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Old 06-29-2012, 05:54 PM #22
spracks21
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Originally Posted by Vit Beeyer View Post
hey brah I'm high also. I couldn't have conversations on here if I wasn't. I asked that question to be a jackass more than anything

I just wanted to see everyone say in an intellectual manner that the world revolves around them.
You maniacally manipulative son of a *****!
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:35 AM #23
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Well, I'm stating that as a whole, there is no value for human life. The value we adhere to our fellow men and women is derived from the values we give ourselves. We are hardwired to survive; we have a fear of death - or, at least, premature death.

Personally, I enjoy the possibilities of the limited time frame I've given. I enjoy experiencing happiness. I enjoy playing games, listening to music, learning, sex, and many other things. The whole reason we have any value whatsoever is due to the fact that we have limited amount of time to do so. Death is the very core of our value for life and from that core value stems out multiple interpretations as to what is valued in life and what isn't, almost all of which coming from personal experiences and knowledge (which can be utilized with empathy to care for others that have been in situations we have yet to personally experience).

Don't know if I'm actually getting anywhere for you. Haha.
So, you value life because of the inevitable end of life. Other human life is valuable to you because you recognize that, like yourself, you will all die one day and you share an equal drive for survival?
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:47 AM #24
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Originally Posted by spracks21 View Post
For me personally, I assign and see value in other people because I can identify with them. We are all humans, and more or less, go through very similar experiences while alive. We also all "just got here." And before we each "got here," there were already all these crazy games going on in the world, which we have had to adapt to. There isn't a manual to live life the "right way" because there really isn't one "right way," which goes with the discussion of this thread.

Taking out the god thing, there isn't really an objective value to anything, as value is a concept that people assign to other people/things.

I assign value to other people, as a part of my desire to be understood my self, and to connect with others. So, obviously my friends and family whom I most identify with, or who best understand and car about me, will have more subjective value, than a bum on the street.

But because I know of hardship, suffering, joy, fear, and loneliness, I can relate and identify with mt fellow man, even if I don't know anything else about the person. I know they feel and think about essentially the same things as I do. And this eases my human loneliness.

And I think loneliness, as we are social animals, plays a large role in why religion is so common amongst our species. What better way to eradicate loneliness than having an all caring, all knowing, all assuring entity that can share your thoughts and reality with you? I can spend my whole life getting to know one person, but never fully see things the exact way they do. A belief in a god can fill that role. Taking away the mythology if it all, this is a pretty pleasant idea.

More to the point of this thread, I'll again say that value of humans can be derived from out mutual understandings and sentiments. We can start by knowing that we are all much the same, and share the same basic wants and needs. Everyone is largely the main character in their lives. Everyone's life matters, and is valuable to themselves.

We could also say that most people have value to those who car about them, and have a vested interest in their lives, or simply they are people who others would prefer continued to be a part of their lives. My friend is valuable to me, because that friend enhances the quality of my life. A person has "value" to a society, when they become a key part of the well-being of that society.

None of this is to say that one person has more value than any other person, as like mentioned already, value is subjective based on who is trying to determine it.

/typing out loud.

EDIT: And pertaining to non human life having value, I feel like the same words above still mostly apply. We are alive, and know what that means. Life that is not self-aware still shares many feelings/perceptions, and independently operate within our universe with us. We've all gone from inanimate matter, to life. In terms of being the senses of the universe, I see great value there as well.
So when it comes to others you dont know, its an empathy thing? Those you know being based on weight and measure of the person?

To stir the pot a little:

As for objective value of human life, I think you can somewhat objectively assign more value to one over another depending on your scope.

Just looking purely at human society, Beethoven or Jefferson are objectively more valuable than say a landscaper or a steel worker. All examples have their roles to play but the formers legacy and contribution outweigh the latter tenfold. Something to think about.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:49 AM #25
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Originally Posted by Gisgo09 View Post
Putting it that way, I value some human life. I don't feel like everyone deserves to live. Mass murderers, psychopaths etc don't have any value to me.
As well they shouldn't unless they put those vices to.use. more often than not, they blow those impulses and mental deficiency on complete deviancy. Damned shame.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:51 AM #26
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Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
I would guess that most of our value of life would be based upon ego.

ALL human life ? Probably potential would be the qualification.
What happens if nothing comes of potential? Do they remain valuable until death due to there theoretically being time to do something useful?
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:59 AM #27
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I don't think value of a person can be quantified, exactly. To a soccer mom, her van might be seen as more valuable than her husband's sports car. But to the husband, that car may represent the bond between him and his father, who restored it. But if the time came to sell one or the other, a discussion subjective to the needs and goals of the family would have to decipher which is the greater value, for the family. Sentimental vs practical. Neither is always more valuable. It depends on what the assigned value is being used or accrued for, or what the need is for that value....I'm high though, so forgive me if some of these thoughts are off the mark, sappy, idealistic, or just incoherent. mah bad.
Practical always always always trumps the sentimental. In the same way that results outweigh feelings. This being said, the two terms are not exactly mutually exclusive. The expression of a sentiment may have practical value.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:26 PM #28
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Quintuple post!

Re: post 27 - humans are feeling-driven machines; in fact, when we cease to heed our feelings we develop what are commonly known as mental illnesses - depression, anxiety, etc.

If practicality is what you value then it will drive your emotions - but that doesn't give special objective validity to "practicality" trumping the sentimental. The only reason you say these things is because you personally value results and practicality - but this, like everything else in this thread, is completely subjective.
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:05 PM #29
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I don't believe we posses the means to be objective. But I do think we can catch glimpses of it. I think that removing how you feel about an action and a result is at least one tiny step towards objectivity. Bias re enters the equation once we decide what to do with the results and with it, subjectivity. What a *****.

Im not entirely convinced that asceticism is a cause of depression and illness. Then again that isn't what I was advocating for either.
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:15 PM #30
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
I don't believe we posses the means to be objective. But I do think we can catch glimpses of it. I think that removing how you feel about an action and a result is at least one tiny step towards objectivity. Bias re enters the equation once we decide what to do with the results and with it, subjectivity. What a *****.

Im not entirely convinced that asceticism is a cause of depression and illness. Then again that isn't what I was advocating for either.
1.) I don't think we are capable of being objective either

2.) I don't believe it is possible to remove completely how you feel about an action - the only thing you can do is acknowledge how you feel about it and try to understand how that influences your perception

3.) Asceticism - "Asceticism (from the Greek: ἄσκησις, áskēsis, "exercise" or "training") describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from various worldly pleasures, often with the aim of pursuing religious and spiritual goals. Many religious traditions (e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, the Christian desert fathers) include practices that involve restraint with respect to actions of body, speech, and mind."

Wikipedia, deal with it. But notice how they make no mention of ignoring or neglecting how you feel. That is simply not possible. I'm curious what your perception of asceticism is, because the way I read this it's acceptance of the world and yourself as is (feelings included) and restraining your actions. In my mind asceticism is a choice of how to respond to your feelings. I don't interpret it in any way to mean restraining your feelings themselves.

In my opinion it would be a sad world indeed if a monk were not allowed to cry.
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Last edited by Umami : 07-02-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:35 PM #31
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Yes that is the big thing. Like I said in the past. You need to align your emotions properly. The goal of removing feelings from the equation is that you have a clearer perception than you did filtering the event and result through your feelings.

I don't know whether it is or not. I think that it requires great deal of discipline. I can say that working towards the goal changes the way you view life. Anyway. I think the best thing to do is to view all the data and then develop a sentiment.

My understanding just comes from reading the texts and the work of others. The idea isn't to block emotion but to liberate you from it. More specifically the liberation from the duality of good and bad. The ability to act as is required and often necessary without emotional investment in the methods or the outcomes. Towards the Superman as it is said.
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