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Old 06-21-2012, 05:06 PM #64
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robotOninja,

Just which side are you in favor of? On one hand you comment on
how much Nerfs cost and the next you're knocking D-Day because
they don't allow them???

The fact D-Day's attendence was off this year has little to do with
how we kill tanks and more to do with the economy, gas prices and
the fact that it's in Wyandotte, Oklahoma and not Chicago or in
the Northeast.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:21 PM #65
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im saying nerfs are expensive so most people shooting them dont just lob hundreds of them at a tank to get it out. im trying to give nerf operators more credit than they are getting on this thread. so i am in favor of nerfs.

i was not saying not shooting nerfs is the reason attendance was down. Im saying that "the number one scenario" may not be so number one anymore. yes, dday still has higher attendance than any but its going down and others are going up. i hear so many people saying they are never going back or going there for many reasons and one of those reasons is the way the tanks and at guys are handled. at guys are treated like crap and tanks are treated like gods. im just pointing out that people may be willing to sacrifice and spend the extra gas money to go if dday didnt have such weird rules.

once again, nobody is backing up the fact they they banned nerfs for "insurance" reasons.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:51 PM #66
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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
and as for nerfs being easier to hit tanks with. you people have obviously never fired a nerf launcher nor payed for the rockets. the rockets average $4 a piece. like the other guy said before, 30% find rate is good. so if you go into a game with 100 rockets and come back with 30, you just lost $280. also, these things have so much kick its ridiculous. so people dont just sit back and lob rockets all day unless they have very very deep pockets.
I have both and play both. Have you? Also, do you fully understand the rules for marker-in-a-tube AT at OK D-Day?

Personally, I think MIAT is more challenging. Nerf launchers have enough more range than markers that nerf AT can sit outside the range of a tank's markers and shoot. Shooting at a small target on a tank that is shooting back at you is a whole different prospect.

I have never taken more than 20 nerfs on the field with me at any time. Then again, I find 80% of mine. Losing them is just a cost of playing AT. It is always less expensive for me than shooting a case of regular paint per day (although I do carry both).

Quote:
Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
ione of those reasons is the way the tanks and at guys are handled. at guys are treated like crap and tanks are treated like gods.
Each year both sides fill all allowed AT slots. In fact, the number of MIAT had to be capped. Since Zeke and I are heavily involved in German AT, one of us would have heard AT players complaining that they are not treated well. I haven't heard any complaints. I had two new AT guys with me this year. One guy didn't like it, but that had nothing to do with the rules. He just would rather shoot infantry. No big deal; we all have things we like more than others. The other is busy building his own AT tube for use in games in the future. AT is something you either love or hate.

BTW, several fields in the southwest are going to MIAT. Bailey's field in MO did before Bill closed it (because his friend and air expert was killed in a car wreck), and DFWAP allows MIAT and nerf. A mix is actually pretty good fun.

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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
once again, nobody is backing up the fact they they banned nerfs for "insurance" reasons.
*raises hand* "I know teach, I know the answer to that."

An idiot used a wooden dowel in a nerf launcher at D-Day one year. Would you want to take that in your temple or back of your head in case that player's aim is as bad as his judgment? How about a tanker losing a window to that?

@ Boom Master. Some of the land the field is played on is Indian land, not all of it. The insurance carrier is in the U.S. and covers all areas of the field.

custar
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:39 AM #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by custar View Post

*raises hand* "I know teach, I know the answer to that."

An idiot used a wooden dowel in a nerf launcher at D-Day one year. Would you want to take that in your temple or back of your head in case that player's aim is as bad as his judgment? How about a tanker losing a window to that?
I've never been to this game but thought about it a bit, might get there one day. This argument, or line of thinking just seems off to me and I'm not attacking you, just the thought process that went into banning proper, nerf shooting laws. Can't you put what ever you want down the barrel of a regular marker? If so wouldn't that be dangerous? But we can still use them.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:52 AM #68
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Originally Posted by wdkrobsmith View Post
I've never been to this game but thought about it a bit, might get there one day. This argument, or line of thinking just seems off to me and I'm not attacking you, just the thought process that went into banning proper, nerf shooting laws. Can't you put what ever you want down the barrel of a regular marker? If so wouldn't that be dangerous? But we can still use them.
No problem with a civil discussion. Idiots can and have put marbles in markers and shot them. Ditto with frozen paintballs. While dangerous, I don't think those are as dangerous as a wood dowel shot out of a nerf launcher if for no other reason than the differences between the two in mass. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It is easier to play paintball replacing nerf with MIAT AT than in finding a replacement for regular paintball markers.

BTW, my unit had a guy from Jersey this year. I think he enjoyed it because he said he is coming back next year.

custar
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:57 AM #69
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Originally Posted by custar View Post
I have both and play both. Have you? Also, do you fully understand the rules for marker-in-a-tube AT at OK D-Day?

Personally, I think MIAT is more challenging. Nerf launchers have enough more range than markers that nerf AT can sit outside the range of a tank's markers and shoot. Shooting at a small target on a tank that is shooting back at you is a whole different prospect.

I have never taken more than 20 nerfs on the field with me at any time. Then again, I find 80% of mine. Losing them is just a cost of playing AT. It is always less expensive for me than shooting a case of regular paint per day (although I do carry both).



Each year both sides fill all allowed AT slots. In fact, the number of MIAT had to be capped. Since Zeke and I are heavily involved in German AT, one of us would have heard AT players complaining that they are not treated well. I haven't heard any complaints. I had two new AT guys with me this year. One guy didn't like it, but that had nothing to do with the rules. He just would rather shoot infantry. No big deal; we all have things we like more than others. The other is busy building his own AT tube for use in games in the future. AT is something you either love or hate.

BTW, several fields in the southwest are going to MIAT. Bailey's field in MO did before Bill closed it (because his friend and air expert was killed in a car wreck), and DFWAP allows MIAT and nerf. A mix is actually pretty good fun.



*raises hand* "I know teach, I know the answer to that."

An idiot used a wooden dowel in a nerf launcher at D-Day one year. Would you want to take that in your temple or back of your head in case that player's aim is as bad as his judgment? How about a tanker losing a window to that?

@ Boom Master. Some of the land the field is played on is Indian land, not all of it. The insurance carrier is in the U.S. and covers all areas of the field.

custar
good to hear none of the regulars complain about the at rules. but guess what, not all the at guys in the world go to dday. in fact, im willing to bet a large majority dont. also, almost every scenario i go to has and meets an at cap or else it would be unfair to tanks (that doesnt mean im taking back what i said about dday at guys and how they are treated) and the scenarios you named are not well known. if you have the same rules for MIAT and nerfs, im willing to bet its a lot harder to hit a 2 in square with a nerf than it is a MIAT. comparing MIAT only being allowed to shoot tiny squares on tanks and nerfs being able to hit any part of the tank is comparing apples to oranges. and you are the overwhelming minority in nerf usage and find rate.

and yes, ive heard the story about the wooden nerf. sounds almost as believable as someone freezing their paintballs. and yet dday and its producer and the parks owner have yet to say who their insurance company, because none of paintball's insurance companies ban nerfs. and dont you think if they would ban them from dday, they would do that to all the fields and scenarios the company insures? and idk if youve ever been shot by a nerf at 230 fps, but take that to the temple and it could knock you out. and doesnt dday only allow mesh for windows? i mean its not like tankers make these things to withstand heavy impact or something

EDIT: just read your comment about frozen paintballs. you have officially lost all credibility
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:54 AM #70
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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
good to hear none of the regulars complain about the at rules. but guess what, not all the at guys in the world go to dday. in fact, im willing to bet a large majority dont.
And your point is . . . ? Not all the paintball players in the world play at D-Day, so it only follows that not all paintball AT players go to OK D-Day. However, enough do each year to fill all available slots.

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(that doesnt mean im taking back what i said about dday at guys and how they are treated) and the scenarios you named are not well known.
Exactly how are the AT at D-Day treated badly? Everyone who plays AT at the game does so voluntarily, and the vast majority return in that role year after year. Do you have any particular examples of AT players complaining about how they were treated? If so, please direct them my way and I will do what I can to remedy their situation. If not, you are merely talking out of your butt.

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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
if you have the same rules for MIAT and nerfs, im willing to bet its a lot harder to hit a 2 in square with a nerf than it is a MIAT. comparing MIAT only being allowed to shoot tiny squares on tanks and nerfs being able to hit any part of the tank is comparing apples to oranges.
Again, what is your point with this statement? It would definitely be harder to hit a 2" square with a nerf. Which game requires that?

Of course it is different playing MIAT versus nerf. Who has stated otherwise? If you have a point in stating the obvious and uncontested, run with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
and you are the overwhelming minority in nerf usage and find rate.
I guess I am just good at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
and yes, ive heard the story about the wooden nerf. sounds almost as believable as someone freezing their paintballs.
Your belief or lack of belief in whether a dipstick shot a wooden dowel or not is unimportant and irrelevant. It happened, sadly. To my knowledge, no one at OK D-Day has frozen their paintballs. That would be difficult in the heat of Oklahoma in June in any event.

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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
and yet dday and its producer and the parks owner have yet to say who their insurance company, because none of paintball's insurance companies ban nerfs.
If it interests you that much, go to www.ddayadventurepark.com and ask them in person. If they don't give you an answer you like, don't go to the game.

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and idk if youve ever been shot by a nerf at 230 fps, but take that to the temple and it could knock you out.
Yes, I have been shot by a nerf at 230 fps or thereabouts but not in the temple. I doubt it would knock me out if it hit me in the temple, but I suppose it is possible. I would MUCH rather take a nerf round at 230 fps to my temple or lens than a wooden dowel at 230 fps. Which would you prefer to be hit by?

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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
and doesnt dday only allow mesh for windows? i mean its not like tankers make these things to withstand heavy impact or something
Commercially-produced screening sufficient to stop paintballs at normal speeds is required over all windows. That is part and parcel of allowing only MIAT. If nerf was allowed, safety measures would have to be altered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
EDIT: just read your comment about frozen paintballs. you have officially lost all credibility
The needle on my care-o-meter didn't move when I read that. It stayed at zero. Therefore, your opinion officially has no value.

So, we understand that you want to use nerf. Power to you. If you don't want to use MIAT, don't play AT or don't come to the event. Those at the event will do their best to soldier on without you. With that settled, what is your purpose in continuing this discussion here?

custar
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:31 AM #71
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I agree with Custer, till you've been to D-Day and had an
opportunity to actually see what goes on there, don't try
and suggest one method is better than another. Just ask
anyone in our 899th Blackcats what they think, since they
spend lots of time chasing down and eliminating German
tanks.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:14 PM #72
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No problem with a civil discussion.
Civil is the key word. lol
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:27 PM #73
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1.And your point is . . . ? Not all the paintball players in the world play at D-Day, so it only follows that not all paintball AT players go to OK D-Day. However, enough do each year to fill all available slots.



2.Exactly how are the AT at D-Day treated badly? Everyone who plays AT at the game does so voluntarily, and the vast majority return in that role year after year. Do you have any particular examples of AT players complaining about how they were treated? If so, please direct them my way and I will do what I can to remedy their situation. If not, you are merely talking out of your butt.



3.Again, what is your point with this statement? It would definitely be harder to hit a 2" square with a nerf. Which game requires that?

4.Of course it is different playing MIAT versus nerf. Who has stated otherwise? If you have a point in stating the obvious and uncontested, run with it.



I guess I am just good at that.



5.Your belief or lack of belief in whether a dipstick shot a wooden dowel or not is unimportant and irrelevant. It happened, sadly. To my knowledge, no one at OK D-Day has frozen their paintballs. That would be difficult in the heat of Oklahoma in June in any event.



If it interests you that much, go to www.ddayadventurepark.com and ask them in person. If they don't give you an answer you like, don't go to the game.



6.Yes, I have been shot by a nerf at 230 fps or thereabouts but not in the temple. I doubt it would knock me out if it hit me in the temple, but I suppose it is possible. I would MUCH rather take a nerf round at 230 fps to my temple or lens than a wooden dowel at 230 fps. Which would you prefer to be hit by?



7.Commercially-produced screening sufficient to stop paintballs at normal speeds is required over all windows. That is part and parcel of allowing only MIAT. If nerf was allowed, safety measures would have to be altered.



8.The needle on my care-o-meter didn't move when I read that. It stayed at zero. Therefore, your opinion officially has no value.

So, we understand that you want to use nerf. Power to you. If you don't want to use MIAT, don't play AT or don't come to the event. Those at the event will do their best to soldier on without you. With that settled, what is your purpose in continuing this discussion here?

custar
1.Im saying that majority of at guys are nerf players and dont play at dday. One of the main reasons is because they dont use nerfs. My point is that youre saying no one complains about the rules. Well youre wrong, many many many at guys do. And they are the ones not going.

2.I dont have a specific example. Im talking about the rules and how paintball tanks have to change little or nothing on their tank to attend. At guys have to change their entire setup to be an at guy for the dday event.

3.Youre sitting there trying to bash nerf players saying it takes no skill to just lob rockets across the field out of paintball range and that it takes much more skill to hit a 2 inch target on the side with a paintball. Well thats obviousm, but considering most scenarios i go to dont allow you to just lob nerfs across the field and hope you hit something, your comparison holds no value to the argument. Im not going to get super detailed but my at guys on my team have to get a ref (which attracts a lot of attention) set up, and take an accurate shot at a tank with a kill spot on it. Considering theres not usually a clear shot outside of the tanks range, this takes a lot of skill. So yes, lobbing random rockets across the field is pretty easy, but what tank is gonna call themselves out? last time i check, its almost impossible to tell your tank was hit from the inside.

4.See answer to 3.

5.its pretty relevant actually considering the story came out of no where and was only posted by themselves on the website. There was absolutely no discussion on the internet about at all, yet so many people swear it happened. Just seems like a made up story so dday producers can make more money by making at guys buy separate paint.
And itd be pretty difficult to freeze paintballs for any event since you cant freeze paintballs with ordinary means since the paints freezing point is so low. Frozen paintballs is a myth/urban legend. They dont exist and anyone who says they have or known someone whos done it is an idiot and has never actually seen what a "frozen" paintball looks like when being shot out of a paintball gun. It just turns your hopper and breech into a blender.

6.I would prefer the nerf, but it can still knock you out considering people can be knocked out by an object that transfers 13 joules of energy if hit in the temple by it. (13 joules is the amount of energy transferred by a paintball)

7.You do realize that people who make paintball tanks dont only make them for dday. they bring them to many events. most of which use nerfs. im willing to bet every single tank at dday can withstand and was made to withstand shots by nerfs

8.

Youre the one that tried to counter my points so youre just as guilty continuing the discussion as i am
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:50 PM #74
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This thread makes me giggle, and i've been slacking.

I've done both Nerf and MiaT style anti tank. Frankly, I love them both, because both ways are FUN.
Running with my Pump MiaT, I feel like a Ninja, and when I had my Nerf Launcher, I felt like a walking incarnation of Duke Nukem.

This whole argument reminds me of Mac vs PC arguments. Noones going to win. Most D-Dayers enjoy MiaT, some enjoy both.

And BTW. Real Anti-Tank Players will do any method and not whine, cause we are in it to eliminate tanks.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:41 AM #75
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1.Im saying that majority of at guys are nerf players and dont play at dday. One of the main reasons is because they dont use nerfs. My point is that youre saying no one complains about the rules. Well youre wrong, many many many at guys do. And they are the ones not going.
Ah, those who don't attend complain. How many have actually tried MIAT? You still haven't posted whether you have, so until you have tried both at a sizeable event, you really don't know what you are talking about.

Beyond, I still respond, "So what?" It is their choice to attend or not; the loss is theirs. If they can't afford an Automag or Mini and some PVC to make a MIAT, perhaps they should consider whether they can attend D-Day at all.

Better, let's do some math with numbers you posted. You posted that it is easy to lose $280.00 worth of nerf rockets in a day. You can pick up a used Automag with an RT-derived valve or a Mini for $200.00 or less. Add PVC, spray paint, and twenty ten-round tubes, and the cost is still quite a bit less than the $280.00 figure you posted. As a bonus, you can keep the marker, tube, and 10-round tubes; they aren't lost and can be used again.

So again, AT is filling every year at OK D-Day. If guys who want to play only nerf and not try another style decide to stay home, that is their choice. Attendance of AT is not affecting D-Day numbers to any appreciable degree.

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2.I dont have a specific example. Im talking about the rules and how paintball tanks have to change little or nothing on their tank to attend. At guys have to change their entire setup to be an at guy for the dday event.
See above. I use my same vest and same pod holders regardless of which style I play. MY nerf launcher and MIAT are interchangeable though I do admit I use my MIAT in my right hand and nerf launcher lefty so I guess that is a change. Technically, a change I guess. My Phenom will be on the opposite side, so I guess that is another change.

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Originally Posted by robot0ninja View Post
3.Youre sitting there trying to bash nerf players saying it takes no skill to just lob rockets across the field out of paintball range and that it takes much more skill to hit a 2 inch target on the side with a paintball. Well thats obviousm, but considering most scenarios i go to dont allow you to just lob nerfs across the field and hope you hit something, your comparison holds no value to the argument. Im not going to get super detailed but my at guys on my team have to get a ref (which attracts a lot of attention) set up, and take an accurate shot at a tank with a kill spot on it. Considering theres not usually a clear shot outside of the tanks range, this takes a lot of skill. So yes, lobbing random rockets across the field is pretty easy, but what tank is gonna call themselves out? last time i check, its almost impossible to tell your tank was hit from the inside.
Since I also play nerf at some games, why in the world would I bash fellow nerf players? As I posted earlier, each requires a different skill set.

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5.its pretty relevant actually considering the story came out of no where and was only posted by themselves on the website. There was absolutely no discussion on the internet about at all, yet so many people swear it happened. Just seems like a made up story so dday producers can make more money by making at guys buy separate paint.
Nope, your belief or lack thereof is irrelevant. I was on the phone tonight with one of the guys who witnessed it. Now, consider this. AT players are allowed a whole 200 rounds of AT paint for the full day. Do you really think that the field promoter is making the MIAT requirement to sell 8.5 cases of AT paint that he has to specially order in a different color for a game that deals in skids of paint?

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7.You do realize that people who make paintball tanks dont only make them for dday. they bring them to many events. most of which use nerfs. im willing to bet every single tank at dday can withstand and was made to withstand shots by nerfs
Why, yes I do realize that since I own a paintball tank and my team regularly fields two others at nerf and MIAT events. They protect the gunners with expanded metal screen which would hold up to nerfs quite nicely.

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8.
You clearly missed my point.

Once more, we understand that you want to use nerf. Power to you. If you don't want to use MIAT, don't play AT or don't come to the event. Those at the event will do their best to soldier on without you. With that settled, what is your purpose in continuing this discussion here?

custar

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Old 06-23-2012, 08:22 AM #76
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@ Boom Master. Some of the land the field is played on is Indian land, not all of it. The insurance carrier is in the U.S. and covers all areas of the field.
I've been asking this question for 7 years. The name of the only insurance company in the USA that doesn't allow nerfs to be used on a paintball field is????

Until I get and confirm the answer, I stand by my statement.

You all just decide where to spend your paintball dollars. If you want to use Nerfs, play somewhere else. He can and does run his field any way he wants.

FYI, historically Bill Bailey has been the greatest influence on D Day rules. He was the Producer for Tour of Duty which he no longer produces. The paintball anti tank weapons were originally a Tour of Duty change and debugged and refined before it was adopted by D Day. Bill was the German General for years at OK D Day and greatly influenced the rules we have today.

He was on the record justifying the marker only anti tank weapons by stating: "Paintball should be just about paintball."

Another factor at Tour of Duty and more so at D Day was the appearance of home made Nerf launchers in QUANITY at the games. Safety Inspecting them became a logistical problem as well as a liability issue. If you inspect it and it malfunctions do you have more or less liability than if you don't inspect them at all? It would take a court case to decide that one. So it was just easier to ban home made launchers and blame the insurance company.

Remember, they originally banned home made Nerf Launchers and not Nerfs. They could be used in 'commercially made' launchers. At the time, only one manufacturer was available to purchase one from.

The now defunct MXS started the Dowel rod / stick from a RPG myth.
Also, the myth that if the bulb comes off the shaft of a Nerf that it becomes a dart which is impossible. So is this dowel rod at D Day just a retelling of that myth..? Does ANYONE have first hand knowledge of the D Day dowel rod story.

Somebody put a 12" and 3/4" diameter dowel rod in their RPG and let us know how far it goes. Like 5 feet maybe?

If somebody gets stupid, just arrest them and prosecute them. This mentality is like banning cars because somebody used one to run his ex over.
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:53 AM #77
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Does ANYONE have first hand knowledge of the D Day dowel rod story.
Spartacus.

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The name of the only insurance company in the USA that doesn't allow nerfs to be used on a paintball field is????
I don't know the name of the carrier, but the agent's name is Larry. I understand the same carrier carries insurance on most events at the D-Day park.

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You all just decide where to spend your paintball dollars. If you want to use Nerfs, play somewhere else. He can and does run his field any way he wants.
That is the point I have been trying to get robotninja to understand.

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FYI, historically Bill Bailey has been the greatest influence on D Day rules.
It was a dark day when Bill closed his field.

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Another factor at Tour of Duty and more so at D Day was the appearance of home made Nerf launchers in QUANITY at the games. Safety Inspecting them became a logistical problem as well as a liability issue. If you inspect it and it malfunctions do you have more or less liability than if you don't inspect them at all? It would take a court case to decide that one. So it was just easier to ban home made launchers and blame the insurance company.
If that was not a factor in the decision, it should have been. That is part of the reason Viper doesn't generally allow homemade nerf launchers, isn't it?

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If somebody gets stupid, just arrest them and prosecute them. This mentality is like banning cars because somebody used one to run his ex over.
I generally agree with this approach, but I am not going to fault a field owner for erring on the side of safety first when there is an acceptable alternative. Having played both, I am fine with either. Heck, at the last We Were Soldiers at DFWAP, MIAT and nerf were both allowed, and that worked fine so the two can co-exist peacefully in the same game.

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Old 06-23-2012, 06:46 PM #78
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Well i can see this is going no where, so lets agree to disagree. Maybe some day I will go to DDay. I just dont want to spend hundreds of dollars going to an event that i feel i most likely will not enjoy. Have fun at DDay as I will at living legends, thats what paintballs about. Sorry for dragging this on.

Id still like to know who their insurance carrier is, but i guess if they wanna keep it a secret they can. its not like i go around shouting out who my auto insurance agent is, lol
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:08 PM #79
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If it is the "Larry" I spoke with, I'd bet lunch that it was NOT the insurance carrier or underwriter, though it MIGHT have been a "suggestion" by the agent.
Frankly, the field should have zero hesitation at naming their insurance carrier and agency. Any hesitation to divulge their carrier or agency is flaky, plain and simple.

From my conversation with "Larry", there is a very scary number of PB fields that run "naked", ie, NO insurance of the proper type, particularly with respect to PB "Tanks" or PAVs.

My research into getting a blanket policy for a PB AFV was 5 large per year, and that covered something like 500 "tank-days" or some such number, basically, X number of tanks on one day, or 1 tank for X number of days, or any integer product of tanks and days less than or equal to the covered amount, and within the agreed upon calendar year. Basically, LLoyds of London has a 5G minimum underwriting policy, and that provided a certain constrained coverage set, I don't know what they use for an algorithm to figure out how may "tank days" are covered. I believe that it worked out to something on the order of a hundred bucks per tank per event day.

Fine, have Spartacus give us the skinny please. It would be somewhat useful to have the story first hand, and to better understand the circumstances.

FWIW, having observed Boom Master's contributions to this community over the last couple of years, I tend to trust his input. We have haggled over a few engineering details, but overall, his contributions tend to be on target and verifiable. My personal preference is NERFs all the way, but I do concede certain game balance arguments that Mr. Dorai and I discussed (at length) that favor MiaT policies. At this point, I still favor NERFs, and will (as Boom Master has stated numerous times) elect to vote with my wallet as to which fields I will participate in based on my preferences.

I think both custar and robot0ninja presented some valid points, the best one being that they would have to agree to disagree. I hope we can avoid turning this into a flame war.

I think the only remaining loose end that is NOT subject to "Ford VS Chevy" arguments is the UN-answered question regarding proper insurance coverage, and the name of the carrier.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:53 PM #80
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If it is the "Larry" I spoke with, I'd bet lunch that it was NOT the insurance carrier or underwriter, though it MIGHT have been a "suggestion" by the agent.
Frankly, the field should have zero hesitation at naming their insurance carrier and agency. Any hesitation to divulge their carrier or agency is flaky, plain and simple.

From my conversation with "Larry", there is a very scary number of PB fields that run "naked", ie, NO insurance of the proper type, particularly with respect to PB "Tanks" or PAVs.
You may be entirely correct about Larry. I agree that there are more fields than players know running naked.

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Fine, have Spartacus give us the skinny please. It would be somewhat useful to have the story first hand, and to better understand the circumstances.
Contact him on the D-Day forum. He does not post here to my knowledge.

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I think both custar and robot0ninja presented some valid points, the best one being that they would have to agree to disagree. I hope we can avoid turning this into a flame war.
No flame war. Grown ups can disagree as we did. If we all agreed, it would be a boring world.

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I think the only remaining loose end that is NOT subject to "Ford VS Chevy" arguments is the UN-answered question regarding proper insurance coverage, and the name of the carrier.
Aaarggghhh. You were actually talking to Larry and didn't ask? Do you know how to contact him again? If not, you can bounce over to the DD forum and ask there. The Game Coordinator and Game Director both post there fairly regularly.

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Old 06-24-2012, 10:04 AM #81
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My purpose in talking with Larry had nothing to do with D-day. I was searching for an insurance carrier for my intended PB Tank, and how it might apply to the PB Tanks I had access to. D-Day and other major events were not a direct topic of discussion. The conversation took place quite some time ago, maybe a year.

Regardless, the valid question is something like: What is the name of the insurance carrier and agent that "banned" the use of Nerfs, if indeed they did. Also, Was the event actually insured properly? Again, names please.

I think these last two issues are core issues with respect to your verbal sparring with robot0ninja, and address Boom's query as well.

Regarding Spartacus, no, this was not my article for or against a topic. If you wish to use Spartacus as evidence, then provide suitable links to appropriate threads. I have plenty of things to do research on for my own projects. Not trying to be a snit, just putting the burden of proof back on you. You provide the links, and I am willing to review it. Don't ask me to sign up for yet another web forum, and then learn their structure, and then search their forums for something I am not even sure what I am looking for...

BTW, I agree with your sentiment regarding a boring world. Unfortunately, even grownups often get "childish" when they let their angst override their civility. A vigorous disagreement played out with proper civility is quite refreshing at times, regardless of the final score, and it is even better when one or more parties involved actually learn something constructive from the contest.

Anyway, I kinda think I like both you and robot0ninja as community contributors, even if we probably won't agree on several topics.

HAND (Have A Nice Day)
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:54 AM #82
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EUREKA!!!! OK D-Day uses CIA Cossio Insurance Agency.

Straight from the horses mouth, Dewayne Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSncFg_AQJA

Just want to share some info about Larry Cossio. I believe I have to eat some crow now or something. Anybody remember? I'm getting old.... Maybe something about doubting he carrys insurance at all. Well since 1997 according to the video.

He has his share of litigation history being plaintif and defendant. All are civil business relationship litigation rather non payment of claims.

He has been involved in the paintball business as well as the insurance industry. Owned a field. Owned the National Paintball League. Owned a distributorship. Patented a barrel plug to be ATSM compliant which was the ONLY one made that said it was. Oh, and by the way, he was/is on the ASTM paintball committee that published those standards... He and Bud Orr of Wargames Products who has been quoted that he will never manufacture a full auto marker was responsible for banning full auto markers at rec fields insured by Cossio Insurance Agency.

Well fine, he can do that to reduce his exposure to claims if he wants to. However, it doesn't sit well with me. You decide for yourself.

Most of my local rec fields do not allow full auto modes because they don't want the players beating up on the newbies. If they don't have a good time, they won't take up the sport... Bad for business... Self regulating. If I do want to play with the big guns, I know which field to go to... Fortunately, I have a choice where to play locally.


Now the question simply is:

Does his policy prohibit the use of Nerfs or not? Since he allegedly covers over 50% of the fields in this country, SOMEBODY should know.


OR


Does his policy refer to the "ASTM F1777 - 12" "Standard Practice for Paintball Field Operation" as a requirement.

I declined to pay $39 for a 3 page document. Anybody already got one that you could review for us to see what it says or does not say about using Nerfs or other alternative projectiles....
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:39 PM #83
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Having used nerfs plenty of times, I can see the concerns involved. While they are my favorite to use, I would give the MIATs a try. One thought I had was, how does any ref tell a tank has been with with all the other paint crapping up the rest of the tank?

Either way, both can work.
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:33 PM #84
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Having used nerfs plenty of times, I can see the concerns involved. While they are my favorite to use, I would give the MIATs a try. One thought I had was, how does any ref tell a tank has been with with all the other paint crapping up the rest of the tank?

Either way, both can work.
MIAT is a different color than any other used at the event. Also, referees do not have to be present to adjudicate this. The AT and tanker community is fairly close knit and works together surprisingly well.

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