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Old 09-19-2004, 09:33 PM #22
Vlar
 
 
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I plan on upgrading my Sim-5 trigger to the electric when it is developed/released. The Sim-5 trigger should look like the real MP5 trigger with the Safe, Semi, Burst, and Auto options on the switch. Other than that, I don't care much for electric triggers.
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Old 09-19-2004, 09:45 PM #23
Xnuke
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There have been numerous complaints on Ariakons forum about rapid firing, recocking problems and bent connecting pins.
If 3 of 4 from one shipment wouldn't work it's a problem. We haven't heard from the customer who received the 4th one so for all we know his may be bad.
We do not know the total numbers and I'm sure Ariakon wouldn't say, but every one we've sold (except one we haven't heard about) appears to have problems. They could not be adjusted to work. Two were returned for credit and 2 were returned with markers for repairs. One marker was sent out with internal damage from the rapid firing and one was returned to us from Ariakon after being "repaired" with internal damage. It wouldn't even cock when we got it back so where did the damage occur?

If it takes a picture to convince someone we will get one. The others were taken care of by the purchasers so we don't know what the outcome was. There are still a number of people over on the forum trying to get problems resolved.

Having to pay to send back the markers for adjustments is bad customer service. Putting out a product that may cause serious internal damage is unacceptable.

Marketing the LCD frame without a tournament lock is poor design and oversight.

If you thing you've put me in my place your not dealing with reality. I'm doing exactly what I told Ariakon I would do and that would be to tell people the facts about the trigger frame problems and their lack of customer service. I can do it by posting and thru PM's.

Here's a quote from ADMIN:
For those of you who don't know him, Xnuke runs http://www.shorepaintballsupplies.com which is one of the original Armotech dealers. Shore has a reputation for excellent service and is a great source for gear to feed your paintball habit.

I can't be all that bad if he said that.

Last edited by Xnuke : 09-21-2004 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 09-19-2004, 10:11 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
Here's a quote from ADMIN:
For those of you who don't know him, Xnuke runs http://www.shorepaintballsupplies.com which is one of the original Armotech dealers. Shore has a reputation for excellent service and is a great source for gear to feed your paintball habit.

I can't be all that bad if he said that.
He said that because just like all the other dealers he had to kiss your arse. You probably wouldn't want to see some of the conversations I've had with him about you, but suffice it to say, you haven't been very well liked around the Ariakon offices for a VERY VERY long time.


Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
There are still a number of people over on the forum trying to get problems resolved.
Actually most all of the people who have actually called Ariakon about not getting their triggers to work properly were simply walked through how to configure it. The problem is, people don't read the friggin manual and thus assume it's broken when they slap it on and it doesn't work. Ariakon is thinking about discontinuing the line simply because people can't read the manual and install it properly on their own.


Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
Marketing the LCD frame without a tournament lock is poor design and oversight.
I don't recall Ariakon EVER stating that there was a tournament lock on the SIM-4 anyways. Most people wouldn't try to take a SIM-4 INTO a tournament, and most people who do buy it just want to be able to turn their marker into a full auto to complete the who mil-sim look & feel. However, that's a moot point. It seems like you're just digging for things to complain about with it and it's lack of tourny lock was just one more thing you could b1tch about.


Now then to start dealing with the rest of your "Argument" again. So you had a shipment of 4 and you never heard from the person who bought your 4th again? Then how did you return 2 for credit and have 2 returned on markers? If you could only send in 3 for repairs how did you get 4 back. Likewise you still insist that these triggers were defective despite the fact that they worked fine when Ariakon checked them and adjusted them. Finally, you act as though all 4 of the triggers were defective when you say yourself for all we know the 4th trigger is defective. I don't know about you, but if I got a broken trigger from a store, I'd call about it. I think we can probably assume that he was actually smart enough to READ THE MANUAL and configure it.

Last edited by WarHamster : 09-19-2004 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 09-19-2004, 10:11 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
Here's a quote from ADMIN:
For those of you who don't know him, Xnuke runs http://www.shorepaintballsupplies.com which is one of the original Armotech dealers. Shore has a reputation for excellent service and is a great source for gear to feed your paintball habit.

I can't be all that bad if he said that. [/b]
Everyone changes over time, including you. I have seen people go from jerks to very helpful members on the forum, and in your case the other way around. I do know that this is not the opinion of Admin at the present time and has not been his opinion for a long time.

If I really wanted, I could dig up a quote from years ago when Brass Eagle was a leader in the paintball world, even though that are now they manufacture what is considered the cheapest products in the industry.

If you are having problems, along with a handful of other people that came to the forum, that hardly seems like a design flaw. While you recieved 4 triggers, there have been many others shipped out. If Ariakon doesn't consider it a general problem, then I don't believe it is.

I understand that you could not get it to function properly on a Sim-4 you had available to test. Did you also have the manual for the trigger where it has the maintence directions available as well?

The tourney lock on the LCD was an honest mistake and was corrected as soon as it was noticed. I am sure they would be willing to work with you on getting you an LED if you purchased an LCD for the tourney lock.

It's funny that you think we are not in reality. It looks to us like you are the one not in reality.
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Old 09-19-2004, 11:23 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
We do not know the total numbers and I'm sure Ariakon wouldn't say,


And how many customers have you had that have said they wouldn't come back to your store and why? I'm sure there have been a few. Point is, why would any company give people numbers to throw back in their face. Not one company I know of would do this. Not like Ariakon is any different in this respect, which, this statement seemst to alude to.

Quote:
They could not be adjusted to work.


...on the customer's markers. Ariakon got them to work on demo guns. The issue is either with the installer on your end or with the fit of that specific trigger on that specific marker.

Quote:
One marker was sent out with internal damage from the rapid firing and one was returned to us from Ariakon after being "repaired" with internal damage. It wouldn't ven cock when we got it back so where did the damage occur?


What was the condition of the internals when it was sent to Ariakon? Was Ariakon instructed to inspec the MARKER for issues? What was Ariakon instructed to check? After all, many times if a customer service tech gets something in like that and all the note says is "Electro trigger will not work on marker. Gun will not stay cocked with electro trigger on it." the tech is just going to look at the electro trigger. There were times when we had people tell us we had damaged certain parts of their product when, in reality, the part they "claim" we damaged we never even touched.

Quote:
If it takes a picture to convince someone we will get one.
If you don't have one of the condition of the marker BEFORE it went out, there will be no convincing. Gotta have before and after shots...sorry.

Quote:
Having to pay to send back the markers for adjustments is bad customer service.


Whenever I have bought electronic gear and read the waranty card, every one i can remember says nothing about them reinbursing the cost of me sending the product to them for warranty repairs. All of them mention that for warranty information the product needs to be sent to them. This practice isn't bad customer service, it's standard. The reason being is simple, especially with paintball guns and like products. It's a matter of "claim". The consumer "claims" this marker is defective and the defect is under warranty. However, and I saw this working in a customer service department MANY times, as often as not when the product arrives at the manufacturer's for "warranty" service, it is determined that customer neglect or misuse is the real culpret and the repair, in fact, would not be covered under warranty. Some companies, and from what I've seen Ariakon included, will still repair these problems since the customer went to the trouble to send it in even though they are not required to. This IS good customer service but things like that you NEVER hear about.

Quote:
Putting out a product that may cause serious internal damage is unacceptable.


And I'm sure that's what they designed it to do. A product that is not installed right or a batch that, for whatever reason, has a manufacturing issue that causes this is excusable. It's called human error and they will happen. Whether it is the customer's doing or the manufacturer, it is up to the manufacturer to do the best they can to make it right under reasonable conditions. In the early stages of detecting a possible production error, it may take a while for the company to find the source of the defect as well. This isn't the company's fault either. It's like with any of us. Something happens and our product doesn't perform like it should, it may takes us a number of differet tries and solutions to figure out what the problem is.

Quote:
Marketing the LCD frame without a tournament lock is poor design and oversight.


I agree with that, even if the marker isn't your average "tournament" marker. Most fields are not real sticklers about this so long as you act on your honor and don't use the other modes available to you. But for those who are not that fortunate to have such a field, ya, should be on there. Though I'm sure I wouldn't use language as strong as poor design, I would definately ask Ariakon to resolve this oversight.

Quote:
If you thing you've put me in my place your not dealing with reality.
Agree with this as well...even if we did "put you in your place" you'd never know it...and if by some chance you DID know it...you'd never admit it.

Quote:
I'm doing exactly what I told Ariakon I would do and that would be to tell people the facts about the trigger frame problems and their lack of customer service. I can do it by posting and thru PM's.


Yea...and? As I read this: "ARIAKON...you better do what I say because if not I will throw my considerable weight and prestege around by denouncing you and your product on every forum I can think of. You better think about it because you know what kind of importance my words have on the entire paintball buying public and your sales will suffer irrepairably because of it." I mean, after all this is why Armotech went out of business was because of your increadible boycotting campa...oh...wait a minute...my bad.

Quote:
Here's a quote from ADMIN:
For those of you who don't know him, Xnuke runs http://www.shorepaintballsupplies.com which is one of the original Armotech dealers. Shore has a reputation for excellent service and is a great source for gear to feed your paintball habit.

I can't be all that bad if he said that.
Show me one manufacturer that has ever posted: "Oh, yea, that dealer of our's is a HUGE pain in the rear and we hate dealing with him. But if you want to, good luck because you're going to need it." Yea, show me one endorsement like that from another manufacturer and I'll believe that this is what Ariakon REALLY thought about you.

Last edited by Robotech : 09-19-2004 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:07 AM #27
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I've got $5 that says XNuke stay true to form and executes one of his four emergency plans in response to that Robo...

Plan A.) Completely ignore the offending post and continue discussing as though it was never made! "I'm not wrong if I don't acknowledge the proof that I am!"

Plan B.) Find minor errors in logic or flaws in unrelated subjects in the post and focus on those, acting as though it single handed destroys the primary argument and proves him right on everything.

Plan C.) Abandon this thread and dig up old unrelated threads involving the offending poster. Then proceed to point out every possible error you can find in hopes of somehow discrediting them and proving they're not worth listening to (whether they proved you wrong or not)

Plan D.) Find another forum that none of the Ariakon/Armotech crew know about and proceed to post this thread again there, where he can do so without resistance.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:43 AM #28
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I'm afraid to have entered so late into this argument. But I've just recently sobered from the two-day bash celebrating the termination of your term of service with Ariakon, Xnuke. But seeing how you're more of a wart than a zit I see I'll never be rid of you. However I'm afraid it'll never be easy to refrain from questioning your lineage, gender, Intelligence or even your membership amongst the human race.

I only count it a blessing that your term as a toilet swabber on board your "nuclear sub" has perhaps rendered you impotent and sterile, preventing just a little more rubbish from the Jersey shore. Every bit DOES count after all.

Now before you waste your last brain cell trying to understand even the simplest of these prior insults I've dealt upon you, let's return to the subject at hand Corky. Congrats at the special Olympics BTW.

The E-trig does indeed have some bad pieces floating about the lot. However, Ariakon has spent the time and effort to receive those defective frames and return them as promptly as they could.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I checked, turn-around over-night was not cheap. Now why would a company take an order, pick their noses, and then spend an additional amount of cash (gratis no less) on having that piece back in your shop in relatively no time.

My dear Sir! As a Master and Patron to the Art form, I'm sure you'd know that true ineptness and duplicity(that means two face and you are two faced ) is heralded by slow service response. Why finish something today that they need tomorrow? Look to SmartParts for a better example: send something in and they sit on it til you get tired of asking about repairs and just beg for it back. --Which reminds me, I'd heard you were on the outs with them as well along with Armotech and Ariakon. So I guess we can expect a fresh display of BE's hottest fall products?

As it was however in this particular case of TWO individuals on the Ariakon forums that are suffering problems with their e-trigs...I know both these individuals very well and speak to one or both of them on a daily basis. I have been up to date with them this entire time on the trigger issue. One user single complaint was your bad info. Yours. You offer up solutions, but withhold. Admin makes a suggestion and you ask they refrain.

“Here's fair warning. Every post made by you or the rest of the pack gives me another opportunity to state that the products were defective and very likely caused serious damage to the SIM4's they were installed on....Another opportunity to say they couldn't fix the problem and returned a marker in worse condition than they received it.”

Then the blame is then placed upon the staff as misinterpretation? Are we to believe then that these are but confused children? Should we not have a right to persist in correct information while at the same time, defend ourselves against unprovoked attacks in different matters? You should be ashamed of brow beating children then. But then again, I too enjoy chili whipping less sapient life forms. “So if someone wants to talk about customer service and integrity why not address that.” Because it is the role of the consumer, not the cockroach that feeds on the crumbs.

Rather than telling people about how your good name was sullied by irritated patrons, how about the fact that you repeatedly insulted the forum moderator and its most respected users. The Mil-Sim community relies on its veterans and gear monkeys to help junior players get into the sport. Perhaps if you contributed to the lifestyle you might understand why we all despise you! But I digress…not quite unlike your genes into the primordial ooze.

The fact is, Ariakon has noted the existence of these issues (at the same time as they are trying to emerge from the problems of last year, no less…) and is otherwise more than some other companies that prefer to maintain image rather than customer satisfaction. Furthermore, They’ve been trying to help users fix these errors and I’m more than sure compensation will be met. Now, just to be fair…you know I cannot waste a good opportunity to include your own efforts in compensation. I mean that is why you were so adamant on the launcher issue: size roxxors your world. Psychologically, we can summarily include this as dispensation considering those joyful years you spent locked within a long…cylindrical…vessel…filled with….se(a)men? But then again it is from that experience that we have to thank for your chosen method of debate: cry foul and then pout. Let us not forget the infamous, “wait-until-they’re-on-the-ground kick and run” maneuver.
Remember this: No body ever gets fired for good reasons. You were served your pink slip on the basis that you have the social skills of a Brazilian banana slug. You are a belligerent tumor on the @ss of the paintball society and you persistently push yourself away from every major producer in the sport today. I wouldn’t be surprised if you suddenly found yourself served notice for loss of the Tippmann market as well.
You’ve tried to call into question my intentions for printing the material that I offer the public. You claim no bias and only the best intentions for EVERYBODY…ya know they slammed the hell outta Lennon for saying the Beatles were bigger than Jesus…and you’re certainly not as popular. But let’s have some of my favorite Xnuke hits:

“As for credibility, Armorer; in my mind you have none. Maybe the fact that I can see thru your meaningless drivel makes you feel insecure. If you got paid by the word you would be rich. If you got paid by originality or content you would be broke.”

“Maybe you don't care what I have to offer, but maybe Ariakon does. Posting advice that could lead to someones mask being damaged and lead to an eye injury would make them party to a lawsuit; especially if they failed to correct it when pointed out.”

“ ‘Now that it is clear you obviously have a personal issue with me. Talk about a conflict of interest.... Any further statements from you sir are hereby recognized as harassment. You have been warned.’
I consider this to be another example of derogatory, inflammatory and threatening posts from this individual. I have done nothing to start this except try and correct errors in some posts. I want him suspended or removed from the forum. Also, if there are any more posts by his supporters that make statements about my reputation as a dealer I will consider it as slander.”

“I don't have to back up an OPINION. I also don't have to back up a statement that says players need to check the fields rules for restrictions on using the grenade lanuchers. You need to read posts before jumping all over someone. I also didn't mention any particular names. My OPINION applies to all types of launchers.”

My favorite…
“I will not be chased off the forum because you don't like what I have to say.”
…Because even releasing/firing your @ss didn’t get rid of you.

And lastily on your immortal words on field regulations:
”If you want the truth contact the fields themselves.”

In that same grain, if any player has any concerns it is up to them for them to research their selection before purchasing it.
Since you fail to comprehend the idea of “the customer is always right,” you must not have heard of “caveat emptor” or “Let the Buyer Beware.” Making ANY purchase is a risk, and it is subsequently and simply the nature of things for their to be some issues with some select pieces of hardware.
When the transmission went out on one our F-150 FX4’s, Ford replaced the offending part gratis and supplied a waiting substitute vehicle. Likewise, Ariakon, ensured by the product’s warranty, will equally meet a dissatisfied customer’s complaint…but they still have to contact the company.
I have never in my life heard of someone over the age of 15 (let alone a dealer!) behaving in such an unbecoming, unprofessional manner as you. You are a paranoid, delusional sociopath. You complain of such woes when you only bring such matters upon yourself. A subsequent martyr for your own self-gratification, an “empty gesture” of a “lost cause.” I’m sure Mel Gibson and you would be very well met on the theological side of things.
You brush off the fact that you issue a boycott…on another company that dropped you as a dealer. Yet here you are again, different company, same game. “Exactly what I expected from you. Nothing at all to say about the issue. Just personal attacks…I knew this would happen.” Geez, I must be psychic. But then again, you’re deaf.
“For those of you who don't know him, Xnuke runs http://www.shorepaintballsupplies.com which is one of the original Armotech dealers. Shore has a reputation for excellent service and is a great source for gear to feed your paintball habit.
I can't be all that bad if he said that.”
But Earlier…
“We were not bounced by Armotech. We never bought a single item from Armotech.us. We dealt with painballgear.ca until they got screwed by armotech.”


Why laud a statement that you “debunked” earlier on?
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Old 09-20-2004, 05:36 PM #29
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Just as a case in point...here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about in regards to "Warranty Repair". Here is a link to a company that has actually posted such issues on their web site.

There are 10 cases of "Warranty" issues with the products on this page. Each of these items was sent back with the customer telling the company the issues were due to a defect in the engine from the manufacturer. Mind you, these are the WORST cases they saw. They received engines like this on a daily basis but not always this bad. Enjoy.

http://www.hpiracing.com/engines.htm

This is why companies make you pay to ship the item back to them.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:17 PM #30
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We're not talking about improper care or maintenance here. These trigger frames were fresh from the factory. They could not be adjusted using guidance from Ariakon. One came back damaged from Ariakon after warranty repair. Neither gun was ever used with the electronic trigger frame because they didn't work.
Not only didn't they work, but they caused internal damage to the guns- bent connecting pin, scoring on inside of the body and jammed striker.

Don't cloud the issue.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:24 PM #31
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From what you have said, the marker was also in the posession of the customer for 3 hours after it was again returned to you. You also mentioned that the customer tried to get it to work again during that time. Persoanlly, I am much more inclined to believe that the user would have unintentionally damaged their marker when trying to make the trigger work than the triger doing the damage.

The bent connecting pin is not much of an issue. I know of several people who have bent connecting pins and have markers that work perfectly. Due to the amount of stress placed on the internals of the marker, the pin can bend slightly. This is a non-issue.

Did you make sure that the marker was using a low velocity spring? If the high velocity spring was in, that can place enough resistance on the hammer during cocking that it won't go back far enough to catch the sear, making the marker rapidly fire.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:57 PM #32
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Jammed Striker, bent pin, and scoring isn't so much a force issue, as these are all caused by the same thing:
The connector pin not beeing installed all the way.
Did your client clean and oil this marker before use as you should do with any marker before even test firing?
Highly unlikely. Even so, an inspection is noteworthy of any marker before use, it is quite possible that sometime after being shipped from Ariakon that the connector rod slid slightly down...Or did you futz with it?

As Vlar pointed out, these are non-issues from inexperienced mishandling of the marker, not a company flaw.
Try again, you're STILL wrong.
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Old 09-21-2004, 02:51 PM #33
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Nice try. One worked fine without problems and without damage before installing electronic trigger frame. The other was returned from Ariakon after repair and was inoperable. According to the customer, it never worked. He got it back from Ariakon and within a couple of hours it was on its' way back to us via UPS. We took it out of the box and it wouldn't cock.

As far as cleaning and oiling a marker before initial use; I've rejected that statement by Armotech and I' ll reject that statement now. When someone pays $400-$600 for these they ought to be tested, ready to go.
That kind of statement is intended to cover someone's laziness or attempt to pinch pennies. They make enough money on these to expect that. If they're assembled in CA there is no excuse for not shipping them out ready to take to the field, shooting at the right velocity. I thought it was a joke for them to tell customers to shoot a couple of thousand rounds or leave it cocked for a few weeks before using.
No one should be expected to disassemble clean, inspect, lubricate or cut the velocity spring.
Certainly they shouldn't be expected to ship one back to get an accessory like the electronic trigger frame to work.
Did your parents disassemble the last dishwasher, washer or dryer they bought? Did you take apart the DVD when you got it home to check wires and screws were all tight. I THINK NOT

Last edited by Xnuke : 09-21-2004 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:04 PM #34
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My mother was a dishwasher and I resent that last statement!

I now get to turn a phrase you've tried to imply with my own job!
"You're comparing apples to oranges."
The company Armotech, does not manufacture the SIM marker, though Ariakon does. The original line were Mil-sim for police training. That's why the high tensile spring.
However, they now get shipped using/with Low Velocty springs, so that whole month this is right out.

But more to the point, oh, "bastion" of safety and consumer health. Whenever I have bought a brand new firearm in the last.....14 years? I've always been required to break down the firearm and clean it. Whenever I've bought power tools, I've been required to take the time to inspect them...very often even lubricating said implements.
A $300-$400+ marker of any real worth does NOT come packaged in a sealed plastic carton. And yes, there are better markers than your beloved Stingray.
In ensuring their products arrive safely, despite however long it sits in storage/stock, Ariakon preps markers as best they can. It does not mean that one cannot get damaged in transit. It does not mean that the packing itself may not leave dust and miniscule debris inside.
A marker is not a DVD player. It is not a Washing machine. It is a pneumatic tool and there are health issues involved. A child is likely to carry a $300-400$ marker than somebody of sufficient age who knows how to use an allen wrench. Likewise, they should have enough common sense that you look to see all four tires are inflated before you start backing out of the driveway. Sure, a fuse or bulb can blow but that's Murphy in his shining glory. You find the problem and you take the time to fix it.

BTW, I noticed in your PBreview post you included pictures. I ask that you remove one because it shows a table vice....and we all know that a Table vice has no purpose in cleaning markers.
Keep trying, you almost made a valid point, but you're still short on showing anyone: A) you're not an incompetent, disgruntled EX-employee and B) Ariakon's to blame on any of the issues you've mentioned.
Let's put on our thinking caps Ex-nuke and give it the old college go.
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Last edited by Armorer : 09-21-2004 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:12 PM #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
Don't cloud the issue
Uh, that is PART of the issue. You say it isn't neglegence but what I'm saying is that may be the reason for part of the problem. Just because YOU SAY it isn't part of the issue doesn't make it so...

Quote:
Originally posted by Xnuke
Nice try. One worked fine without problems and without damage before installing electronic trigger frame. The other was returned from Ariakon after repair and was inoperable. According to the customer, it never worked. He got it back from Ariakon and within a couple of hours it was on its' way back to us via UPS. We took it out of the box and it wouldn't cock.

As far as cleaning and oiling a marker before initial use; I've rejected that statement by Armotech and I' ll reject that statement now. When someone pays $400-$600 for these they ought to be tested, ready to go.
That kind of statement is intended to cover someone's laziness or attempt to pinch pennies. They make enough money on these to expect that. If they're assembled in CA there is no excuse for not shipping them out ready to take to the field, shooting at the right velocity. I thought it was a joke for them to tell customers to shoot a couple of thousand rounds or leave it cocked for a few weeks before using.
No one should be expected to disassemble clean, inspect, lubricate or cut the velocity spring.
Certainly they shouldn't be expected to ship one back to get an accessory like the electronic trigger frame to work.

(Italics by Robotech) Did your parents disassemble the last dishwasher, washer or dryer they bought? Did you take apart the DVD when you got it home to check wires and screws were all tight. I THINK NOT
Oh, but you do, Xnuke, you do. Did you get styrofoam in your dishwasher? Wasn't the little doors that hold the soap in place taped shut? Wasn't there taped areas on that DVD player to protect it from damage that you HAD to remove to get it to work properly? Don't you have to install those wires and properly set it up with your T.V. set to make it work? Why aren't the wires already installed? Why aren't the batteries already in the remote? Why would you have to take that piece of paper out of the player that protects the head? These things are done to protect these items. Also, neither of the items you mention have any parts that REQUIRE maintenance. They are use and forget items. You install them...then you're done. Now...let's talk items that do require maintenance...chain saws...gotta oil them when you get them. Lawn mowers...AFTER you assemble them you have to maintain them too...even the riding ones require you check certain items and make sure they are tight. Treadmills...gotta spray silicone on them when you get them so the belt moves correctly. Bikes...some assembly and oiling required...shall I go on? If you're going to compare something like that, how about you compare something that requires maintenance and not a home electronic device that is mainly plug and play.

Checking, cleaning, and lubing these parts are part of normal maintenance to your marker. A marker sitting in a warehouse or shelf somewhere can have the o-rings dry out a bit. The company may try to get all the shavings from the manufacturing process out of the marker before it leaves thier factory but sometimes they can slip by. Things can come loose or be damaged during shipment as well. Screws should be checked because, unlike your dishwasher, they are not permanantly thread locked because at some point in time they may need to be removed for maintenance. Perhaps you think it easy to accomplish such feats in manufacturing but it isn't...it isn't at all. So you can grip all you want about having to do these things, but if you think you can do it better I await your company's first marker.

Stuff like having the customer check it out is called PRECAUTIONARY measures. It is kind of like special ops shooters when they jump. First, they pack their own chute and usually tripple check that. Then, in the plane they check all their gear. Then, they have their swim buddy go over all their gear again. Why? Do they do it because they don't know what they are doing, are lazy, or are inept. No, they do it because they can accept the fact that they are human and CAN overlook something. Having someone else check it out ensures it is correct. Same here. You have something going down a production line things can be missed even with quality control people firing and checking the markers' velocity. That along with the other things I mentioned are why it is always a good idea to go through this check when you get your marker. Besides, it also helps you learn how your new marker comes apart so that way you're not doing it for the first time in the field.


BTW, when I received my SIM-5...I cleaned it and put it back together EXACTLY how they had it...took it outside...set up the chrono...and bang...280. Every shot thereafter was between 270 and 285 running off Co2. And it was obvious they had set it that way at the factory because the velocity cap had not been completely screwed in (it was out by about 1.5mm) so that the marker would shoot legal.

Back to the topic, HOWEVER, you say yourself that the customer got it and couldn't get the marker to cock. Now, I'm sure that the customer is going to be 100% honest with you and wouldn't take that marker apart, try to fix it himself, jam it up, put it back together, and after the course of oh...say...the three hours it takes him to do all this calls you and tells you that he took it out of the box and couldn't cock it. That could NEVER happen.

Look, you see that post I made with the engines...did you notice case number 2? The customer took that engine apart (because the way we received it, you would NEVER get it to run) and never mentioned it. Whether he didn't mention that on purpose or just overlooked it is unknown, but we do know that MANY customers would damage their engine and deny that they every touched it even though we could piece together the evidence to the contrary. Now, granted, we never went into all that with them, you just don't do that. But more often than not we turned down their "warranty repair" because of something they very obviously did.

I'm not saying this is the case with this issue...but I am saying that things like this are taken into account by all manufacturers, not just Ariakon and happen probably more than most people think. I find it hard to believe that a company would damage a marker, whether intentionally or unintentionally, and send it back knowing that it was not working unless they received it that way and were not instructed to check the marker, just the trigger.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:28 PM #36
Robotech
 
 
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: So. Cal.
 has been a member for 10 years
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You know Armorer...did anything strike you as odd in those pictures over on PBReview? Xnuke, aside from the pictures being so blurry they are almost impossible to tell what I'm looking at, on the second picture are you showing scratches there on the lower right side of the lower receiver tube where the striker slides into?

I ask because if that is what you are showing, now I KNOW someone put those there and they are not caused by the striker. How, you ask? Simple...the SIM-4, like the blow back markers I've seen, have a rubber stop between the striker and the velocity cap. This stop is about 10-15mm thick. With the WS and SIM-5 (haven't seen a SIM-4 to say one way or another but from that first picture it looks like it is) the receiver is made in such a way that even if the rubber stop was missing the connecting pin would hit the receiver stopping the bolt and striker before they went all the way to the velocity cap. Those scratches you are showing go all the way back to the threads of the velocity cap. That means the ONLY way those scratches could get there would be either someone installing or removing the hammer. Looks to me like there is a possibility that the hammer was jammed and someone tried to pry it free.

The first picture seems to confirm this. After all, if something is sliding back and forth in a linear motion (as you suggest in your first post as what has happened here because of the electric triggers) the gouges will also be linear and in the same direction as the movement of the object creating them (again, look at the post I made with the link to the engine page...there are plenty of gouges in those example that perfectly illustrate this point) not curve like the gouges in both of these pictures. Also, since you can see this gouge very clearly through that opening it would stand to reason that this was also caused by someone trying to get the striker out of the marker.

Now, I am fairly certain that if someone at the manufacturer did this that the marker would have been replaced. After all, by sending it back they KNOW they are either going to see it again or something like this will happen.

The next piece of logic I offer up is this. If someone tried to removed the jammed hammer, how did it jam? You mention that it is because of the o-ring issue. Are you saying that the manufacturer jammed it, couldn't fix it, and then went "Oh, just send it back like that?" First, why wouldn't they try focing it out from the FRONT of the receiver where they are less likely to cause damage like that between two moving surfaces? The front of the striker is a far better place to 1. apply maximum force for removal and 2. least likely to cause any damage to the marker. Again, they must know that they will be seeing it again and/or will hear about it someway, especially if it is YOU they are dealing with. So, again, I highly doubt that was the case. If they received it that way, they should have (and am not saying this is their policy or that they did, indeed do this, but SHOULD have) either called and informed the customer of the issue or included a note explaining that they worked on the trigger but that the damage to the marker would not be under warranty IF they were sending it back in such a condition. Third possibility is the damage occured after the marker was returned (My bet) and thus why it was never mentioned before.

Just some things to think about.

Last edited by Robotech : 09-21-2004 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:58 PM #37
Ariakon
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Diego California
Paul,
Since you want to make this a public issue lets get the facts straight regarding the circumstances which led to your termination as a dealer.

The customer wanted to get his LED frame switched for an LCD, which we offered to do as long as his frame was in new un-used condition.

Upon receipt of the LED trigger and bottom half of the gun it was clearly not in new condition and not only was used but had signs of extended use. We notified both you and the customer directly that we would not be able to switch the trigger out due to the condition.

You told us you would deal with the customer and fight him if necessary because there was no way you were going to foot the bill for an LCD frame for him.

Much like taking a car to a dealership we inspect each return prior to beginning work so people like you can't claim we damaged something that was already damaged. In this case there was no visible damage to the internals of the marker, however there was wear and tear to the exterior indicating the marker had some use.

We then adjusted the frame and tested it prior to leaving our facility using the customers bottom half and several of our uppers. Since the customer only sent the bottom half & trigger frame this is all we could do.

We returned the product directly to the customer who promptly returned it back to you requesting a refund.

Shortly thereafter Liz from your office called us and began her tirade. She demanded that we refund you for brand new triggers you claimed were defective, which turned out not to be. She also demanded that we refund your shipping cost for sending these perfectly good triggers back to us.

Then she proceeded to accuse us of intentionally and deliberately damaging the above customer’s marker before returning it to him. It was at this point that Ken made the decision that your account would be cancelled. He informed her that we would refund you for the trigger frames that were in our possession at the time, and that your account was now terminated and you would be receiving a letter in the mail with formal notification. The call ended with Liz hanging up on Ken after saying that she would post on every forum until she got her full refund for everything she wanted including the shipping charges to send back the working triggers and the used gun which the customer sent back to you.

Now we don't like losing customers and we take it pretty seriously when we hear about events like these so we called the customer above whose gun we fixed and tried to find a way to satisfy him and regain his confidence. Turns out he has no problem with Ariakon and in fact intends to buy the same marker from another dealer. He informed us that his experience with your company was the problem and that the only problem he had with us was the fact that you were allowed to be a dealer.

On a side note lets recap some of your finer moments.

You repeatedly called in and demanded that we change our prices to include the shipping charges into the dealer prices of the products. Not only is it ridiculous for you to be calling and making demands, but you are trying to rip off other dealers who order much larger volume than you do by getting us to average the shipping charges into the product prices. This would in effect lower your cost since you only order 1-2 guns at a time and increase the cost for dealer who order 50-100 at a time. Real fair.

You called in and demanded we send you new boxes and packaging material so you could take used guns re-box them, then sell them as new. Of course you got no boxes.

You demanded access to the officers lounge because they were "talking" about you and you wanted to know what they were saying about you. You want access to that area? Earn it from the other members.

The clincher...You accused us of deliberately damaging a customers marker for no reason whatsoever. Why on earth would somebody do that? This is simply another example of your complete and utter stupidity.

If you spent half as much time running your business as you do posting in the forums and trying to weasel a few bucks out of every nook and cranny maybe you would not have these problems. Try servicing the customer instead of yourself; you'll get a lot farther.
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