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Old 07-23-2012, 07:23 AM #22
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Proper debate? I suppose you don't know what a proper debate is because for all intents and purposes my method is just fine.

I noticed some comments sticking out at me from those quotes about how Islam forbids violence, but didn't your religion pretty much begin to truly grow after Mohammad marched into Mecca at the head of 10,000 warriors and slaughtered everyone?

What about Israel? Why can't Muslims share the holy spots like the Israeli government is? You burn flags, riot, and scream you want to push Israel into the sea.

Then of course we have this: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02...di-journalist/
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:15 PM #23
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1) Muhammad's conquest of Mecca was bloodless, and he let everyone in the city live, even if they didn't convert to Islam. Even his sworn enemy who was trying to kill him for so many years, Abu Sufyan, was allowed to live and grew to be a strong ally of Muhammad. 10 people were ordered killed for prior murder and war charges, but all of them were pardoned.

2) Muslims have been allowing open pilgrimage to Jerusalem for 1500 years while it was under our control. Muslims, Christians, and Jews were absolutely free to come and go. Just look at history. Jerusalem was the pinnacle of Muslim tolerance and acceptance of the 3 Abrahamic faiths. The only times in the past 1500 years where Jerusalem was not open to pilgrimage was when the Christian armies took it during the Crusades and expelled all the Jews. The Israeli government does not want to "share" holy spots. They continue on settling in East Jerusalem to push the Palestinians out and claim it as there "undivided capital" when it is most definitely not there capital at all. The whole creation of the state of Israel is illegal in every way, and I suggest you read some quotes by David Bon Guiron (first Israeli prime minister) if you want to see the true mindset of the Zionists.

"But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs. "

"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."

"Regarding the Galilee, Mr. [Moshe] Sharett already told you that about 100,000 Arabs still now live in the pocket of Galilee. Let us assume that a war breaks out. Then we will be able to cleanse the entire area of Central Galilee, including all its refugees, in one stroke. In this context let me mention some mediators who offered to give us the Galilee without war. What they meant was the populated Galilee. They didn’t offer us the empty Galilee, which we could have only by means of a war. Therefore if a war is extended to cover the whole of Palestine, our greatest gain will be the Galilee. It is because without any special military effort which might imperil other fronts, only by using the troops already assigned for the task, we could accomplish our aim of cleansing the Galilee."

I've barely scratched the surface. Please stop talking of Israel like they're victimless. They've done so much more damage and crimes than Palestinian people, and that's why the entire Arab and Muslim world is against them and will forever be against them.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:33 PM #24
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I ask again, what is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:08 PM #25
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1) There is no punishment for apostasy in the Qur'an, with many many many quotes talk about how there is no compulsion in religion, and free will.

2) Citing Hadith, many Muslim scholars believe the MAXIMUM penalty for apostasy is death. The problem arises because when Muhammad gave this order, the people who were converting from Islam back to paganism would leave the Muslim community and join the Meccan's in their persecution and war against them. Since this equates to TREASON, the death penalty was ordered. Btw, we have capital punishment for treason here in the good ol' US of A.

There are many stories of people who changed their faith from Islam to something else where Muhammad pardoned and let live.

Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to Muhammad for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to Muhammad "cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Muhammad said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good."

According to Muslim Islamic scholar Cyril Glassť, death for apostasy was "not in practice enforced" in later times in the Muslim world, and was "completely abolished" by "a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260AH/1844AD."[67]
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:17 PM #26
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Guess thats the cost of living in a society in the 21st century instead of one rooted and trying to get back to the 7th century. My friend of Egyptian nationality is very worried that his country will become another theocracy run by hard line muslim brotherhood memebrs and salafists. My Armenian Uncle tells stories about how a great majority of his family was slaughtered by the Ottoman Turks. Simply because they were christians. The great majority of civilian deaths in Iraq were due to sectarian violence Shia killing Sunni and vice versa. Christians sects may not get along in America but the don't go around blowing up each others churches. By the way Abstract to the Taliban in Afganistan and the Wahabbist's in Saudi Arabia you'd most likely be considered an apostate. Now what is the punishment for apostaes in Islam? Because it may not be in the quaran but its sentence is carried out in Iran.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:19 PM #27
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:22 PM #28
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Originally Posted by The Abstract View Post
1) There is no punishment for apostasy in the Qur'an, with many many many quotes talk about how there is no compulsion in religion, and free will.

2) Citing Hadith, many Muslim scholars believe the MAXIMUM penalty for apostasy is death. The problem arises because when Muhammad gave this order, the people who were converting from Islam back to paganism would leave the Muslim community and join the Meccan's in their persecution and war against them. Since this equates to TREASON, the death penalty was ordered. Btw, we have capital punishment for treason here in the good ol' US of A.

There are many stories of people who changed their faith from Islam to something else where Muhammad pardoned and let live.

Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to Muhammad for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to Muhammad "cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But Muhammad refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Muhammad said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good."

According to Muslim Islamic scholar Cyril Glassť, death for apostasy was "not in practice enforced" in later times in the Muslim world, and was "completely abolished" by "a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260AH/1844AD."[67]
Stop lying, I know the answer, I am asking to see if you are willing to admit to the less palatable parts of your religion.

What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:24 PM #29
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Incredible how you KNOW the answer that's been a point of discussion between top Muslim scholars for 1500 years. I just told you the answer, and if you don't want to admit that Islam is an honorable religion because it doesn't fit your misguided, bigoted and brainwashed world view, that's your choice.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:35 PM #30
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Incredible how you KNOW the answer that's been a point of discussion between top Muslim scholars for 1500 years. I just told you the answer, and if you don't want to admit that Islam is an honorable religion because it doesn't fit your misguided, bigoted and brainwashed world view, that's your choice.
So, what about Hamza Kashgari, want to go to up to him as he faces death and tell him that it's all a dream and after 1500 years and several thousands causalities it is still under discussion?
Maybe these Muslim scholars need to rein in the theocrats. You are judged by those you associate yourself with and there doesn't seem to be a very large movement to oust those crazy zealots.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:45 PM #31
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LOL... i agree with both of you and neither of you...

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Old 07-24-2012, 07:00 PM #32
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Originally Posted by SupraSuper View Post
Incredible how you KNOW the answer that's been a point of discussion between top Muslim scholars for 1500 years. I just told you the answer, and if you don't want to admit that Islam is an honorable religion because it doesn't fit your misguided, bigoted and brainwashed world view, that's your choice.
Didn't you used to smoke weed? I'm no expert on Islamic law but I'm pretty sure it forbids all intoxicants.

I know it's OT, but still.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:54 AM #33
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1.57 billion muslims in the world.
some say only 7-15% are what we call "radical"
so at best there are only 110 million muslims in the world that would gladly spill the blood of every American or any other "infidel" in the world tomorrow.
hmmm.... sounds peaceful to me!
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Old 07-25-2012, 01:12 AM #34
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1.57 billion muslims in the world.
some say only 7-15% are what we call "radical"
so at best there are only 110 million muslims in the world that would gladly spill the blood of every American or any other "infidel" in the world tomorrow.
hmmm.... sounds peaceful to me!
And that is the very best case scenario. That 110 million could be more than doubled if you trust the 15% number that most polls throw out there. And how many "closet radicals" are there? The ones that don't admit that they want America to burn? The "smart" ones that go undetected and strike unexpectedly every year? Hell, how many muslims out there wouldn't commit acts of terrorism, but would gladly support it?
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Old 07-25-2012, 01:25 AM #35
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Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things; but if you want good people to do bad things, you'll need religion.
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:01 PM #36
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As much as I hate on organized religion yall should leave the Ramadan thread alone. At least they are fasting, more dedicated than most religious people I know. Show up to church once on Sunday and the rest of the week is secular, judgemental and ignorant of their own sin.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:17 PM #37
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As much as I hate on organized religion yall should leave the Ramadan thread alone. At least they are fasting, more dedicated than most religious people I know. Show up to church once on Sunday and the rest of the week is secular, judgemental and ignorant of their own sin.
Kind of like Lent for Catholicism?

eninn brought up the subject of Ramadan for discussion, so we are going to discuss it.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:49 AM #38
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Absolutely stunning Surah. Such an amazing recitation mashaallah.

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Kind of like Lent for Catholicism?

eninn brought up the subject of Ramadan for discussion, so we are going to discuss it.
You haven't made a single post regarding Ramadan.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:01 AM #39
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allah says in the Quran
93. And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allah, or says: "I have received
inspiration, "whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says," I will reveal the like of what Allah has revealed. "And if you could but see when the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.) Are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying):" Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allah other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) With disrespect! "
94. And truly you have come unto Us alone (without wealth, companions or anything else) as We created you the first time. You have left behind you all that which We had bestowed on you. We see not with you your intercessors whom you claimed to be partners with Allah. Now all relations between you and them have been cut off, and all that you used to claim has vanished from you.
95. Verily! It is Allah Who causes the seed-grain and the fruit-stone (like date-stone, etc.) To split and sprout. He brings forth the living from the dead, and it is He Who brings forth the dead from the living. Such is Allah, then how are you deluded away from the truth?
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:31 PM #40
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[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDeuf55_uDM[video]

Absolutely stunning Surah. Such an amazing recitation mashaallah.



You haven't made a single post regarding Ramadan.
Can you please address my question.


It's rumored that even the 9/11 hijackers would often go to American strip clubs and get drunk there, so tell me: Where are the devout followers?
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:48 PM #41
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eninn brought up the subject of Ramadan for discussion, so we are going to discuss it.
But you're really not, you're on some butt-hurt atheist tirade. Nothing you've posted is really relevant to Ramadan.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:07 PM #42
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Can you please address my question.


It's rumored that even the 9/11 hijackers would often go to American strip clubs and get drunk there, so tell me: Where are the devout followers?
What an idiotic question



One of my favorite Surah's. The change of tone starting at 6:45 is heart wrenching.
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