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Old 06-26-2012, 03:20 PM #22
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So you're denying because youve had the self control not to do it that it doesn't exist in the world? And while you might not need a religion to tell you this, even if we work on the premises that Islam was created by Muhammad to implement his personal view of life, the reason that tye issue of modesty is addressed by him is because the problem consisted in the first place. People did need, at one point, a religion to tell them not to do bad things, and for the most part we need them today.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:24 PM #23
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Originally Posted by SupraSuper View Post
So you're denying because youve had the self control not to do it that it doesn't exist in the world? And while you might not need a religion to tell you this, even if we work on the premises that Islam was created by Muhammad to implement his personal view of life, the reason that tye issue of modesty is addressed by him is because the problem consisted in the first place. People did need, at one point, a religion to tell them not to do bad things, and for the most part we need them today.
Rape certainly exists in the world but it's rarely about sex and the clothes she's wearing.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:26 PM #24
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I agree it's not always about it, but to say it's not about sex is pretty baseless. Did you derive that opinion from some type of statistic or study?
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:28 PM #25
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One example.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/3812897
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:48 PM #26
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You've taken the argument about rape to another level that I did not intend it to go to. What one study says about rape does not negate the thousands that say otherwise. Either way, this topic is about hijab, the reasons for its implementation in Islam, and the importance of modesty for both men and women.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:51 PM #27
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You've taken the argument about rape to another level that I did not intend it to go to. What one study says about rape does not negate the thousands that say otherwise. Either way, this topic is about hijab, the reasons for its implementation in Islam, and the importance of modesty for both men and women.
You didn't even read the first and I'm supposed to continue on?

The reason for its implementation in Islam is to prevent rape due to immodest exposure of a female. I've just pointed out that rape largely isn't about immodest exposure of females but of the violent assertion of control and dominance over females. Thus the hijab is the wrong tool for the job.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:59 PM #28
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1) Do you want me to post thousands of studies that says it is about sex? You posted me one study that admits it's a critical evaluation of the norm. Stop acting like you proved anything.

2) The reason for hijab is to not only protect her from harassment (in which rape is the absolute most extreme case), but to show people that her virtues and worth in this world go far beyond what her body looks like. She has a personality and a brain, and that's what comes first when you interact with her. "Preventing rape" is an extreme situation that doesn't really have any application, except in, well, extreme cases.

You have a foundational and basic misunderstanding of the religion of Islam from most aspects ranging from the basics like hijab to the nature of the Prophet Muhammad. I really suggest you read the Qur'an, slowly and carefully and in it's entirety, and subsequently supporting Hadith and narratives. I feel like I'm seriously wasting my time trying to argue whether or not the 2nd largest and fastest growing religion in the world that once dominated the largest civilizations on earth allows men to rape women.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:03 PM #29
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1) Do you want me to post thousands of studies that says it is about sex? You posted me one study that admits it's a critical evaluation of the norm. Stop acting like you proved anything.

2) The reason for hijab is to not only protect her from harassment (in which rape is the absolute most extreme case), but to show people that her virtues and worth in this world go far beyond what her body looks like. She has a personality and a brain, and that's what comes first when you interact with her. "Preventing rape" is an extreme situation that doesn't really have any application, except in, well, extreme cases.

You have a foundational and basic misunderstanding of the religion of Islam from most aspects ranging from the basics like hijab to the nature of the Prophet Muhammad. I really suggest you read the Qur'an, slowly and carefully and in it's entirety, and subsequently supporting Hadith and narratives.
The author quotes at least 20 studies in the first two pages, the study is an overview of the debate about rape and how it progressed in time. Please do post the thousands of studies you have.

Why is it unnecessary for men to cover? Do they not have virtues, morals and that go far beyond what their body looks like?
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:11 PM #30
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This is why you need to understand Islam before you make statements about it. Both men and women have "awrah" which is generally defined as areas of the body that need to be covered. When I visited Egypt I got a lot of stares for simply wearing shorts, after which I realized that absolutely no male's wear them and stopped wearing them altogether while I was there.

"Some other psychologists believe that rape is caused by a sexual addiction."

"According to some sociologists, it is sexual permissiveness that causes rape. In societies that are more sexually permissive, men take rejection from women personally which results in severe frustration which forces them to rape women."

It took me 2 seconds of googling to find thousands of articles that support my view. I'm not wasting my time proving the obvious. The study you posted admits to taking the "feminist approach" to rape which says males do it for dominance. The feminist study also is the least credible since it's derived from a group of females with obvious agendas. Like I said, the situation is extremely complex, and you're sitting here trying to act like you have it pin pointed. Your entire argument is baseless anyway because you still don't understand the main reason for hijab is not to protect a woman from rape, that is an extreme case.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:17 PM #31
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Nice citations and men have full body coverings? Seems a bit unfair if you ask me. What's to stop a gay man from raping another man due to his extreme sexual attraction? Men should be modest to prevent rape.

Oh noes, teh womens has rights over there, clearly we should throw out their side of the issue. If it didn't hold water, it wouldn't be debated in journals.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:17 PM #32
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doesn't try to pretend that they don't exist like the liberals of today.
Nobody's pretending people don't have urges. Most people are more than capable of controlling them, whereas Islam apparently takes the lowest view possible in that we're entirely incapable.

A woman shouldn't have to change the way she dresses because I "can't" control myself. I am more than capable of controlling myself, and the idea that women need to accommodate men's urges is a relic of a lower society.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:21 PM #33
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Holy crap, again, hijabs function is not solely to prevent rape. Why can you guys not comprehend this?

A relic of a lower society is one which denies obvious factors which harm the rights of women while at the same time openly and willingly perpetuates the degradation of women to the point that 10 year old girls are starving themselves to death
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:24 PM #34
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Did he just talk about the hijab preventing the harming the rights women?

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Old 06-26-2012, 04:26 PM #35
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openly and willingly perpetuates the degradation of women to the point that 10 year old girls are starving themselves to death
What you call degradation I call freedom of choice. I won't deny that there are societal factors at play, but where I live women will always be free to choose what they wear. If they want to dress scandalously it is THEIR choice. If they want to dress nicely it is THEIR choice. If they want to go goth or emo or whatever it is THEIR choice. If they want to wear a Hijab it is is THEIR choice.

The only position that is degrading in this conversation is that which removes a person's ability to act according to their own will.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:31 PM #36
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Part of what defines humanity is our ability to make out own decisions. If women want to wear ****tly little outfits, that's their right. Anyone who thinks women shouldn't have the ability to dress themselves doesn't belong in a modern society.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:31 PM #37
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I 100% agree with you that it's their choice . I never said I think women should be forced to wear hijab. Islam say's we can't force women to wear it (my own mother or sisters don't wear it). But I definitely think it's better for the woman if she wears it. I think a better society would be one in which the societal factors push a woman more towards dressing modestly than factors which push women to dress like prostitutes.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:32 PM #38
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I 100% agree with you that it's their choice . I never said I think women should be forced to wear hijab. Islam say's we can't force women to wear it (my own mother or sisters don't wear it). But I definitely think it's better for the woman if she wears it.
Where do you live?
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:37 PM #39
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My family is originally from Egypt but I'm from New Jersey. Within my family, it's a giant jumble of my aunts and cousins who wear hijab and who don't. For the most part it's definitely led me to believe a woman turns out better when she wears it, considering most of my cousins who don't wear it are ****ed up in a number of ways (my one sister, actually just had a baby to a man she's not married to) while the ones who do wear it have their masters and Ph.D's. There are obviously a number of exceptions but in my family this is the general trend I noticed. There are also girls who wear hijab who I know and am friends with who are actually big whores, but for the most part I feel safe speaking in generalities.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their..." {Qur'an 24:30-31}

Btw, bosoms means chest. Not hair. Their is one verse in the Qur'an that commands believing women to draw their "khimars" over their hair when traveling so they are not harassed.

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59)
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:38 PM #40
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I 100% agree with you that it's their choice . I never said I think women should be forced to wear hijab. Islam say's we can't force women to wear it (my own mother or sisters don't wear it). But I definitely think it's better for the woman if she wears it. I think a better society would be one in which the societal factors push a woman more towards dressing modestly than factors which push women to dress like prostitutes.
None of the women I know dress like prostitues, feel no pressure to dress like prostitutes, and they do so of their own volition.

Which do you think is more coercive: threatening damnation/punishment or at least religious condemnation, or societal pressures? Perhaps unlike you I find coercion the most demeaning act, and looking down at a woman for how she dresses is a very strong act of coercion.
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:50 PM #41
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So the women you know dress modestly, you'd say? Good for them! Happy to hear they don't dress like prostitutes.

What's more coercive? Well, societal pressures are enough to make 10 year old girls starve themselves to death, get hammered drunk and have sex with random guys, and have babies at the age of 14. So what's more coercive? I wouldn't say one is more than the other, they both are in their own distinct ways. I have tons of female relatives and friends who feel they dress modestly enough where they don't need hijab. I don't advocate coercing anyone to do anything.
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:01 PM #42
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I have tons of female relatives and friends who feel they dress modestly enough where they don't need hijab. I don't advocate coercing anyone to do anything.
Then why aren't you objecting to this guy?

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Hijab is an obligation and a necessity for every Muslim woman
In order to protect them from any harm or assault
Veiled women that encourages you to respect them
Women dressed in scandalous
Extremists
Encourages you to abuse her
Regardless of the laws
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