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Old 04-22-2012, 10:11 AM #1
Boom Master
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How much field time should a tank have?

Back in the good old days, anti tank weapons were like cops: You could never find one when you needed it. Now days, to hear the tankers talk, anti tank weapons are like mosquitoes: You can swat and swat and swat, but there is always another one to bite you... The Sport Evolves. This is just another growing pain.

The only concensus is that the tanker do have a legitimate complaint at some games. How much field time should the average tank have for them to have fun? That is the basic question. Of course, they ARE tanks and want to be invincible. Well, you can't have that but you deserve a fair amount of field time to play.

MANY solutions to this problem have been suggested and tried with varying degrees of success and player / tanker acceptance.

To list a few.

Lowering the velocity of the Nerfs so that RPGs players are within range of supporting infantry.

Designating a proportion of the RPGs as anti tank ONLY and others Demo Only. Player role cards and ID tape on the RPG/armbands.

Marking targets on the tanks to make it harder to kill a tank. Requires a more accurate shot.

Limiting the number of Nerfs a RPG player can carry.

Limiting the ratio of RPGs to opposing tanks.

Limiting the number of RPGs on each side.

Requiring two of more Nerf hits to kill a tank.

They have been cussed and discussed throughly on this forum.

It occurred to me that all of them are SET in STONE at the beginning of the game. No flexibility.

The survivability of a given tank varies a LOT. The capabilities and skill of the RPG players vary a LOT. A field owner and producer has a great deal of guesswork about the tanks and RPG players arriving at a game to set any parameters for the game.

So it is very easy to have an imbalance at a given game with any of the above approaches.

So lets consider another approach. Put in some flexibilty for the Producer to adjust the balance of power between tankers and anti tankers without changing the rules in the middle of a game which is a sacred No No.

In a couple of hours of play, you can tell the survivability of the tank by how many times they are killed. The question is How much field time should a tank have?

How many hours out of 8 hours should a tank be on the field to have fun?

The next question is how the Producer can change the balance of power with RPGs and tanks DURING the game.

That is a really hard question. FEW answers come to mind. So HELP me.

If you have Demo and Anti tank cards, you can ADD cards easily. The Producer can issue an anti tank card to a demo player giving them dual capabilites. It could be time limited or not. It would be HARDER to take a anti tank card away and replace it with a demo card only. But it pissed off only ONE RPG player who still gets to use it as a demo RPG.

If you limit Nerf ammo to RPGs you can ADD Nerfs by an ammo drop/delivery that is issued by the General. You can't take Nerfs away BUT if you start with ONE Nerf for each RPG and resupply from the general only, you can control how many Nerfs are availabie for each side fairly well.

You could have missions that retrieve props or technology that increases the number of Nerf rounds it takes to kill a tank. Where, how often, how easy it is to find that prop is under the control of the Producer. They could be time limited or not..

Other ideas?

Every one share their opinion of how much field time out of 8 hours should a tank have. That should be interesting. ID yourself as a grunt, anti tanker, tank player.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:28 AM #2
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After throught. How about awarding POINTS for RPG player Kills and/or tank kills. Put a bounty on RPG players... Killing a tank and then immediately dying is a WASH on the points.....

That would change the way the anti tankers play considerably... Much less aggressively. They would stay protected by their infantry. Take longer shots. Etc.
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Old 04-22-2012, 12:52 PM #3
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One of the field I played actually gave point for Tank Kills and Point for returned nerfs. So if the other team pickup your nerfs they would be ahead so you would limit the number of nerfs you shoot at them unless they were big enough of a threat. This also increased the recoverablity of your nerfs.
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Old 04-22-2012, 01:40 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Master View Post
After throught. How about awarding POINTS for RPG player Kills and/or tank kills. Put a bounty on RPG players... Killing a tank and then immediately dying is a WASH on the points.....

That would change the way the anti tankers play considerably... Much less aggressively. They would stay protected by their infantry. Take longer shots. Etc.
You're assuming the average player is that concerned with points to not go all out for a tank kill but not only that a tank is worth about 10 foot players on a power scale while 1 LAW player is worth just that so they'll justify a tank kill with or with out the point.

LAW's and SMAW's are a reality in the real world, the best option is to have the tank ref carry flags, for each hit they flag the tank. A tank can be given more or less flags based on it's size and fire power.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:40 AM #5
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Maybe, maybe not. We'd have to try it. Depends on how many points they are worth too.
Quote:
A tank can be given more or less flags based on it's size and fire power.
That is a good idea. It would be confusing for the RPG players to know how many MORE hits it takes to kill a tank though. We could start with the flags ON the tank and take each one down with each hit. Then everyone would know how many hits it will take to finish off that tank. I still LIKE that idea.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:54 PM #6
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Basically a "hit point" system. Been playing World Of Tanks a bit, and in the interest of making the game playable, they use "hit points", along with a lot of other game mechanics, but the concept being that more modern tanks within a given weight range generally have more hit points, and bigger/heavier tanks also have more hit points than similar era lighter tanks.

Point being that a 100 ton Maus is pretty much invulnerable to light tanks and most mediums, roughly analogous to being invulnerable to the LAW/RPG players for early tech, and neigh invulnerable to somewhat more contemporary non-crew-serve AT assets. Yeah, plink at them all day, and you will wear them down.

Though the concept is appealing, the enforcement could be challenging. An option would be some sort of electronic counter that tracks hits on a target, but that raises all sorts of issues. Can be done, but WILL it be done???? Maybe. Maybe not, more like probably not. So, back to the question of how to reasonably enforce the concept, while not creating a huge manpower overhead, and at the same time, keep it readily identifiable to both OPFOR and Allied elements of the status. Would not be desirable to use DDay methods modified to place the tank back in play right away, as it is pretty untenable for either the tank or the AT guys, pretty much becomes a "quick draw" challenge then, and requires too much ref effort as well.

I suppose suitable procedures can be developed for DDay base rules, though I kinda liked the concept I read somewhere, Boom Master I think, where there were 4 balloons placed on top of the PUG and all four had to be popped. So, maybe there are 1, 2, or 3 targets on each side of hull and turret, and all 1, 2, or 3 on either the hull or turret have to be hit. Or some combination.... geeze this is getting complicated already. Back to the electronic counter again...
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Old 05-20-2012, 05:55 AM #7
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If this was the military they'd tell you their MILEs based system of scoring
kills on armor works, but this isn't DOD and I don't see anyone spending
any money on development of a civilian alternative. Well in fact there's
a firm I know of over in the UK who has developed a MILEs 'like' system,
which uses focused beams of infrared light as opposed to laser beams to
interact with various targets, including vehicles. Trouble is it's still pretty
much out of the reach of most folks.

DOD's MILEs system works on the principle that the beam put out by the
emitters is set to a specific frequency. The receptor units mounted on the
vehicles receive that signal and based on the frequency it determines if it
came from a soldier's rifle, a roadside IED or a RPG. The system then
either triggers the beacon that tells everyone that the vehicle was killed
or not and at the same time it also alerts the personnel back in the control
center that that particular vehicle is now out of action. This eliminates all
the guess work.


Sincerely,


Sincerely,
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:35 AM #8
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Balloons? Not me but something simular. At White River the opposing team had no RPGs. Their tank was a no show due to tow vehicle mechanical problems. We had to improvise on short notice, a way for the other side to eliminate my tank with small arms fire.

Using Colored arm band duct tape we put 4 two inch squares on the side of the tank. The elimination rule was they had to mark 3 of the 4 for a kill. Even after the game briefing players were confused thinking they eliminated the tank when they hit ONE of the squares. Took a while for everyone to get on the same page as far as HOW to eliminate my tank. I had difficulty getting team mates and refs to keep me informed of how many hits I had and where so I could protect my unhit targets and KNOW when the third guy says he got my target that I was out of play and get the ref to confirm the kill if they are handy. It kept me from doing deep penetrations into enemy lines. It is EASY to put a paintball on a 2 inch square if you have 20 guys firing 8 balls a second at it. Basically I had to keep ONE side away from incoming fire at all times and protect the targets using cover when I can.

I spend some time pondering some sort of electronic based elimination system both for paintball eliminations and Nerf eliminations. Cheap and easy to make. All of them were based on a pressure plate with a micro switch behind it. The Nerf plates would be large targets and when hit would just set off a light and screamer notifying everyone inside and outside the tank that it was dead.

The spring pressure under the plate could be adjusted, in theory, so paintball hits would not activate it but Nerfs would. That is based on the untested assumption that a Nerf hit has more energy than a paintball hit. Not sure that is the case or if the energy of the two is different enough that it would be possible to do. And longer Nerf shots would have less energy and may not register.

Then variations on a theme. Nerf hits could activate a counter and when it got to what ever number it was set at, it would set the lights and screamer off. A box could be mounted on the top of a tank with a switch on each side for small arms eliminations with the counter concepts.

The electronics is a connect a dot solsering project on a prototype circuit board from Radio Shack. Schematics widely available. 9 volt Battery operation.

That requires no reffing staff to administer the elimination rules.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:21 PM #9
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I've worn the Miles equipment during training exercises on more than one occasion... pretty effective, though of course, it can be "gamed", but still, a very good training aid as I recall. 'Course, that was back when the M16-A2 was the standard issue, not up to speed on todays versions. For arty and mortar fire simulation we used pyro and a few designated NCOs with "God Guns" that would blast everyone they perceived as toast near the impact area. Paintball was just emerging, and hideously expensive compared to today, and our unit didn't have the funds to use those TAs.

Boom, I am inclined to go with the electronic counter/trip and sprung targets. Given the felt recoil on a Nerf cannon, I suspect that a nerf, even at something around 150 fps or so would still have more energy...


Going to have to do a little research.
Ke is M x V^2 right?
A nerf is nominally 1 oz.
What's PB???

So how do you set up the target... Energy absorption would take the Ke over time, which would be a function of the Nerf elasticity, the velocity at impact, and the distance the target deflects, and must account for the mass of the target plate. Yeah, sure, I think it is an intriguing mathematical exercise, and I will probably eventually research it and put it into a suitable formula, just not at the top of my list at the moment.
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Old 05-20-2012, 09:02 PM #10
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Tank Time

As a tanker with many games under my belt now. I have come to the conclusion that a tanks time on the field varies every time you go on the field and re-insert. I have accepted the fact that we are not invincible and we could be on the field a minute or less or sometimes up to an hour or more. When my tank goes on the field I am prepared to be out there with ammo and air for a minute or longer. If I go on a certain part of the field and I know there are AT guys an or tanks there. I know that my time will be limited this time on the field unless I get extremely lucky. But being a experience player now tells me that if I get taken out. I will just go back and start over again and again if thats what it takes. Its called persistence and you just keep pounding at something until finally you break through. I have been in many games where I got taken out shortly into the game numerous times which has caused me and my crew alot of frustration and sometimes the feeling of what are we doing here. But if you want to play in a game that has these kinds of obstacles in front of you then you accept whats coming at you and know how to handle the situation. I personally dont think that a tanker should be given per say any set time to be on the field. I normally travel several hours to a game. I dont demand when I get there if I play in a 8 eight scenerio game that my tank is guaranteed so like 6 hours of it. I have been to games and even one recently where the game director said I couldnt go into a game until a set time a few hours into the game. And I could only be used at certain times in a game. But as a player you learn to deal whats thrown at you.

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Old 05-21-2012, 11:21 AM #11
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I am of the same thinking as Treaddz. It depends on the field, the game, number of players. But I dont see that tankers can be promissed any certain amount of time. I've done games where I got hit with in five minutes of incerting four or five times in a row. Very frustrating. But that was just the way it was. Our guys couldnt keep the AT guys off our entry point. They dont keep the AT off us, we cant do our job to help them.

We've tried all kinds of rules at my home field. Limited AT guys number of Nerfs. Classified heavy and light tanks. Heavies run kill plates that light AT players have to hit. It does make it harder to kill them. But now the AT guys have to venture into the AP gun range of the big tanks to hit them. Int he open field light AT leaves the big tanks to heavy AT and thier tanks. In the woods, the heavy tanks are still managable for light AT. So all in all they get to stay on the field longer.

Now of course some may not like our rules, but considering the guy that owns the property and allows us to play at a great field owns the biggest tank, no one seems to mind that much if we modify things to keep them on the field a little bit longer. It bennefits the tankers as we get to do more tank on tank instead of both sides getting creamed before we can get half way across the field to find one another.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:51 PM #12
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I like the idea of Tank v Tank action. I think that is probably the most exciting thing about tanking, short of rolling into the enemy assembly area by surprise and watching a hundred or so players scurry away like roaches when you turn on the light.
Get to feel pretty important for a minute or so, till one of two things happen, you finish your run and get out of Dodge before their AT assets can lay in, or, well, you leave Dodge with your dead flag up because their AT assets were on the ball. Either way, a pretty major thrill.

There is just something "special" about a tank duel, particularly one where both tanks have taken partial cover or hull down positions and it is really a multi shot duel, with infantry on either side rooting for their tank to get the kill, it is a lot like being in a high school football game with the home town crowd cheering for you, you have a strong sense of duty, and really get stoked up. My fondest PB memory is of such a duel. Great action on both teams, and the two apposing tanks facing each other down, and infantry on both sides pushing right up to the line, shooting each other, and trying to distract the other teams tank, while not getting lit up by the tanks anti personnel markers. The standoff lasted for about 1 or 2 minutes, seemed like it was a lot longer, but probably wasn't. three volleys back and forth with the sixth Nerf threading through a very narrow window ( crutch of a tree, maybe 16 inches or so wide 30 or so feet from our tank) to score a kill. Major enthusiastic celebration by our team at that point, with much wailing and gnashing of teeth by the other team... That brief moment was tactically important to our team, but not of huge strategic importance, but it WAS a moment that was quite memorable. It also represented a poster board example of how tankers can bring a great deal of excitement to the game. The contest was clearly between two PB tanks, and all players in that skirmish new without a doubt that the team who's tank won the exchange would take the objective at least until another tank could be brought up, or an AT team brought in.

These sort of encounters focus attention of the players, it focuses it in a way that highlights the importance of team play, as infantry on both sides do their best to protect their tank from those pesky LAW guys, and the Tankers, besides engaging the enemy tank, are also doing their best to protect THEIR infantry from enemy infantry. These efforts by team mates to cover each other foster a sense of camaraderie that enhances to overall feel of the game.

That is why I am of the opinion that the sport is well served by rule sets that encourage tank on tank battle, and the sport is poorly served by rule sets that treat tanks like the little ducks in the carnival shooting gallery.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:04 PM #13
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Thanks, that was a great story and I could picture the scene you
described unfolding in front of me, even though I wasn't there to
witness it.

One way to make things more interesting, at least when it comes
to how they play the game out in Oklahoma, would be to allow the
tankers to raise the velocity of their anti-tank weapons so that
they could engage one another at greater range than they can
using the same velocity as their AP weapons fire at.

We all know what happens when you try raising the velocity up
above 300 fps, but what most folks don't need to know is that if
you keep pushing it hgher, say up to around 385 FPS or so, you
find the pellets flight path stabilizes. They become darts and you
find you can hit targets at least half again as far away. Not sure
why you couldn't do the same thing with the AT weapons, which
would really put fear into most tankers who typically count on their
superior AP firepower to neutralize the AT gunners. Only issue
that stands in the way of course has to do with insurance regs.
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:43 PM #14
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I would like to see-

Limits on a/t weapons

Front hits by a/t weapons dont count against tanks(all tank on tank hits count)

At least a limited amount of "blow bunker cards" pr sortie/mission ect

and did i mention limit a/t weapons.




on another note i would LOVE too see MORE anti tank guns on the fields. by antitank gun i mean large wheeled anti tank guns.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:55 AM #15
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Yes BlackAngleSS, I have seen some of your YouTube videos of your PAK40. Nicely done. SgtJohn is just west of Mpls, so I hope that once I am up and running we can do a bit of skirmishing, he has a few very nice milsim replicas, including crew serve or two. One I believe is a PAK something, the other I believe is an American AT towed piece.

He's working on a fully tracked rig also, cannibalizing an old Dodge pickup if I recall correctly.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:26 PM #16
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You could not get much player/tanker acceptance of a set amount of field time. Not my suggestion really. Just trying to get a feel for some criteria a Producer can use to make sure that tankers aren't having fun because of too many RPGs, satchel charges, etc. And ways they can let all the RPGs play and still have a decent balance of power in the tank vs RPG department. Just way to balance the game without telling players they can use their RPGs.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:16 PM #17
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I don't mind limited tank time, to a point, as long as I know about it going in. I tanked a game where I was limited to a couple of hours of field time. That was unacceptable. To make matters worse, I didn't know that I was going to be that limited. I would have been content playing as a crunchy until the tank was released, but we never really knew when that would happen. I really hate sitting around at the CP, waiting for something to happen.

At another game, the tank was parked, unmanned at the 50, at game on. The first 5 or so missions were collecting tank parts to activate the tank. The tank crew had a blast running crunchy missions for the first few hours of the game.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:35 AM #18
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In some cases the tank is protecting you, but you shouldn't see it that way, its not what the tank can do for you, but what you can do for your tank.
In other words we must protect dis house!!!
Tanks should not be a juggernaut out there just rolling where ever they feel, at the same time, there are rules in place for safety reasons that limit tank functionality, understand the rules and protect your tanks better, its too easy just to get behind the tank and mow forward, you should have to think about it, identify targets and strategize
Did you take out all the rpgs? Did you miss one, are you sure its safe to push the tank forward?

On the flip side paint grenades should not be able to take out the tank.
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Old 06-30-2012, 07:11 PM #19
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The key is flexibility. The game needs to be balanced. We have played where one team is walking all over the other and it's not much fun for either side. Same with tanks. If they can't be killed everyone just runs away. Or if they go 10' and die......
A way to do this is Large, medium small tanks. Large tanks not frontal kills by LAWs and take two hits to kill. Med any hit but takes two. Small tanks one hit. Large tanks have a white stripe on their team color. Small tanks a white circle. If one side needs help you can up grade or down grade the tanks. A player will see what it takes and they might complain "boy that looks like a small tank but it has a stripe?" So The director can change a tank's status to make the game fair.
As far as limiting LAWs- all for it, but there needs to be something for the non-LAWs (call them grenade launchers(GL)). A GL can take out designated bunkers. That way everyone can play with their toys.
AT Guns- treated like Tank Guns. No reduced velocity, doesn't count against the LAW limit.
My 2 cents
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:42 PM #20
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We gave the at guys a set amt of rockets for each section of the game, one hit put tank made tank unable to move, second hit set tank back to spawn point for a set amt of time. Also, if star on side of tank was covered in paint, counted as a two rocket hit.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:00 PM #21
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We have been using nets as targets on the tanks at games here. It seems to work pretty well. Each tank is required to have a target net on each side and front and back. I am installing basketball rims as the targets for my tank. Hitting the nets is a challenge for the AT guys and gives the tank a little more time on the field. People have used fishing nets, but they tend to get blown out by the Nerfs. Here is a pic of the passenger side rim:



I made nets out of the fabric mostly used for laundry nets. I painted it black though since it comes white. I have not installed the nets in the pic yet.
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