensuring that the game lasts through the alotted time. Let's face the truth here, it's all about the $$$. No-one is happy when a game that was alotted for 3 hrs is over in 30 minutes simply because 10 guys utilized a weak spot and steamrolled the opponents. Take D-Day 2014 for example, the 82nd and 101st were supposed to hike around and attack Utah beach from behind. After the refs realized that the game would most likely be over in 20 minutes if that happed, our areas that we could flank from were severely restricted. We weren't happy, but we realized that playing the full 2 hrs was more fun in the end and Valken took home the paycheck from the extra paint sales....
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:57 PM #11
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I will admit right from the start that I have not played in a big or scenario game, so discount my opinion if XP is all that matters. But I see no point in stopping flanking in large games. If the field is marked you should be able to use anything within the field. If you have issues with players sneaking in and out of bounds just put some watch men (Refs probably) to keep an eye out. I think it adds considerably more to the fun of the game because it makes you use your head. If your playing a game like CTF then the whole field should be open to player ingenuity, if its a scenario (Like recreating D-Day) then shouldn't the managers that be map out the plan to according participants? Just my say on the matter.
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:04 PM #12
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tactics

Sgt. Ursa,

Thanks so much, both for your service as well as for taking time to post your thoughts
on this topic.

Years ago, when I first began creating my own scenarios they were all designed for around
the use of smaller, 50-100 acre fields. I also ran 3 using military MOUT (16 structure) sites,
in VA and in FL. In all these cases I was was forced into concocting ways keep two to as
many as five groups of players, numbering upwards of several hundred busy for 24 hours.

Since I don't know your MOS or how long you've been in the Army, I'm still pretty sure you've
had plenty of experiences running training lanes and clearing MOUT sites, so imagine trying to
stretch a FTX which typically lasts a few hours at most for 24. No easy task for sure, but it can
be accomplished if you craft a 'script,' with enough sub plots that only come into play if 'X' occurs,
or others that translate into new sets of orders for units if 'Y' takes place.

Now compare that sort of small scale event, constrained as it is for PB players o one where
soldiers go to train at NTC or to the east and west live ranges in Yakama, WA. Oklahoma
D-Day is a NTC sort of place in PB terms. With close to 700 acres (some say it's more like
1,000 since there are no fences, just pastures and woods) you're options on what you can
plan for also increase, but as with pretty much everything else that seems good at the outset,
there are also other factors which limit what you can accomplish. Unlike the military, PB fields
and 2,000 member teams don't typically have the means to move all those players from one
position to another, not without an exponential increase in cases of heat stroke and fatigue.
D-Day also stands out in another way and that has to do with the fact that until
just these past couple of years both sides commands knew months in advance exactly which
objectives needed to be held or taken and by what time this needed to take place, if they wanted
to earn the points involved with that aspect of the overall mission. If the 4th ID for example
didn't secure both a pair of shore batteries, the trench lines and reserve areas associated with
the Utah Beach part of the field, then those points go to the Germans. The same applies to all
the other key objectives which are also in play during this event.

So how do both sides deal with this massive, as well as evolving problem? They do it by first
appointing leaders who fill the slots from SAC to Division Commander, Company CO down to the
squad leader level. They also do it
by organizing and operating a TOC (Tactical Operations Center), which monitors then redirects
the movements of units events in real time. They do it by utilizing a multi-level communications system, complete with tan ability to also monitor their opponent's own radio traffic. They may
even achieve their goal by bringing in aerial recon assets, which allow them to keep track of even
small enemy unit movements. If all this is starting to sound anything like a FTX at JRTC, then
I've succeeded in giving you and everyone else who hasn't had an opportunity to take part in
D-Day a good sense of what occurs there.
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Last edited by dorsai : 06-01-2016 at 09:06 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM #13
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Yeah
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