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Old 06-24-2012, 12:28 AM #1
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Post Machine Paintball Vapor Tuning Guide V1/2/3

I've been getting so many questions about tuning the Vapor that I've decided to make an official thread that I can point people to. I'll keep this as up to date as possible.




2014 settings coming soon!


Part 1: Routine Maintenance

99% of problems that I've encountered are caused by silly mistakes and/or user error. That being said, Maintenance should be the largest concern for any owner. Take care of your marker and it'll take care of you.

I've put almost 71 cases of paint through my vapor so far. I shot about 5 cases for testing different lubricants alone. Here are my findings:

Any lube that's thinner than Marmalade, but thicker than Eclipse oil will work just fine. DOW55 isn't my favorite because this marker will perform just fine without having to swell the orings. I prefer to use a thin coat of Monkeypoo, a medium coat of DOW33, or a medium-heavy coat of Hater. GunSav, while silky smooth, gets flung off too quickly. Feel free to use it, but be aware most of it will end up in your barrel after a single round and the increase in friction could cause your marker to act up.

Now, on to maintenance.

After every weekend of play: Pull out the drivetrain; unscrew the front can and remove the bolt. Wipe down all orings with a microfiber and then relube with whatever floats your boat. Personally, I take each oring out and clean each oring groove as well as each oring. That way, I know the same amount of pressure is being applied to each part of the oring (IE no globs of lube are deforming the oring, which can cause orings to wear unevenly). Be sure to also clean the 017s that are inside the body. The rear feedneck is the main culprit for breech leaks because it is exposed to dirt and debris that enters your breech through your hopper. Breech orings as well as the can oring are all 017s. I also stretch 017 orings around the outside of the drivetrain to seal against the body, however sometimes 018s seal better. The bolt guide should use two 013 orings. The bolt sail should be an 016, with an 015/90 bumper in front of it and the rear bumper should be a 2x14.

If you break paint: Do the maintenance procedure for every weekend, and then remove the eye covers. Clean the eyes with a q-tip or microfiber, and be sure to clean out the detents to make sure they don't stick. I recommend popping each detent out by pushing the spring/piston out via the access/vent hole. An oring pick fits in there nicely... Also be sure to get all of the paint out of the eye housing area, because your eye covers may not lock fully if there are flakes of shell in there.

Once per month: In addition to regular cleaning, I suggest taking apart the efficiency valve inside the bolt guide so you can clean the gunk out of it. It acts much like a dirt/debris trap and that can cause it to wear down or stick in place if you don't clean and lube it once in a while. Refer to my breakdown guide for more info.

Every other month (at least once per season): Unscrew your HPR. Disassemble and check orings and reg seat for wear. Relube and reassemble. Refer to my breakdown guide or watch my disassembly video HERE if you're confused about what goes where. BE SURE TO USE A PADDED VICE to remove the top part of the reg (or alternatively, a correctly-sized allen key). If your marker starts acting up after rebuilding the reg, it's most likely because there's a leak within the HPR, see the Troubleshooting Section for more info on where to look.

Part 2: Tuning Guide

This is that part of the guide that I should REALLY charge for next time...If you like the guide or found it useful, PLEASE feel free to shoot me a donation to help me make my car payments

Anyway, Machine has come out with one major revision of the drivetrain. There's the V1/2 system (stock gold can, cupped or flat-faced bolt), and then there's the V3 parts (reduced-flow red can, voltage regulator)

So, keep this in mind: The V3 firing can (the big red can) has a reduced airflow compared to the V1 can. This is done on purpose to slow down the bolt speed. By slowing down the bolt speed, you need to INCREASE all of the timings. I'll write out the tuning guide, and put V1 timings in orange, V3 timings in red.

Before you being tuning, clean and lube your marker. Every inch of it. I suggest you use an old toothbrush to scrub out the hard-to-reach places.

Now that that's done, chrono your marker. I find that 285-290 seems ideal. Make sure your FT screw at the back of the marker is set so that it's only covering 1/3 of the vent port.

~Run tune assist. This will help give you an idea of where you'd like your dwell to be. Hypothetically speaking, let's say that at 9ms, I can see the bolt cycling, but I don't feel a puff of air down the barrel yet. Obviously, that's too short of a timing. Let's say that at 10ms, I can start to hear the marker fire, but it sounds weak. That's normal. By 11ms, the marker should be making a nice thump down the barrel and 12ms should sound exactly the same as 11ms. YOUR NUMBERS MIGHT BE DIFFERENT, THAT'S FINE! So in the example above, I found that 11ms made a nice shot signature. I would then get out of tune assist, and manually set my dwell to 11+1 for good measure (12)ms. Basically, take whatever dwell you first heard that nice thump at and add 1ms. That will account for when your marker starts to run dry, or it gets humid out, or when it's cold out. Most markers tend to like 12ms for V1 cans, 14ms for V3 cans.

~Once your dwell is dialed in, we need to dial in your bolt return delay. SUPER IMPORTANT PART: Some of the APE boards have a slightly reduced range on them (and this is fine, you don't need to return your board or anything crazy like that). The original boards have an adjustable range between 1 and 40ms of bolt return delay. At some point, I noticed that a few boards only had an adjustable range of 1-20ms of bolt return. I found that these 'reduced range' boards already had 18-20ms of delay dialed in. So, here's what this means:
-If your board goes up to 40ms, dial in 28ms for V1 cans, 35ms for V3 cans.
-If your board goes up to 20ms, dial in 10ms for V1 cans, 17ms for V3 cans.

~For breech delay, I got best results at 6-8ms for V1 cans, 10-12ms for V3 cans.
When in doubt, set it to 15.

~Dwell (check). Bolt Return (check). Breech Delay (check). Now it's time for the generic settings:

Marker Setpoints:
Lead Edge DB: 4
Trail Edge DB: 4
Trig Filter: 0
ABS Dwell: 2ms
ABS Reset Time: 2minutes
Eye Mode: STD
Eye Process: STD (or ADV)

Firing Setpoints:
Capped Firing: ON (I've said it once, and I'll say it again; spoolies aren't meant to fire 30+ bps. If you're trying to fire over 15-18bps, you're wasting your time)
Ramp Mode: BRST

2014 Rough Tuning (Will be updated as I work on more 2014s)
Same procedure as the original/2012 vapor, however because of the new eye system and bolt system, some of the numbers are radically different.

Eye Mode: 2 (Standard)
Eye Process: 2 (Advanced)
Breech Load Delay: 8-10ms
ABS Dwell: 2ms
ABS Reset Time: 10 seconds
Solenoid Dwell: 8-10ms
Bolt Return: 22-28ms (run higher if you're running the FT screw farther in)

FT screw setting: Anywhere between 1/3 covered and 1/2 covered seems to work magic on Dan's vapor. Again, I'll edit and refine this as I work on more 2014s.


Promod's advanced tuning corner.

DISCLAIMER!

I am not suggesting you do any of the following. These are just some ideas I've been toying around with and I've received amazing results so far. Should you choose to follow the path I took, you'll be voiding a few warranties, which will cost you time, money, and effort. Fair Warning.


I'm not going into much depth here as I REALLY don't want any of you trying this, but for my fellow techs, there are two little tricks I like to do that'll make vapors really shine.

First off, I feel as if the solenoid is operating at it's upper operating pressure levels when chrono'ing near 300. I found that I was able to get more efficiency by altering the solenoid's return spring. My theory is that this helps the valve close faster, which makes the dwell timing more consistent. I took the stock spring and stretched it out to 9.85mm and I found that to be around ideal. I also tried 10.5 and 11mms on other springs but found the results to be detrimental to the forward cycle of the marker. Additionally, I found it HIGHLY beneficial to scrub out the factory lube and apply a thin coat of monkeypoo all over the solenoid spool and inside the housing with the help of a q-tip.

My second mod also has to do with a return spring, but this one is for the 'efficiency valve'. Long story short, the stock spring is around 49.50mm, I brought mine up to around 55.25mm

It should be noted that all of my mods are done on a yellow can and cupped bolt (V1 vapor).
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2014 Vapor Breakdown Video
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Vapor Breakdown, and Vapor Tuning Guide
Originally posted by msonic- Think of Simon as Paintball's Tony Stark. For real.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:28 AM #2
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Post Machine Paintball Vapor Tuning Guide

Part 3: Troubleshooting/Problem Solving

~HELP! My eye covers are falling off!
Check here for my fix: EYE COVER FIX

~Weird....my reg logo is 90* to one side AKA My Reg has this huge gap between the Reg and the Frame
This happens when you crank on the reg without air being in the marker. Don't treat your reg like a throttle and it won't happen again!
Now for the fix: unscrew your reg, and put the silver or black top in a padded vice. unscrew the top bonnet by at least 1/2 a turn. Put the reg back on your marker and turn until the logo lines up where you want it to. If it REALLY bugs you, take the silver or black piece all the way off and put a SMALL drop of BLUE threadlock on and it won't budge again. You could also use superglue. I chose to use JBweld on mine xD

Reference this video if you're still having trouble. I HIGHLY suggest using the 2nd method I mention to take apart the reg; it's faster and there's less chance of you damaging something.


~HELP! My marker is firing randomly and it sounds REALLY loud when it shoots.
Your marker is over-pressurizing. That means that your HPR needs to be rebuilt. See the video above for a visual demonstration of how to disassemble the reg. Refer to my breakdown if you're confused about what goes where. Long story short, there's a leak somewhere in your HPR that's causing unregulated air to go straight to your solenoid.....which is bad.... unscrew the velocity adjustment screw on the bottom of the HPR and ensure that the top oring is in good condition. The other location that could cause this leak is from the top-most oring on the reg. It should be an 8x2mm oring.

~Ehh....my marker is breaking paint....
This is always a touchy subject because there are so many factors to take into account. It should be noted, if you're shooting tourney grade paint at any major event, there's a good chance you're going to break a ball or two. Now, if you're breaking paint in a recball setting, you definitely have a problem. Here's some things I would consider;
  1. Age of the paint
    Hopefully you're using decent paint; It should bounce when dropped from hip-to-shoulder level, and break if it's any higher than that. If it's breaking from hip-level, it's going to break in your gun. If it's breaking from sub-hip level, it's going to break in your pod, AND in your loader, AND in your gun. It's just not meant to be shot.
  2. Loader Tension
    If you're using a rotor, I suggest you open it up and turn down the tension adjustment screw. Your marker won't feed 40+ BPS, but it'll be a hell of a lot easier on paint, and it will help prevent rollback/clipping in the breech by reducing tension on the stack.
  3. Bolt Return Delay
    If this is set too low, your marker will check the eyes too soon after the marker has fired and it'll think there's paint in the breech where in reality, the bolt is in the way. This will cause double-fires, dry-fires, and chops from paint being forced into the breech.
  4. Breech Delay
    This is how long the marker waits for the paintball to settle in the breech after it 'sees' paint. I suggest leaving this anywhere above 6ms
  5. Eye Mode and Process
    STD for both. If you want to switch them to ADV, don't let me get in your way.
  6. Battery Condition
    FRESH BATTERIES FIX MOST PROBLEMS!
  7. Operating Pressure
    If you're trying to chrono 350, that *might* be part of the problem.
  8. Dwell
    Running too short of a dwell will lead to efficiency gains, but at the expense of being a little more harsh on paint. I suggest running a slightly higher dwell if possible to prevent any sort of unneeded stress on the paintballs. Do it for your balls, they'll thank you later.


~How the hell do you use an APE board?
APE boards are some of the easiest boards to use. The menu tree is a little big, but for the amount of customization you can do, it's totally worth the price. To enter the programming menu, hold the trigger down while powering the marker on. Once you're in the programming menu, click the trigger quickly to scroll down through the options. To 'select' an option, hold the trigger down for a half-second. To adjust a setting, hit the power button to raise a value, or hit the eye button to lower a value. To go back a branch, click the trigger until you see a little black arrow in the top left. hold the trigger down and it'll go back. If you want to exit out, keep clicking the trigger until you see a small X in the top right of the screen. hold the trigger and your marker will restart.


~AHH! There's a puff of air on my hand every time the marker fires. What's going on?
That's the vent hole for the solenoid. If you want to lessen that puff of air, adjust the 'feather touch' screw under the back cap. It's the smallest silver screw, and it lines up with said vent port. It should be the third screw from the left. Be sure not to LOCK this screw down, as it'll cause the bolt to stick forward.

~I'm getting shootdown and/or dropoff! What should I do?
I've heard of some people having trouble with dropoff and shootdown when using a SLP regulator. If you're tank output is between 400 and 550 PSI, you should be fine. (I recommend taking most if not all shims out of your standard Ninja reg; that seems to do the trick.) FSDO to +2ms after 2 and dwell +1 always help.
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2014 Vapor Breakdown Video
ProMod's Marker Repair Thread,
Vapor Breakdown, and Vapor Tuning Guide
Originally posted by msonic- Think of Simon as Paintball's Tony Stark. For real.
"...Looks Like A...." earns you an instant NEWBIE tag. Don't be a newbie.

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Old 06-24-2012, 12:28 AM #3
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Post Machine Paintball Vapor Tuning Guide

Part 4: Leak Guide
Got a leak? I've got a fix.

Symptom: Leaking from breech/leaking down the barrel
Solution: Air doesn't leak through metal. Keeping that in mind, there are only two orings that lead to the breech; There's the 017 oring that's inside the body (Rear Feedneck oring) and there's the 013 on the front of the bolt guide (Front Guide oring). I strongly suggest using buna orings or harder poly orings. Softer poly orings tend to allow the bolt to wiggle around and rub against the bolt guide and in the breech.

Symptom: Leaking from the frame
Solution: The source of frame leaks are from the two 1x3mm orings that sit between the frame and the body (for the gas-through-grip setup). The most common causes are pinched eye wires, loose frame screws, and in a few weird cases, missing orings. Long story short, it's almost always caused by a first time user re-assembling the marker improperly, but it's a quick fix if you know what to look for.

Symptom: Leaking from vent port
Solution: When air leaks from the vent port, it means that air is somehow getting behind the bolt when the marker is sitting idle. The orings that would cause air to get behind the bolt would be the bolt sail (016), the rear bolt guide oring (013), and the oring on the back of the firing can (017 or 018 if you want a tight fit). In some rare cases, I've seen the SMC solenoids not close properly (and thus cause a vent port leak) because of a strand of hair, or dirt/debris. The vapor uses the same 'noid as a DM6-13 if you'd like to swap it out and check to see if the problem is fixed.

Symptom: Other
Solution: Contact me! (pm me here so I can keep track of everything)


I'll keep adding to this guide as I come across more info. If you have any questions/comments/concerns, please feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll help you out

Part 5: Vapor Identification

There have been a few slight tweaks that were done to the vapor over time, and I want to clear up some of the misconceptions about parts and their effects.

V1: Original Vapor design. When tuned properly, shot money.

V2 Parts: The V2 parts were meant to correct issues caused by slight differences in machining. For instance, the V2 ASA core was conceived to prevent the core from falling out when the marker was sitting around in its case. The V2 ASA Cam was milled down slightly to prevent it from rubbing and/or binding against the ASA Screws. And the V2 tophat had slightly different dimensions on the bottom half that made it more difficult to 'accidentally' over pressurize the marker. THESE PARTS DID NOT CHANGE THE PERFORMANCE OF THE MARKER WHATSOEVER, THEY WERE TO CORRECT SLIGHT VARIATIONS FROM BATCH TO BATCH. That's why I kept saying that they're given out "On a need basis". If you don't have a problem with the part, don't swap it out.

Now, shortly after these parts came out, Machine released the V2 bolt. This bolt had a flat-face which aided in preventing rollback as well as to better align the ball stack in the marker, making it easier for the eyes to detect paint. Pooty announced his flat-faced bolt almost immediately after, if not at the same time. His bolt features angled port cutouts, a milled down section to increase shot-chamber volume, as well as his classic flat-faced design. I personally prefer the bolts in this order: V1 (provided I'm not using small bore paint, otherwise pooty bolt all the way), Pooty Flat-Faced, V2.

V3 Parts: The V3 parts are the parts most people want in their marker. These are the parts that CHANGE THE PERFORMANCE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE MARKER.

V3 parts include the RED firing can and the voltage regulator. The firing can has 1 single port on the back to slow down the bolt's forward speed. This allows the marker to shoot slightly more fragile paint, at the expense of efficiency.

The voltage regulator is simply a mosfet that limits the current, given a certain voltage. This make the marker dramatically more consistent with both alkaline and lithium batteries. The reg should be installed between the board and the solenoid, NOT BETWEEN THE BOARD AND THE BATTERY.
__________________
2014 Vapor Breakdown Video
ProMod's Marker Repair Thread,
Vapor Breakdown, and Vapor Tuning Guide
Originally posted by msonic- Think of Simon as Paintball's Tony Stark. For real.
"...Looks Like A...." earns you an instant NEWBIE tag. Don't be a newbie.

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Old 06-24-2012, 02:07 AM #4
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Nice guide. Pretty comprehensive.
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:41 PM #5
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Awesome post, doing the tuning as soon as I get mine tomorrow
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:51 PM #6
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Just followed this to the Tee. wiped and replaced with a thin coat of pootypoo lube, dwell 10, bolt return 35, eyes, breech delay as listed above. Gun felt AMAZING to shoot. comparable to my luxe which was broken it.

-I still have a question with the venting out of the back. Tony, I played with different positions of the FT screw. While all the way in did give me a smoother shot, there was a steady flow of air out of the back even during shooting. i even adjusted the reg to try to close it off and it still vented from the back. The more I backed out the screw, the less noticeable the venting was until it got to the point of finally closing off after shooting. I checked, cleaned and lubed the rear breach (017) and both bolt guide orings (013).
Any Ideas?

Al
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Old 06-24-2012, 07:10 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acabello72 View Post
Just followed this to the Tee. wiped and replaced with a thin coat of pootypoo lube, dwell 10, bolt return 35, eyes, breech delay as listed above. Gun felt AMAZING to shoot. comparable to my luxe which was broken it.

-I still have a question with the venting out of the back. Tony, I played with different positions of the FT screw. While all the way in did give me a smoother shot, there was a steady flow of air out of the back even during shooting. i even adjusted the reg to try to close it off and it still vented from the back. The more I backed out the screw, the less noticeable the venting was until it got to the point of finally closing off after shooting. I checked, cleaned and lubed the rear breach (017) and both bolt guide orings (013).
Any Ideas?

Al
Because the FT screw controls the rate at which the solenoid vents, you'll never be able to truly eliminate the air flow from that port. you can however slow it down dramatically for a much smoother shot. Try backing the FT screw out so it's flush with the body under the back-cap and then slowly start dialing it in with 1/2 turn increments until you find a spot you like. I think I have mine set 3/4 of a turn from 'fully' closed.
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:45 PM #8
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I was actually trying just that... I ended up with the screw about 1 1/4 from all the way in.. That's when I noticed that the vent would stop "leaking" after shooting it. I feel like there is either something that's missing, that's not being done? I honestly dont think *well dont want to think* that they spent a **** ton of money on R&D and ended up with a gun that leaks when aired up. I understand the noid has to vent.. but to my knowledge, that would be after firing.. not right off the bat.. I'll shoot them an email
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:02 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acabello72 View Post
I was actually trying just that... I ended up with the screw about 1 1/4 from all the way in.. That's when I noticed that the vent would stop "leaking" after shooting it. I feel like there is either something that's missing, that's not being done? I honestly dont think *well dont want to think* that they spent a **** ton of money on R&D and ended up with a gun that leaks when aired up. I understand the noid has to vent.. but to my knowledge, that would be after firing.. not right off the bat.. I'll shoot them an email
it sounds like your bolt is getting stuck; humor me and switch the front bumper oring out as well as the sail oring before you email them (015/90 and 016 respectively)
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:25 PM #10
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ok just swapped both... a couple of times... still hear the issue. it's a noticeable hiss at first.. nothing dramatic, but you know it's there. After firing a few shots it gets less and less audible until finally i cant tell if there's still a hiss or not
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:37 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acabello72 View Post
ok just swapped both... a couple of times... still hear the issue. it's a noticeable hiss at first.. nothing dramatic, but you know it's there. After firing a few shots it gets less and less audible until finally i cant tell if there's still a hiss or not
are you absolutely sure it's coming from the vent? Could it be coming from around the back cap?

make sure your marker is aired up, but powered off and then put your ear next to the feedneck. if you can hear the leak, it's coming from the front bolt guide/rear feedneck oring.

back cap/weird internal leaks: replace the external drivetrain orings with 017s (might be a little tricky to stretch them over the drivetrain but they seal up really well) and lube with the thickest stuff you have on hand.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:53 PM #12
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yep... million percent sure it's from the vent port. nothing from back cap. nothing from feedneck. i put my finger over the port when i initially air up, and yes, with the marker off, and the hiss stops. take finger off.. hiss is back. I fire 2-3 times hiss is gone
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:59 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acabello72 View Post
yep... million percent sure it's from the vent port. nothing from back cap. nothing from feedneck. i put my finger over the port when i initially air up, and yes, with the marker off, and the hiss stops. take finger off.. hiss is back. I fire 2-3 times hiss is gone
Had an idea just now, try replacing the rear bolt guide oring (013) and lube it heavily with something thick
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:48 PM #14
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Was the first thing I did before I even "met" you lol
Al from Staten island
Ans yes you're tony from jersey
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:21 AM #15
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dumb question but can u show where this FT is? and on your pictures for the bolt dis-assembly.. how to take off the back cap ... I could do it on my vic but can't figure this one out
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:29 AM #16
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Button underneath "fangs" on the back cap. Push it up then rotate the bolt 90 degrees and pull it out.

Ft is the third screw from left to right. It lines right up with the vent port underneath.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:49 AM #17
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:28 AM #18
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Originally Posted by acabello72 View Post
Was the first thing I did before I even "met" you lol
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dumb question but can u show where this FT is? and on your pictures for the bolt dis-assembly.. how to take off the back cap ... I could do it on my vic but can't figure this one out
as acabello said, make sure your marker is aired off and dischared (otherwise the engine will shoot out the back) and then under the fangs on the back will be a button that you push upwards to lift the release latch. if you want to remove the backcap entirely to service the shuttle valve, you'll notice a small hole on the top of the bolt cap. It's an access hole for a small button beneath that holds the backcap in place. Make sure your finger is over the latch on the bottom as it'll go flying if you don't.

FT screw is on the back of the body. It's the smallest silver screw, third over from the left (the one that lines up with the vent)

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yep... million percent sure it's from the vent port. nothing from back cap. nothing from feedneck. i put my finger over the port when i initially air up, and yes, with the marker off, and the hiss stops. take finger off.. hiss is back. I fire 2-3 times hiss is gone
try the outter can oring (stretched 017)

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Good call

Just added a small leak guide. I'll be adding to it once I'm out of class
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:12 PM #19
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When you bottom out your tank, will the Vapor vent the remaining air down the barrel or did I just spring a leak? Ive got no more air to check.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:20 PM #20
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When you bottom out your tank, will the Vapor vent the remaining air down the barrel or did I just spring a leak? Ive got no more air to check.
...bottom out your tank?

sorry, never heard that term
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:05 AM #21
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I believe he means, if you shoot your tank dry, some markers will vent the remaining air in your tank if there is not enough pressure, some purge at the ASA, others may purge down the line at the solenoid.



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