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Old 09-17-2004, 12:59 AM #22
paintballking174
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[quote]Originally posted by ZeR0 EVOlution

Bolt Design and Air Conservation:
Karni: To get the most out of this system, one must time the gun properly. This is a hastle to do but it is not difficult. It is just like setting the dwell for a normal electro. However, you ALSO have to set the dwell on the gun itself. You can semi-cure the amount of timing needed to the gun by getting the $200+ Nexus kit but it still required timing. You also need a new ram with QEVs and all the like, just more money to spend. Air conservation is fairly decent with around 1400+ shots off a 68/4500 tank.

[Price:
Karni: At PBGear.com, the Karni runs for $1,175. With this you supposedly get the best marker on the market. You also have to purchase the Nexus internals and I personally don’t know if they come with QEVs but if not, you have to get those too. That’s a lot of money to spend for the best gun on the market. [quote]

ok, for starters timing the karnivor and e-cockers in general is fairly simple, it takes one finger and 4 buttons to do so, 40 seconds tops if you if your dumb enough that you cant understand what the LED is saying. you dont have to set the dwell, just 5 simple electronic timing features, SON, COFF, CON, CTO, and CDEL. once agian this is very easy. the nexus kit is totally unnessesary for the karnivor, for it comes stock with parts equal in performance. and getting a nexus kit wouldnt make the already simple task of one-time timing any easier. the karnivor also already comes stock with a good ram with QEVs, TRVs actually, but its the same thing. air efficency is pretty correct though, 1400-1500 of a 68/45.

its not the best marker on the market, and we all know it. the best marker is the eclipse DC2, but lets not get into that right now. like i said earlier, you DO NOT need to buy th nexus kit to make the karni rip. yes the nexus kit comes with 2 qevs. it is a lot of money, and its by far not the best cocker. i applaud you for your efforts, but that review could use some editing. you perhaps should have comparing the trix to e-cockers in general. eclipse makes the pro plus cocker, which is priced at 885 and would be a much better comparison to the trix. i personally dont see much of a reason to get the matrix over the karni which IMO is nicer. but thats just me.

you actually did a very good job on all the other reviews, though i still stand by my statement of them being biased (maybe not quiet so much as i first thought). sorry for sounding like a jack *** earlier, and keep the reviews coming, i anticipate a 05 speed comparision, and i look forward to seeing it. i my even end up becoming a matrix owner in the near future unless i find something better.

on a more personal note, i own a custom e-cocker which cost me about 950. i get about 1400 from a 68/3000 fill, and it is super quiet and has no kick. the accuracy and insane speed only sweeten the deal. i did spend a good deal of time tweaking it to perform that well, but it was worth it. so i guess not everyone gets the same awesome experience from their cockers, but thats only thier loss. you get out of it what you put into it. granted, i have used a trix before, and it was 1 or 2 bps faster than my cocker, but on the other hand, that trix chopped a lot, probably broken eyes. oh well, dont really care anymore, and i have better things to do.


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Old 09-17-2004, 02:49 AM #23
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on the karni review. remove the line saying the karni is the top of the line cocker. Also remove any mention of timing. I own a nexus cocker and a dm4(same matinence as a matrix) i spend literaly 10X the time on the dm4 as i do on the cocker. For the cocker i put a little slick honey on the bolt once every few months. THe dm4 i have to do this every few weeks. I love both guns and i used to love my matrix when i had it. Electric cockers do not need to be timed if you dont mess with them.
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Old 09-20-2004, 11:47 PM #24
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a small error on my part, the nexus kit is a little better than the equivalent parts on the karni, but its not worth the money for the small gain in performance that those parts will give you.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:01 AM #25
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Ok lets keep this thread to usefull information thanks to those that posted something usefull instead of this thread is biased and sucks. If you have a honest dispute with one of the post, list you findings and we will try and merge the info.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:17 AM #26
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Trix Vs BKO or B2k? Trix vs 02(and older) Shocker? Trix vs Xmag? This is one of the best VS threads i have read period, GOOD JOB!
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:25 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Coco Savage
Trix Vs BKO or B2k? Trix vs 02(and older) Shocker? Trix vs Xmag? This is one of the best VS threads i have read period, GOOD JOB!
Bko and B2k look at the impulse review, while not the same are close enough that you can figure out what to get. The trix vs 02 shocker and older would be almost totally pointless, theres really no comparison and not many people use those anymore. Idk anything about mags, but you can look at the e-mag review and compare it yourself.
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:25 AM #28
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Ya, bushys are a good match for imps, so look at the imp review. And X-mags are the exact same thing as e-mags, except for lvl 10 and the cool milling. It would be interesting to see the 02 shocker vs matrix... but the trix has all the good traits of the brick, plus a lot more.
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Old 09-22-2004, 10:53 PM #29
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can someone do a Cyborg Vs Trauma Matrix
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Old 09-23-2004, 03:58 AM #30
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You have got to be kidding. Read the damn Matrix vs. Cyborg post! Its right there. A Trauma is no different then a normal LED. God man.
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Old 09-23-2004, 07:53 PM #31
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sorry forgot about it
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:09 PM #32
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Quote:
E-Mag: Emags don't come with eyes, and don't really need them for that matter(see bolt design). Either can be installed if you like though. X-Mags do however; the eye system used is the break beam design similar to that of the Matrix.
Quote:
Personally, I never liked Mags. However, $1000 is a lot of money compared to Matrixes and it doesn’t even come with eyes. I don’t see a point in buying a gun for $1000, whether it be a Matrix or a Mag if it doesn’t have eyes (unless it’s a Tequilla or an Entity because those are some of the rarest guns on the market).
It may just be me, but do I see a little bit of contradiction here? You just get done saying that the E-mags do not necessarially need eyes because of the Level 10 anti-chop system, but then go on to say that a $1,000(+/-) gun isn't worth it if it dosen't have eyes? Do the eyes serve some sort of special purpose that the anti-chop Level 10 bolt (the very same that will not leave so much as a scratch on your tounge, if placed in the breech) dosen't? Yeah, it may take a little more air to power, but if that's why you find eyes superior to the level 10, then say that; rather than implying that a marker that dosen't have any eyes in it (even though the bolt serves the same general purpose) is not worth it.

Always some form of embellishment to make the LCD Matrix better than any other marker out there, eh?
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:25 PM #33
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I didn't write the review. Notice I posted a name next to the review so that you know who did write it up. I'm an eye person. The guys on the Mag forums like Level 10. Its all in the eye of the beholder. Now note that the conclusion is biased because I'm saying which one I like better. Personally, I've never liked Mags. However, someone may own a Matrix and then shoot a Mag, hence ****ting themselves and buying one. Who knows. I just know that I like Matrixes more and the fact that they pinch paint AND come with ACE is more comforting to me then just relying on Level 10 (which when isn't set up correctly can **** up more then it helps).
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Old 10-01-2004, 02:39 AM #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeR0 EVOlution
Matrix vs. Karnivor

Eye System
Karnivore: The Karnivore comes stock with the E-Blade grip frame hence giving it a reflective eye system. The reflective eye works by searching for a paintball by sending a beam through the breech of the gun. If a paintball crosses that beam, the eye system gets an immediate pulse sent back to it to know the gun is ready to fire. However, the reflective eyes have some problems with black paint and on most markers, it has been fixed. Anyhow, the reflective eye must be installed precisely or else it won't work well.

Matrix: The Trix uses break beam eyes, the same ones found on Vikings, Excaliburs, Intimidators (first guns to use the system), Bushmasters, Race Gun trigger frames and now Angels. These eyes are the best ones on the market seeing as how they don't look for a paintball to clear the breech, they just want the beam to break. It first came on the Classic Intimidators and now you can find it in almost any other gun. An excellent system far superior to that of the reflective eye.

Bolt Design and Air Conservation:
Karni: The Karnivore works like an Autococker (considering it is one ) and hence uses the closed bolt operating system. It is stationary in the forward position and when fired, it uses are to project the ball, moves back for a ball to feed and then moves forward back to its normal position. To get the most out of this system, one must time the gun properly. This is a hastle to do but it is not difficult. It is just like setting the dwell for a normal electro. However, you ALSO have to set the dwell on the gun itself. You can semi-cure the amount of timing needed to the gun by getting the $200+ Nexus kit but it still required timing. You also need a new ram with QEVs and all the like, just more money to spend. Air conservation is fairly decent with around 1400+ shots off a 68/4500 tank.

Matrix: The Matrix uses the spool valve bolt system. It is the same system found on the Shocker (the posing marker of the Matrix). The system is very inefficient stock but for $130, you can purchase an Evolve bolt kit and hence up your efficiency ten fold. It is a smart system that was unpopular and now is one of the best on the market. Definitely better then the closed bolt system which cannot fire as fast as a Matrix (registered at 36 CPS) due to its firing system.

Weight:
Karni: The 'Cocker is actually quite light compared to other 'Cockers. It is decently weighed in around 2.7 pounds, not bad. The gun is very light and comes milled down to the bone, a great feature. This gun has one thing I'll give it and that is its weight.

Matrix: The Matrix weighs around 3.4 pounds, give or take a few ounces. The gun however, is never considered heavy in game because you aren't concentrating on what is in your hand, you're looking at what is in front of you. I've never met a Trix owner who cried about its weight, they always say the gun rules and has zero kick. That's the way to do it guys.

LPR:
Karni: Of course the gun has one, it is an Autococker. However, the system that you set it is entirely different from my experience. The gun runs around 100 PSI bolt pressure (it needs to move the back block too, not just the bolt). This isn’t bad but without eyes, you CAN chop. Not a good sign. Luckily, the gun comes with eyes stock but if they ever break, make sure your halo can keep up with you.

Matrix: The Matrix operates roughly around 45 PSI seeing as how it only has one moving part. Without eyes, this is a wonder because it just bounces off paint. No one complains about having an original Gen-E Matrix because of this (they did not have eyes). This is a good sign because it tells you that you won't have many chopping problems with a DYE Matrix since it comes stock with eyes. Kudos for the Matrix.

Price:
Karni: At PBGear.com, the Karni runs for $1,175. With this you supposedly get the best marker on the market. You also have to purchase the Nexus internals and I personally don’t know if they come with QEVs but if not, you have to get those too. That’s a lot of money to spend for the best gun on the market.

Matrix: The DYE Trix at PBGear.com is $825. It comes with everything you need minus the bolt kit. With the stock kit, you’ll get roughly 1000 shots off a 68/4500 tank. For $135, you can get the Evolve bolt kit and that will get you 1750 shots off your 68/4500 tank. That's still plenty less then the Karni.

Conclusion
Just get the Trix. It is cheaper and doesn't need to be timed. It may weigh more but if you complain about that, you need to be hitting the gym, not paintballing.
just a tad bit biased, but that's to be expected ( I wouldn't expect a vs. trhead to be nearly as objective in the cocker forum)

1. eye doesn't need to be "installed precisely" i measured my gun, taped down my template, drilled and tapped my own holes. my eyes work like a charm. the black paint is only a problem with imps as they use weaker eyes. the cocker has an adjustable sensetivity on their eye and i shoot the dark shelled big ball with little (read: zero) problems. only time my gun has had any problems is from playing in the rain the eye cover is a tad bit too loose to give you 100% reliability (but epoxy fixes that)

2. timing is not nearly the time consuming problem you make it out to be. with online guides in the cocker forum, one could time his gun without EVER shooting it. and worse comes to worse, the gun has default factory settings which are guarentee'd to work up to 16 bps. plus the karni comes with QEV's. stock karni you are accurate on efficiency but with a $5 madman spring kit and after you sweet spot your reg, its quite easy to shoot a case of paint on a 68/45, something that can only be achieved on trixes with expensive bolt kits.

3. nice way to play down weight difference, but i agree as long as the gun isn't a brick, weight's not a huge factor

4. the karni lpr comes stock between 100 and 120 psi, but it can easily be dropped low enough to pinch paint. that and the Dye trix runs at freakishly high pressures stock(can also be lowered out of the box), so if the eyes do go out it can and prolly will chop.

5. purchasing internals will do you nothing. the internals in the karni are good and the extra .5 bps and 20 shots per tank fill aren't worth the money on any gun. and it states right in the comparison that the trix needs new internals (the bolt kit practically replaces everything inside the gun) as well.

ultimately, i think that the comparison is a bit misinformed, and shows some subjectivity (price and weight) but otherwise is pretty good.

and you can call me biased because i own a cocker, but im lookcing to trade it for a trix as you read this.
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Old 10-01-2004, 05:44 AM #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Llama08
just a tad bit biased, but that's to be expected ( I wouldn't expect a vs. trhead to be nearly as objective in the cocker forum)

1. eye doesn't need to be "installed precisely" i measured my gun, taped down my template, drilled and tapped my own holes. my eyes work like a charm. the black paint is only a problem with imps as they use weaker eyes. the cocker has an adjustable sensetivity on their eye and i shoot the dark shelled big ball with little (read: zero) problems. only time my gun has had any problems is from playing in the rain the eye cover is a tad bit too loose to give you 100% reliability (but epoxy fixes that)

2. timing is not nearly the time consuming problem you make it out to be. with online guides in the cocker forum, one could time his gun without EVER shooting it. and worse comes to worse, the gun has default factory settings which are guarentee'd to work up to 16 bps. plus the karni comes with QEV's. stock karni you are accurate on efficiency but with a $5 madman spring kit and after you sweet spot your reg, its quite easy to shoot a case of paint on a 68/45, something that can only be achieved on trixes with expensive bolt kits.

3. nice way to play down weight difference, but i agree as long as the gun isn't a brick, weight's not a huge factor

4. the karni lpr comes stock between 100 and 120 psi, but it can easily be dropped low enough to pinch paint. that and the Dye trix runs at freakishly high pressures stock(can also be lowered out of the box), so if the eyes do go out it can and prolly will chop.

5. purchasing internals will do you nothing. the internals in the karni are good and the extra .5 bps and 20 shots per tank fill aren't worth the money on any gun. and it states right in the comparison that the trix needs new internals (the bolt kit practically replaces everything inside the gun) as well.

ultimately, i think that the comparison is a bit misinformed, and shows some subjectivity (price and weight) but otherwise is pretty good.

and you can call me biased because i own a cocker, but im lookcing to trade it for a trix as you read this.

Ok, a few things. He and I have owned several cockers each, including E blades. We wrote this up as more of a general cocker comparison, but used the Karni as the name. Most cockers don't have qev's or fantastic internals that help increase speed, efficiency, and smoothness/kick. Internals are a big factor in a cocker because despite what you say, valves, hammers, lugs, and springs matter. So does your ram. If you want to rip 22 BPS, you better upgrade to a besales or nexus ram. I agree with you that timing isn't that hard, but it is more time consuming and must be more precise than it is with a matrix. This is a vs. thread, so the cocker is essentially more difficult to tune when compared to a matrix. Another thing is the eye. Cocker eyes are more finicky and tempermental (at least the ones I had), and only work perfectly sometimes. Bottom line is that reflective eyes are outdated technology and brakebeam is the only way to go. Don't you think it's much less hassle and more reliable that you don't have to test your paint color and eye sensitivity before each day of play? Brakebeam senses any paint no matter what. You continue to say that a Dye trix has freakishly high pressure? I'm sorry, but 175 psi going into your inline isn't freakishly high pressure. I don't know where you get your information, but it's just plain wrong. Matrices will not chop ever if you set your lpr correctly. Most people are too lazy to do this perfectly, even tho it takes but a minute. My matrices do not chop and 3 of them don't have eyes. I've owned my share of cockers, and I know that they will chop from time to time no matter what. A matrix is different. And as for internals, a matrix doesn't really have internals to refer to as a cocker does. It has a noid, manifold, and gasket. A bolt kit isn't considered an internal really, and the noide/gasket/manifold are all the same and don't ever need to be changed/upgraded. Bottom line is that the cocker review is pretty accurate and not really that biased. We've owned our fair share of cockers and found that they just do not hold up when compared head to head with a matrix. The cocker just has too many moving parts and too many things that can potentially go wrong and give you problems. From my past experience, cockers can be very tempermental and cause problems even when they are maintained and set up perfectly. Don't get me wrong, this can happen with any gun, but I've experienced far less problems with my matrices than I ever did with my cockers. Cockers are great guns, but just not quite on the same level as the matrix.

Ok, I'm done with my rant. I hope you see why this isn't that biased and that we did try our best to be accurate. It's not like we just wrote the review without experience on these guns. Arvin and I have owned pretty much every high end marker, and we have found matrices to be pretty much the best.
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Old 10-01-2004, 08:44 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by crispy830
Ok, a few things. He and I have owned several cockers each, including E blades. We wrote this up as more of a general cocker comparison, but used the Karni as the name.

Then you should simply change it to Matrix VS. Cocker. the title is misleading. thats like saying Karni VS. DM4 but just using matrices in general.
Most cockers don't have qev's or fantastic internals that help increase speed, efficiency, and smoothness/kick. Internals are a big factor in a cocker because despite what you say, valves, hammers, lugs, and springs matter. So does your ram. If you want to rip 22 BPS, you better upgrade to a besales or nexus ram.

As mentioned above, ive you made this about cockers in general, this would be a valid point, but the Karni does infact have good internals, a smooth ram, and QEVs. my teammates karni has his settings now that it caps at about 24 bps, and he can hit that (with bounce) without any fluctuation in velocity.

I agree with you that timing isn't that hard, but it is more time consuming and must be more precise than it is with a matrix. This is a vs. thread, so the cocker is essentially more difficult to tune when compared to a matrix.
Okay, i can see where you are coming from on this one.

Another thing is the eye. Cocker eyes are more finicky and tempermental (at least the ones I had), and only work perfectly sometimes. Bottom line is that reflective eyes are outdated technology and brakebeam is the only way to go. Don't you think it's much less hassle and more reliable that you don't have to test your paint color and eye sensitivity before each day of play? Brakebeam senses any paint no matter what.

I never change my eye readings unless changing from one extreme to the other (black big ball to bright orange evil) and this can just be chocked up to an extra 20 seconds of time taken up, as the timing is.

You continue to say that a Dye trix has freakishly high pressure? I'm sorry, but 175 psi going into your inline isn't freakishly high pressure. I don't know where you get your information, but it's just plain wrong. Matrices will not chop ever if you set your lpr correctly. Most people are too lazy to do this perfectly, even tho it takes but a minute. My matrices do not chop and 3 of them don't have eyes.

i said freakishly high out of the box, and the hpr can be lowered to sub 200 psi, and the lpr to sub 100 psi without ever changing anything else. I'm on my 3rd cocker now, and once i had nice internals (which the karni comes with stock) I lowered the lpr pressure to the point that it could pinch the same ball at least 10 time before breaking it. as well as with matrices, many people are too lazy to set their cocker right even tho its as simple as adjusting a trix lpr (same method, infact)

I've owned my share of cockers, and I know that they will chop from time to time no matter what. A matrix is different. And as for internals, a matrix doesn't really have internals to refer to as a cocker does. It has a noid, manifold, and gasket. A bolt kit isn't considered an internal really, and the noide/gasket/manifold are all the same and don't ever need to be changed/upgraded. Bottom line is that the cocker review is pretty accurate and not really that biased. We've owned our fair share of cockers and found that they just do not hold up when compared head to head with a matrix.

once again, this is true if you turn it into a general debate against cockers, but a Karni is different as it needs 0 upgrades out of the box.
The cocker just has too many moving parts and too many things that can potentially go wrong and give you problems. From my past experience, cockers can be very tempermental and cause problems even when they are maintained and set up perfectly.

This is true, due to the many joints, couplings and whatnot things have a tendency to work loose and a cocker does need some more maintenance to keep in perfect condition.
Don't get me wrong, this can happen with any gun, but I've experienced far less problems with my matrices than I ever did with my cockers.
Which can be contributed to the fact a matrix has like 1 moving part. And i will never disagree that the matrix is probably the most easily maintained marker made right now.

Cockers are great guns, but just not quite on the same level as the matrix.
I agree that the majority of autocockers out there couldn't hang with even a stock trix. but once you get higher end (i.e. raced and aced freeflow, karnivore, ebladed V2) i believe a well kept cocker will out perform most, if not all paintball guns.

Ok, I'm done with my rant. I hope you see why this isn't that biased and that we did try our best to be accurate.

yes, i do. and if you did change it to the Matrix VS. Cocker then used the karni as an example, everthing i thought biased wouldn't be.
It's not like we just wrote the review without experience on these guns. Arvin and I have owned pretty much every high end marker, and we have found matrices to be pretty much the best.
matrices are pretty good, i agree. that happens to be why im looking into buying one (or possibly trading my cocker for one)
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Old 10-01-2004, 09:34 PM #37
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evil pimp vs matrix..
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Old 10-01-2004, 10:04 PM #38
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you mean a pimpulse?

just look at the impulse comparison, the pimp is a impy with custom body, board, eyes, lpr, etc.....
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Old 10-01-2004, 10:42 PM #39
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hmm but it really isnt
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Old 10-02-2004, 12:58 AM #40
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Re: you mean a pimpulse?

Quote:
Originally posted by matrixman55
just look at the impulse comparison, the pimp is a impy with custom body, board, eyes, lpr, etc.....
yeh, its an imp with BETTER board, eyes, lpr, trigger, ram, stock barrel, etc.
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Old 10-02-2004, 02:01 AM #41
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The Pimp basically uses Bushmaster boards and eyes.
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Old 10-02-2004, 01:23 PM #42
mulletmadness
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Matrix Vs Freestyle?
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