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Old 09-20-2004, 10:30 PM #1
Xnuke
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Ariakon Electronic Triggers

PROBLEMS WITH ARIAKON ELECTRONIC TRIGGERS
We've had 4 Ariakon LED and LCD trigger frames with defects in last month. 3 from a single order. They do not function properly(recocking) and could not be adjusted to work properly even following the directions provided by Ariakon to "force" the solenoid plate back with screwdriver. They will not catch the sear causing rapid fire unless you hold the charging handle back. We tried 3 frames on 2 separate SIM-4's. They would not work but the markers worked fine with the standard trigger before and after trying the electronic.
Also it appears that the rapid firing causes the connecting pin to bend and has jammed the hammer in 2 SIM4's. One is on it's way back from Ariakon. The other one(pictured below) they have refused to take care of because the owner did not send it back. He returned it to us 3 hours after getting it back from Ariakon - where the recocking problem was supposedly repaired. That's when we found the following conditions:
Gun would not cock.
Hammer o-ring was half gone
No lubrication on hammer
Hammer is jammed in body and cutting grooves into metal( It cannot be removed from the body)
Solenoid coil set screws were loose.

This was after they repaired it. Shipping records indicate he received it at 315 and was on it's way back to us withing 3 hours. Yet they tried to say it was his fault and then tried to say it was something we did.
Our dealer relationship with Ariakon has been terminated over this issue. Our ability to post on the Ariakon forum has been removed also.
Recommendation would be not to buy the Ariakon Electronic Trigger frames. The other problem is the LCD frame does not have a tournament lock if that matters to anyone.
This is not an isolated case as there have been several others on the Ariakon forum posting about similar experiences.

Sorry to post again but the other thread was diluted with ravings and harassment of moderators and low level administrators from Ariakon.


These pictures show damage(scoring) caused by jammed hammer. This is the one that came back from Ariakon after repair of electronic trigger. Another customers SIM4 was sent back to Ariakon with the same damage after trying to install electronic trigger frame.
We also noticed bolt connecting pin and possibly spring guide are bent.
Even though the striker has loosened enough to cock, it cannot be removed to change striker o-ring.
We will not post any documents showing shipping info unless we could get neutral third party to review and post findings such as a moderator here. We will save the documents for credit card company or small claims court. We intend to take this as far as necessary.





Last edited by Xnuke : 09-20-2004 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:28 PM #2
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Re: Ariakon Electronic Triggers

Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke

Sorry to post again but the other thread was diluted with ravings and harassment of moderators and low level administrators from Ariakon.
Harassment...LOL pot...kettle...nice to meet you...

Xnuke, aside from the pictures being so blurry they are almost impossible to tell what I'm looking at, on the second picture are you showing scratches there on the lower right side of the lower receiver tube where the striker slides into?

I ask because if that is what you are showing, now I KNOW someone put those there and they are not caused by the striker. How, you ask? Simple...the SIM-4, like the blow back markers I've seen, have a rubber stop between the striker and the velocity cap. This stop is about 10-15mm thick. With the WS and SIM-5 (haven't seen a SIM-4 to say one way or another but from that first picture it looks like it is) the receiver is made in such a way that even if the rubber stop was missing the connecting pin would hit the receiver stopping the bolt and striker before they went all the way to the velocity cap. Those scratches you are showing go all the way back to the threads of the velocity cap. That means the ONLY way those scratches could get there would be either someone installing or removing the hammer. Looks to me like there is a possibility that the hammer was jammed and someone tried to pry it free.

The first picture seems to confirm this. After all, if something is sliding back and forth in a linear motion (as you suggest in your first post as what has happened here because of the electric triggers) the gouges will also be linear and in the same direction as the movement of the object creating them (again, look at the post I made with the link to the engine page...there are plenty of gouges in those example that perfectly illustrate this point) not curve like the gouges in both of these pictures. Also, since you can see this gouge very clearly through that opening it would stand to reason that this was also caused by someone trying to get the striker out of the marker.

Now, I am fairly certain that if someone at the manufacturer did this that the marker would have been replaced. After all, by sending it back they KNOW they are either going to see it again or something like this will happen.

The next piece of logic I offer up is this. If someone tried to removed the jammed hammer, how did it jam? You mention that it is because of the o-ring issue. Are you saying that the manufacturer jammed it, couldn't fix it, and then went "Oh, just send it back like that?" First, why wouldn't they try focing it out from the FRONT of the receiver where they are less likely to cause damage like that between two moving surfaces? The front of the striker is a far better place to 1. apply maximum force for removal and 2. least likely to cause any damage to the marker. Again, they must know that they will be seeing it again and/or will hear about it someway, especially if it is YOU they are dealing with. So, again, I highly doubt that was the case. If they received it that way, they should have (and am not saying this is their policy or that they did, indeed do this, but SHOULD have) either called and informed the customer of the issue or included a note explaining that they worked on the trigger but that the damage to the marker would not be under warranty IF they were sending it back in such a condition. Third possibility is the damage occured after the marker was returned (My bet) and thus why it was never mentioned before.

Just some things to think about.
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:37 PM #3
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How about we let our chosen brands rep speak. This was posted in the original thread we diluted your argument (while proving you a moron) in. Besides...last time I checked Robo, myself, and Vlar weren't employed by Ariakon. I'm the only ex-customer, and I'll admit I was more than happy with the deal you could make me. However you're an @ss, that's alone enough reason why I never bought from you again.
Thanks for the discount sucker!

To Quote Ariakon:
Paul,
Since you want to make this a public issue lets get the facts straight regarding the circumstances which led to your termination as a dealer.

The customer wanted to get his LED frame switched for an LCD, which we offered to do as long as his frame was in new un-used condition.

Upon receipt of the LED trigger and bottom half of the gun it was clearly not in new condition and not only was used but had signs of extended use. We notified both you and the customer directly that we would not be able to switch the trigger out due to the condition.

You told us you would deal with the customer and fight him if necessary because there was no way you were going to foot the bill for an LCD frame for him.

Much like taking a car to a dealership we inspect each return prior to beginning work so people like you can't claim we damaged something that was already damaged. In this case there was no visible damage to the internals of the marker, however there was wear and tear to the exterior indicating the marker had some use.

We then adjusted the frame and tested it prior to leaving our facility using the customers bottom half and several of our uppers. Since the customer only sent the bottom half & trigger frame this is all we could do.

We returned the product directly to the customer who promptly returned it back to you requesting a refund.

Shortly thereafter Liz from your office called us and began her tirade. She demanded that we refund you for brand new triggers you claimed were defective, which turned out not to be. She also demanded that we refund your shipping cost for sending these perfectly good triggers back to us.

Then she proceeded to accuse us of intentionally and deliberately damaging the above customer’s marker before returning it to him. It was at this point that Ken made the decision that your account would be cancelled. He informed her that we would refund you for the trigger frames that were in our possession at the time, and that your account was now terminated and you would be receiving a letter in the mail with formal notification. The call ended with Liz hanging up on Ken after saying that she would post on every forum until she got her full refund for everything she wanted including the shipping charges to send back the working triggers and the used gun which the customer sent back to you.

Now we don't like losing customers and we take it pretty seriously when we hear about events like these so we called the customer above whose gun we fixed and tried to find a way to satisfy him and regain his confidence. Turns out he has no problem with Ariakon and in fact intends to buy the same marker from another dealer. He informed us that his experience with your company was the problem and that the only problem he had with us was the fact that you were allowed to be a dealer.

On a side note lets recap some of your finer moments.

You repeatedly called in and demanded that we change our prices to include the shipping charges into the dealer prices of the products. Not only is it ridiculous for you to be calling and making demands, but you are trying to rip off other dealers who order much larger volume than you do by getting us to average the shipping charges into the product prices. This would in effect lower your cost since you only order 1-2 guns at a time and increase the cost for dealer who order 50-100 at a time. Real fair.

You called in and demanded we send you new boxes and packaging material so you could take used guns re-box them, then sell them as new. Of course you got no boxes.

You demanded access to the officers lounge because they were "talking" about you and you wanted to know what they were saying about you. You want access to that area? Earn it from the other members.

The clincher...You accused us of deliberately damaging a customers marker for no reason whatsoever. Why on earth would somebody do that? This is simply another example of your complete and utter stupidity.

If you spent half as much time running your business as you do posting in the forums and trying to weasel a few bucks out of every nook and cranny maybe you would not have these problems. Try servicing the customer instead of yourself; you'll get a lot farther.
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Last edited by Armorer : 09-21-2004 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 08:24 PM #4
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im sorry for asking a stupid question...but what do people mean when they say pot...kettle...
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Old 09-21-2004, 08:30 PM #5
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It's playing off a saying, "the pot calling the kettle black". Basicly it means that someone is saying something about someone while what they are saying also applies to them. The bot, while being black, is calling the kettle black.
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Old 09-21-2004, 08:33 PM #6
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OOOOOOOO....see...this thread is usefull after all...lol
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Old 09-21-2004, 08:35 PM #7
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Let's address this.
Yes the customer wanted the LED because it didn't have the burst mode and we offered to sell it at cost if Ariakon would take it in exchange. Ariakon claimed, rather unfairly, that it look used. Not surprising since it was subject to rapid firing because it didnt work and maybe he tried to take it off. Bottom line; it wasn't that noticeable.
The discussion on the return stands. It was inoperable when we received it and checked it out. I already said the scoring was probably due to a jammed hammer.

WE ALWAYS REMOVE THE HAMMER TO THE REAR AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING SCORE UNLESS THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE WRONG-MAYBE METAL PEENING FROM BEING SUBJECT TO UNCONTROLLABLE RAPID FIRING.
REMOVING IT TO THE FRONT REQUIRES COMPLETE DISASSEMBLY, REMOVAL OF THE VALVE AND VALVE PIN. WE WOULD NEVER ADVISE ANYONE TO DO THAT. IN THIS CASE THE POTENTIAL EXISTS FOR SCORING THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BODY AND RUINING THE SURFACE WHERE THE VALVE SEALS.

As for the other statements their is more than one side to every story. Apparently you're trying to put some spin on them. I also don't know what is a quote and what is Armorers words.
We never "demanded" shipping be included in prices. Only that you charge actual shipping costs not inflating them. We do that with all our suppliers when the problem is noticed. One of the reasons we never bought from Armotech.us is that they wanted to charge $80 for what was actually $16. Ariakon wasn't as bad but still overcharged. Yet Paintballarmory was offering free shipping. I just felt like dealers were subsidising your competition with them.
The boxes were a request when the name was changed and based on statements that "Armotech" products couldn't be sold. We only asked that if it applied to dealers we wanted new packaging.
The officers lounge was something I objected to weeks ago as setting up an "elite" group of members. My objections were well founded. They are ill mannered bad tempered, insulting and abusive. The lounge just gives them a place to hide and put down people that rub them the wrong way. You can tell by the titles of some of the threads. I wanted a chance to see what was being said in threads where my screen name was part of the title. Just wanted issues out in the open (particulary because of a post seen on another forum).
As for terminating our dealership it doesn't really matter. If it somehow makes you feel better to say it was you, go ahead. We both know you had already been advised that unless something was done about the unacceptable behavior on the forum we would stop ordering. Gus was also told the day we ordered the frames we would not be ordering anything more.

I never claimed the marker was intentionally damaged by Ariakon. Only that it came back and was not in working condition.

As for customer service, Ariakon certainly doesn't set a good example. You sell a marker that can't be taken to a field and used because it shoots too fast. Then tell people to store it cocked to break in the spring. Why not bite the bullet and get the right springs or cut the long ones down so customers can use them right away.
You refuse to pay for return shipping for a box sent to us with broken marker and missing pieces. Why should anyone have to pay for Ariakons errors? Talk about weasling a few bucks out of every nook and cranny!
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Old 09-21-2004, 09:07 PM #8
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Why pay? Because they weren't Ariakon's errors. By looking at your pics, you might want to consider that airsmith's read these and can tell tooling marks.

Even with a bent connector rod and striker bumper in place, there's no way that striker caused that scoring. it'swell behind the stop block by a few inches.
Also note the blunted screw threads on the rear lug. That kind of flattening is caused by a direct force by a substance harder than the base, I.e. a screw driver trying to lever something forward.

As to the springs, learn to READ. READING GUD. They ship markers with BOTH an low velocity and a High velocity spring. They're giving away the L-O-W velocity spring, READING GUD!
And how would service be bad...by a hot spring. Service, implying the management of returns, questions, and exchanges is responsible for a high FPS?

We were elitists before we we started using Ariakon products. Before we started dissing you. A private channel just enabled an on-site restroom where we could discuss forum matters. So once someone *****ed about you...but that's because you're the only person we hate: you. And not because you have a problem with Ariakon....but because you suck. You lack in so many areas...but to draw it up summarily, you've got no business accumen, discipline, or salesmanship. You're as rough as a 2 dollar shave and whine like a child. I wouldn't be surprised of how many MAP laws you've "bent."

REMOVING IT TO THE FRONT REQUIRES COMPLETE DISASSEMBLY, REMOVAL OF THE VALVE AND VALVE PIN. WE WOULD NEVER ADVISE ANYONE TO DO THAT. IN THIS CASE THE POTENTIAL EXISTS FOR SCORING THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BODY AND RUINING THE SURFACE WHERE THE VALVE SEALS.

There, you finally admit it. You're too stupid and lazy to take it apart properly.
Here's where my last note came from, you can't scroll up two posts to find it you're obviously trying to ignore it.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...pagen umber=2
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Last edited by Armorer : 09-21-2004 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 09:09 PM #9
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he said your gurl said they purposely damaged it...u need to talk to your girl and set her right about business...
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:45 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
Let's address this.
Yes the customer wanted the LED because it didn't have the burst mode and we offered to sell it at cost if Ariakon would take it in exchange. Ariakon claimed, rather unfairly, that it look used. Not surprising since it was subject to rapid firing because it didnt work and maybe he tried to take it off. Bottom line; it wasn't that noticeable.
Yes, let's address this. He bought the LED trigger from you, correct? Did you know the LED didn't have a burst mode? Did he ask for a Burst Mode when he bought it? Does it say on the packaging or on Ariakon's website it has a burst mode? I am willing to bet that you knew it didn't have a burst mode and that he didn't ask about it but assumed it did. Somewhere, somehow, someone didn't know and didn't find out if it had a burst mode.

So let me ask you, if you think a tire is Z rated, but don't check and don't ask or are told by the salesperson that it is. Then you mount it, drive on it for a day, then realize it ISN'T Z rated then bring it back...do you think they are going to give you full price for that tire? Probably not. It may not be very used, but it is used all the same.

So let me rephrase this...how about Ariakon take it back, repackage it, and then send it back to you? Would you sell that trigger as new? Not that you will at this point, obviously, but would you have done that before?

Quote:
The discussion on the return stands. It was inoperable when we received it and checked it out. I already said the scoring was probably due to a jammed hammer.
But it was operable when Ariakon received it. They checked it out and it worked fine...hmmmm...odd...

The scoring, from the looks of it, can only be attributed to a person trying to REMOVE a jammed hammer. A hammer jamming, would not, and could not, make grooves like that...it is not possible. A piece of metal or debris coming off the hammer and getting in there WOULD NOT and COULD NOT make grooves like that. How do I know? I again refer you to the link I put in the other thread about the engines. There is scoring on them from debris in the engine...smaller than what you are claiming would have happened in this example, that was cycled through there at 35,000 RPM. That debris makes grooves that are straight and in line with the direction of the parts' travel.

The marks in your pictures were caused by someone trying to remove that hammer.

Quote:
WE ALWAYS REMOVE THE HAMMER TO THE REAR AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING SCORE UNLESS THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE WRONG-MAYBE METAL PEENING FROM BEING SUBJECT TO UNCONTROLLABLE RAPID FIRING.
REMOVING IT TO THE FRONT REQUIRES COMPLETE DISASSEMBLY, REMOVAL OF THE VALVE AND VALVE PIN. WE WOULD NEVER ADVISE ANYONE TO DO THAT. IN THIS CASE THE POTENTIAL EXISTS FOR SCORING THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BODY AND RUINING THE SURFACE WHERE THE VALVE SEALS.
As would anyone who removes a hammer that isn't jammed. But that isn't what we are dealing with. Now, I'm not saying to remove the hammer forward...what I'm saying is is that if you took the volumizer section out...took the valve out...so that the only thing left in there was the hammer, you would then be able to insert a rod or other device in through the front of the receiver, place it against the hammer, and try to drive the hammer out the rear of the receiver...the direction it is supposed to go in.

And...if the receiver had all these gouges in it, it would thus be unrepairable...then why would you be worried about marking up the receiver any further...

...unless the receiver wasn't marked up until AFTER you tried to remove the hammer...

Quote:
As for the other statements their is more than one side to every story. Apparently you're trying to put some spin on them. I also don't know what is a quote and what is Armorers words.
As far as I can tell, starting with "Paul," everything thereafter is Ariakon's words...

Quote:
The officers lounge was something I objected to weeks ago as setting up an "elite" group of members.
You mean like the dealer's forum??? Just curious.

Quote:
My objections were well founded. They are ill mannered bad tempered, insulting and abusive. The lounge just gives them a place to hide and put down people that rub them the wrong way. You can tell by the titles of some of the threads. I wanted a chance to see what was being said in threads where my screen name was part of the title.
Ill mannered...bad tempered...insulting...abusive...hmmmm....

Anyone who cares to view it, just head on over to Ariakon and do a search for user Xnuke...read the posts, come to your own conclusions...

Those of us who are Ariakon officers and Generals have become such by being helpfull members of the forum. I am perhaps the perfect example of this. I came to the Ariakon foum as a Warsensor owner...I did so during the height of the Ariakon vs. Armotech/Warsensor issue (do a search if you want to know more). It was a general rule that the two camps didn't not trust one another and did not get along at all. They let me sign up, let me post about a product on their forum made not only by a direct rival but a company with which they were in a legal battle with at the time. They watched me warily, waiting for me to go on an Anti-Ariakon kick...but they gave me the benifit of the doubt. Because of my contributions and level headedness, I was voted in first as an officer, then as a General (there are only four Generals on their forum and the fourth spot was open for months) before I ever was a customer. Again, form your own conclusions about their "eliteism" from that.

We never hid behind our titles. We do not do so now. We do use that forum to discuss things that should not be discussed on the public side of that forum, this is true. It would never be allowed to gripe about a pain-in-the-rear dealer such as you had become on a public forum. Yes there have been times when the officers and Generals have gotten a little out of line...and their fellow officers and Generals have not stood by and idlely let them off without calling them to the carpet on it...IN THE OFFICER'S FORUM. But of course, you would never see that, would you? As is common from what I've seen in your posts, you have a nugget of information and build a mountain of opinion out of it then try and sell it as fact. As Ariakon said, you want to see what's going on in there, all you had to do is earn the right to be there.

Quote:
I never claimed the marker was intentionally damaged by Ariakon. Only that it came back and was not in working condition.
No, never claimed that...rather you claimed they were incompetent, would break a marker, not know they broke a marker (and by the pictures you showed us here it is IMPOSSIBLE to not know that kind of damage would make the marker unusable nor could be done without the person doing it KNOWING they had damaged the marker thus making an unintentional damaging of the marker just about an impossibility), not test the marker before shipping it to you, and thus not know the marker had been damaged by them. No, you never claimed they did it intentionally...but everything you bring up sure is to make it sound like they knew it wasn't working when it left them.

Quote:
As for customer service, Ariakon certainly doesn't set a good example. You sell a marker that can't be taken to a field and used because it shoots too fast. Then tell people to store it cocked to break in the spring. Why not bite the bullet and get the right springs or cut the long ones down so customers can use them right away.
They have bit the bullet. Those who own markers with the high velocity springs already can get the low velocity ones at no charge and the new markers are coming with them already installed. Mine did. To me that is an examle of a company seeing a problem and doing something about it. They offered an interm solution until they could make the necessary corrections to properly solve the problem. Again, because you are not a manufacturer you have no idea the time and effort it takes to correct something like this.

Quote:
You refuse to pay for return shipping for a box sent to us with broken marker and missing pieces. Why should anyone have to pay for Ariakons errors? Talk about weasling a few bucks out of every nook and cranny!
I'm sure someone at Ariakon broke the marker and took out pieces then beat up the box and sent it to you that way. I'm SURE it couldn't happen in shipping...

Not only that, but I've seen dealers for the company I use to work for get a product, open it up, then send it back to us saying it was missing pieces and needed to be refunded. Here's the funny part. The company I worked for weighed each product as it left. If the box was off by less than the weight of a single DIME, it was opened and the missing piece was found...and we're talking a product that had hundreds if not thousands of pieces. Unless there were extra parts somewhere in the kit, it was impossible for something to be missing. (And we had people saying they had entire engines missing.) So it isn't unheard of to have a dealer receive a "broken" marker with "missing" pieces. I don't know how Ariakon does their quality control, but I'm guessing that there is some sort of check and balance to the whole thing.

Last edited by Robotech : 09-22-2004 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:18 AM #11
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X-nuke,
stay tuned for my following post, it sums up your existence in our community.
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:21 AM #12
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Actually. I'm done here. I've said what I wanted to say and answered some comments. It's turned into personal attacks from five or six of you just as it did on the Ariakon forum. I see no reason for it and will not address anything you have to say of a personal nature. It it doesn't address the trigger frames don't bother.
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Old 09-22-2004, 11:28 AM #13
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Xnuke, you are making allegations that the triggers you received are faulty and that the damaged done to the markers was due to their being faulty and not to anything that you or the customer did. When you make such an allegation when the rest of the dealers don't have anything even close to the defect to sales ratio you have...even though they sell FAR more of this product than you do...your integrity, honesty, and agenda will be questioned.

I won't even go into the aspect that this entire subject is aimed personally at Ariakon...claiming they have a defective product and that they are refusing to do anything about it. That's you're opinion of the situation and of them. When we do the same thing to you it becomes a "personal attack".

And speaking of personal attacks, let me quote you here so I get the comment you made about the Officers and Generals on the Ariakon forum right...

Quote:
They are ill mannered bad tempered, insulting and abusive.
Now, you know I'm a General over there. This comment may not have mentioned me by name but since I am part of the group you are talking about and didn't see the need to exclude me you must be including me in that comment as well. Every argument I've offered up has refrained from childish name calling even when questioning your motives and opinions. Even after this post I refused to stoop to your level. I defended my fellow officers and offered people to read the threads and make their own opinions of you.

You're done here and you won't address anything of a personal nature. Then how about you start addressing issues that I've brought up with the trigger or did you just forget about those? Issues such as:

How does something moving back and forth in a straight line make CURVED gouges?

How does the hammer make gouges in and area it cannot reach?

How can the hammer flatten threads that are supposed to be covered by the velocity plug?

If the damage occured before the marker was sent to Ariakon how could they have tested the marker?

Why would Ariakon receive a damaged marker, from someone who they know is pretty vocal about things, and send it back in the same condition (or worse condition) as when they received it? What would they have to gain out of that?

How can the trigger and receiver lower half work at Ariakon and then, when the customer gets it, not work three hours after receiving it?

How can you have a failure rate of 75% (3 out of 4 triggers bad) when there are hundreds of these triggers out there and the most failures you can dig up are two others on the Ariakon forum?

How does an Ariakon marker come broken and missing peices yet arrive in a pristine box? (I'm assuming the box is pristine because you didn't mention it's condition. I have a feeling though that the box was damaged as well indication an issue in shipping...but that would relieve Ariakon of fault)

How about the question I posed at the very beginning of my last post? Did the customer ask about burst mode? Did you tell him that the trigger he was buying didn't have burst mode? Was the issue of burst mode ever brought up during that innitial purchase? Most electronic devices that I purchase are non-returnable once purchased and I'm trying to see why this would be any different. I'm just trying to understand why Ariakon should take back a product that has even the slightest signs of wear only because the customer purchased an item that didn't do what he thought it would do not out of misrepresentation but rather out of his own lack of knowledge and/or information on the product.

How does a trigger cause the striker to jam?

You may respond to that question with it damaged and marked up the striker causing the jam so then I'll ask how a marker cycling, even rapidly, will cause damage to the striker? After all, isn't this what the striker is suposed to do? Is there a certain CPS that, once surpased, the striker begins to come apart?

If the striker is able to be damaged in such a way, why wouldn't the sear be damaged too?

If such a CPS could do so much damage, then how could Ariakon get the assembly to work?

So there you have it...only about the trigger...again. With a couple of exceptions...I've asked these questions before without receiving any explinations.

Last edited by Robotech : 09-22-2004 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:27 PM #14
Xnuke
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I don't know how to answer all your questions other than to say I have seen a number of markers damaged due to uncontrolled rapid firing. It bends cocking knobs and raises metal where impacts occur. The striker causes gouging trying to remove. Noticed I said trying because it gets jammed before it comes out the back. It cannot be removed and a I didn't want to force it.
Bottom line, it came back from Arikon unable to cock, couldn't remove the hammer and saw o-ring missing and no lubrication. REPEAT IT CAME BACK AND WAS NOT ABLE TO BE COCKED. CUSTOMER SAID HE DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY THEY SAID THEY COULD GET IT TO WORK
The other SIM4 was sent to them with same problem.
Rapid uncontrolled firing leading to hammer getting jammed causing gouging in body trying to remove.
This was after trying to adjust electronic trigger frame following their instructions which by the way goes beyond any normal adjustment. The sear height is maxed out using normal adjustment. Their guidance has you "force" the plate back more using a screwdriver and then snug down the set screw. You can't set it because it forces the plate forward again..
They already said they need adjustments when installed on a marker because every one is different. This adjustments, if they work go, beyond the intended travel of the lug.
Testing them on the shop marker doesn't mean anything if they have to be installed and adjusted on a totally different marker. Any attempt to install could cause the same damage we've seen. I would not go thru that with another customer.

As for other issues. They took the return on the marker that was missing parts and had wobbly trigger frame. It must have been a return and mistakenly shipped. I just thought they should pay the return shipping. In fact I thought they agreed to but never did.

I don't know the failure rate of the triggers but you don't have to go far to see that it is not uncommon. There are enough on the Ariakon forum. I'm sure there are a lot more who don't go to the forum.
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Old 09-22-2004, 02:01 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
I don't know how to answer all your questions other than to say I have seen a number of markers damaged due to uncontrolled rapid firing. It bends cocking knobs and raises metal where impacts occur. The striker causes gouging trying to remove. Noticed I said trying because it gets jammed before it comes out the back. It cannot be removed and a I didn't want to force it.
This is not what was said initially. So the scratches that you were showing pictures of were caused during your attempt to remove the striker?

Quote:
Bottom line, it came back from Arikon unable to cock, couldn't remove the hammer and saw o-ring missing and no lubrication. REPEAT IT CAME BACK AND WAS NOT ABLE TO BE COCKED. CUSTOMER SAID HE DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY THEY SAID THEY COULD GET IT TO WORK
So he got it back, couldn't cock it, brought it to you, you saw the o-ring missing (which, if memory serves you said before the o-ring was there and torn and that this what was causing the jam...yes...here it is "Hammer o-ring was half gone") and no lubrication. Once you saw that, you attemped to remove the hammer to try and solve the problem and scratched up the receiver in the process? I'm just seeing if I have the information correct.

The explination I can give is that someone isn't being truthfull. To seek out the truth I usually look to see who has more to gain by being decetful.

Ariakon. If Ariakon lies what are they out? The cost to make one half a marker? What is that, $100-$200? (We're talking what Ariakon pays for the marker. I have no idea what markups are on these things LOL) A loss, sure, but in the overall sceme of things not a HUGE loss. They know you are very meticulous about things so if they don't fix it right they know they, and the world, are going to know about it. The bad publicity probably isn't worth the $100-$200 saved.

Customer. If the customer received the marker and then did something that accidentally damaged the marker what would he gain by being untruthful about it? Well, if he states that the marker came this way he could get his marker fixed or replaced (I don't think he would be looking to get a new marker out of this...just looking to get the mistake he made corrected for nothing) for no more than the cost of shipping. It could also just be that he was embarrased by the fact this happened and wouldn't want to admit to doing something to mess up his marker after all this happened. If he gets no results out of it he really isn't any worse off than he is now.

To me, it is more than likely that the customer isn't being 100% honest about this. I think that with past history between Xnuke and Ariakon that any customer of his would be taken extra care of just so Xnuke wouldn't have anythingn to complain about.

Quote:
The other SIM4 was sent to them with same problem.
Rapid uncontrolled firing leading to hammer getting jammed causing gouging in body trying to remove.
This was after trying to adjust electronic trigger frame following their instructions which by the way goes beyond any normal adjustment. The sear height is maxed out using normal adjustment. Their guidance has you "force" the plate back more using a screwdriver and then snug down the set screw. You can't set it because it forces the plate forward again..
They already said they need adjustments when installed on a marker because every one is different. This adjustments, if they work go, beyond the intended travel of the lug.
Having never set up one of these triggers I'll take your word for it. If this is the case, and at this point I have no reason not to believe this, that is something that needs to be addressed. I don't know when these issues first cropped up but if it has been under 4-5 months then I can understand why you haven't seen the results on your shelf yet. R&D to come up with a proper solution to this can take a few weeks if not months. Then the new design needs to be sent to the manufacturer of the parts and they must retool to make the necessary changes, a couple weeks to a month (or more) there depending on what they have to get to retool. Then they start production and usually it takes a couple months from when the production begins to when the product actually gets to Ariakon (at the R/C car company we had a three month lead time on orders for current parts. Meaning you place the order with the part manufacturer in July you receive the part in October). So that's, what, about 4-5 months? Maybe more depending on how hard the solution is to figure out and how long it takes to retool for the change.

Quote:
Testing them on the shop marker doesn't mean anything if they have to be installed and adjusted on a totally different marker.
Absolutely true. I believe it was stated that they tested some on their shop markers because all that was sent into them were the triggers. On the marker we are talking about here, the bottom half of the receiver was sent in with the trigger and they had to use the top half of their shop markers to test it. Obviously when a customer has an issue such as this (until the problem is resolved) he should at least try to send in the bottom half of his marker if not the whole receiver.

Quote:
Any attempt to install could cause the same damage we've seen. I would not go thru that with another customer.
This is painting with a very broad brush. Could...well...hell...crossing the street COULD get you run over but the possibility of it if you take proper precautions will keep you out of trouble. Same can be said here. Attempting to install one of these triggers does not mean you will have this kind of damage. Actually, this kind of damage is the exception, not the rule, and it still has not been presented by either side what may be causeing the problem other than it is something about putting this kind of trigger on their specific marker. The specific cause of the rapid firing, i.e. what is causing this issue under these conditions with these parts, has not been determined. You say triggers are the issue, Ariakon says possible operator error but they are still working with the customer to figure out the SPECIFIC issue.

Quote:
As for other issues. They took the return on the marker that was missing parts and had wobbly trigger frame. It must have been a return and mistakenly shipped. I just thought they should pay the return shipping. In fact I thought they agreed to but never did.
Again, I'm getting just one side of the story. If this is indeed what happened then yes, Ariakon should pay for return shipping on their mistake. BUT that is only IF the events occured exactly as you have presented them. As I said in the past, I'm leary of your facts based on our previous conversations. There is some truth there for certain, the question is just how much.

Quote:
I don't know the failure rate of the triggers but you don't have to go far to see that it is not uncommon. There are enough on the Ariakon forum. I'm sure there are a lot more who don't go to the forum.
You can't use that ruler to judge how common it is. I've seen more complaints about failure rates that were 0.10% If there are 200 of these things out there and you see 6 that are bad (your three plus the 2-3 that were on the Ariakon forum) that's 3%. I'm willing to bet there are more than 200 of these triggers out there but I dn't have the numbers. By the comments on the Ariakon forum the number one issue is velocity and this probably ranks as number two...by a wide margin. The first one has already been addressed and the problem is in the process of being rectified by the release of the new spring. You are probably right that there are more than those that go to the forum but I am willing to bet that they have contacted Ariakon and only a very small percentage, if any, have ignored it and just not used the trigger. Most people don't spend $100 on something and not use it.
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Old 09-22-2004, 02:48 PM #16
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Le me address the issue with the one return. I never said Ariakon deliberately damaged it. All I said was it came to us inoperable. The customer said he put all the rest of the parts back in the box and returned it to us. FEDEX records indicate he got it at 3:15 on Thursday 9/9. UPS records had it being sent back to us 6:40 the same day. This is not the time it was actually brought to UPS (or shipping center), but the time it was scanned by the driver when doing his pickup. That leaves just over 3 hours to package it back up and get it to UPS. I gave him the benefit of doubt.

I never said an o-ring caused the jam. It is obvious to anyone that the gouging is caused by metal contact. The o-ring would not damage the metal. The o-ring half that was left on the hammer fell off.
We would have been more than happy to resell this gun if only it had worked. We still don't know if the electronic frame works since the hammer hasn't been removed. The external condition is like new despite what Ariakon said. The trigger frame had a section of bare metal showing thru the finish where it attaches to the body but I've seen that on the double triggers right out of the box.
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Old 09-22-2004, 03:09 PM #17
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Enough, Just Enough. This does not need to be brought to PBN. I am closing this and if it is posted in ANY part of this website again I wont just be closing the thread. Someone isnt telling the whole truth. The bottom line is that we arent there and we didnt know what happened. We can only rely on what you're saying to use about the situation and that has so far not been the least bit helpfull.

Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
We intend to take this as far as necessary.
Well dont take it here, This is a PUBLIC forum and will result in many diffrent opinions of one topic. Take it somewhere private as any "bad publicity" you give Ariakon will come back to hurt you if you do go farther beyond this point.

I'm not saying anyone did something. I'm just saying this isnt an issue you should be discussing here. Someone isnt telling the truth, I suggest you find out who that is. It seems like Ariakon wouldnt do this over a simple product flaw, like any company I know of they would take it in, swallow their pride and admit they did something wrong. In this case, They have done absoloutley nothing wrong until you can without a doubt prove otherwise.

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